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Old 9th June 2011, 07:46   #8181  |  Link
fairchild
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post
Wait, if you raise the brightness on the TV and gain back the black crush detail, then your display is not clipping. How did you calibrate it? Does it have an option for getting RGB 0-255 or 16-235? Mine has automatic and manual switching between both.

If you are using RGB full, and raising the brightness gains you back the black levels that you lost in the games, then you can use madVR in 0-255 in the very same way.
If I raise the brightness yes you gain back some of the black crush, but the difference is still night and day between RGB Limited and RGB Full when it comes to games. I noticed it in a dark part of a game recently (Portal 2), even with the brightness brought up I was losing shadow detail which was definitely there when I game on RGB Limited.

My TV's have no RGB options, the only option I know that has to do with the signals is the Black Level setting and I calibrated for it on Light. Changing it to Dark clips black more depending on the content.

And yes I could I suppose use 0-255 PC levels in MadVR + RGB Full in CCC but then I'd have to artificially raise the brightness from say 60 to 75, but still it clips BTB and WTW info.

Anyways, I'm perfectly happy with RGB Full + TV levels or RGB Limited + PC levels.
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Old 9th June 2011, 08:35   #8182  |  Link
pouyoux
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Originally Posted by pacemaker1000 View Post
Also when PDVD decoder is used i get a very blocky picture on mkv file using mpeg4
latest powerdvd 11 (11.0.1719) solves this issue
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Old 9th June 2011, 08:53   #8183  |  Link
Qaq
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Originally Posted by someone` View Post
@pacemaker1000 change back to 10.6 .
AMD has been fixing "compressed" FullRGB to real 0-255 since 11.2 only. I'd say: if you want proper PQ from madVR - get proper FullRGB transmission.
Some guys still use old AMD drivers with broken/compressed FullRGB. They use to set their displays to Limited (TV) levels to get more or less watchable picture. I did too until 11.2.
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Old 9th June 2011, 09:26   #8184  |  Link
Qaq
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Impression from newer madVRs. Tried 0.62 and Precision 3.
Watched 3 720 videos and 1 FullHD video. With FullHD video everything seems fine. If video has size < actual display size I can't get rid of impression that dynamic range is HUGE. I mean it looks like it's out of the range sometimes. I even had to change Luma scaler from Spline to SoftCubic50 and decrease contrast on my TV from 82 to 79. Didn't make mach comparisons with < 0.62 because it seems like I'm not the only one with similar impressions.
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Old 9th June 2011, 09:33   #8185  |  Link
e-t172
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madshi, feature request: is it possible to add an option to madVR which disables the video card's 3x1D CLUT when madVR is active, and re-enables it when playback is finished? In the same way that the refresh rate changer does it with the display mode.

The reason I ask is that I use the video card's CLUT for color correction for Windows applications (with an ICC profile), but using a 3dlut is best with madVR, so it would be great to allow switching automatically between the two. Right now if I use a 3dlut the video card's CLUT will apply on top of it, which is obviously suboptimal.

Fortunately, implementing this is very easy: just use GetDeviceGammaRamp and SetDeviceGammaRamp to save, clear, and restore the video card's 3x1D CLUT. There are also similar functions in IDirect3DDevice9 but I don't know if that's actually the same thing or not.

Last edited by e-t172; 9th June 2011 at 09:35.
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Old 9th June 2011, 11:14   #8186  |  Link
Mikey2
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Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
Yep, so that's why when I game (which is the only thing that I really care about getting black crush, I don't browse the net or do anything else where I'd notice the black crush) I usually just switch to RGB Limited or just up my Brightness on my TV. I think the best method is switch to RGB Limited when I'm going to game.
(To everyone: Please ignore if you do not want to hear about colorspaces...

Edit: I did find some use with the video I found for setting the gamma, so perhaps this post is more on-topic now. )


Have you tried looking at test patterns? This whole topic is confusing to most and it only exasperated by video-cards having problems with this.

For normal PC stuff (games etc,) check out this image, it is the best one I have found. If you see no difference between 0-16 and 236-255, no matter what you do to brightness/contrast, you are missing that data. On the other hand, if you do see the difference, using this pattern is a great way to calibrate your display - make it so you can just barely makeout the "dvd" words in the 0 and 255 boxes.) I have an NVidia card (not ATI) but you should have a setting to expand the output to see the missing data.

Test pattern: http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s...0-255BWDVD.png

Now Videos are a whole different ballgame-and are a bit more confusing. My best suggestion is to find a Disney/Pixar Blu-Ray and run the calibration tests...in that situation it is fine if you are missing the BTB WTW signals, but you have to make sure the driver is not expanding the colors thinking it is being sent to a 0-255 display. I know on the NVidia side about a year ago they added an option to output 16-235 and thus NOT expand the source 16-235 video to 0-255. I did some testing changing my comp to TV (16-235) levels, and the madVR setting to 16-235 handled it brilliantly (i.e. it did not perform expansion, making 16 "real" black and 235 "real" white, hence the terms "BTB" (Blacker than Black...) The key here is to make sure the video test pattern does show 16 as fully black and that it immediately shows a gradient going lighter, else once again you will be missing the data regardless of your TV brightness/contrast setting (that is called "double expansion.") On the other hand, if black looks grey then you are not expanding when you should be. (That is what those of us see with a full 0-255 display with MadVR set to 16-235.)

If it will help, let me know and I can find a video test-pattern and throw it up on a server or something.
Edit, it took forever, but I dugup the m2ts file in my Toy Story 3 Blu-Ray! http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s...amma-small.png
Not only does it help to make sure you are seeing the correct colorspace, but I just used it to set my Gamma in MadVR! (I haven't perfected it yet - the boxes should match the background...and if you look carefully in the middle, you should see some bars on the white and black side. I am not sure if it is legal for me to post the m2ts file itself, but if anyone has any questions on this (or issues, concerns, pointers) please let me know either here or on PM...Oh, and note that the screenshot does not look correct (the squares should "melt" better - that is because I could only take a screenshot in "windowed" mode. In Exclusive mode I now have pretty nicely calibrated. (Pure Power Curve 2.30)


Again I apologize to be off-topic, I hope this helped....

Last edited by Mikey2; 9th June 2011 at 12:09. Reason: found test-pattern video!
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Old 9th June 2011, 11:45   #8187  |  Link
someone`
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq View Post
AMD has been fixing "compressed" FullRGB to real 0-255 since 11.2 only. I'd say: if you want proper PQ from madVR - get proper FullRGB transmission.
Some guys still use old AMD drivers with broken/compressed FullRGB. They use to set their displays to Limited (TV) levels to get more or less watchable picture. I did too until 11.2.
I think maybe the problem is this :
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread....22616&page=145
Quote:
Here's what I have found so far:

-If I play a 1080P video the GPU gets stuck at 300/300
-If I start Kombuster at 640x480 the GPU will go to full 3D clocks, 875/1200, but as soon as I start a 1080P video the GPU drops to 300/300
-If I play a very low resolution AVI file the GPU goes to full 3D clocks, 875/1200
As for me , I use a modded driver so I can still get the feature from the lastest driver and can decode 1080p content just fine .
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Old 9th June 2011, 12:47   #8188  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
madshi, feature request: is it possible to add an option to madVR which disables the video card's 3x1D CLUT when madVR is active, and re-enables it when playback is finished? In the same way that the refresh rate changer does it with the display mode.

The reason I ask is that I use the video card's CLUT for color correction for Windows applications (with an ICC profile), but using a 3dlut is best with madVR, so it would be great to allow switching automatically between the two. Right now if I use a 3dlut the video card's CLUT will apply on top of it, which is obviously suboptimal.
why so? the graphic card's CLUT ensures that your display is D65/2.x(from 0 to 100 IRE) and the 3DLUT in mVR allows you to map the gamut(and possibly change the gamma curves if you fancy that...but it will never help to reach D65 from 0 to 100 IRE). Two different jobs....and unless you could merge the CLUT into the 3DLUT, this is as good as it's gonna get.

Besides, the CLUT is processed in 10bit(when applicable).
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Old 9th June 2011, 12:53   #8189  |  Link
Qaq
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Originally Posted by Mikey2 View Post
I apologize to be off-topic....
You don't have to. It's not OT at all, but base strategy according to author: see technical discussion: by madshi. All the things here should be clarified/known for every madvr's fan.
And now I see sometimes that even "true videophiles" have no idea how to set up their devices for proper image presentation. Big problem here that we also have no idea how do those devices work. Are you sure HDMI input in your display provides proper RGB? I'm not at all.
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Old 9th June 2011, 13:49   #8190  |  Link
e-t172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by e-t172 View Post
The reason I ask is that I use the video card's CLUT for color correction for Windows applications (with an ICC profile), but using a 3dlut is best with madVR, so it would be great to allow switching automatically between the two. Right now if I use a 3dlut the video card's CLUT will apply on top of it, which is obviously suboptimal.
why so? the graphic card's CLUT ensures that your display is D65/2.x(from 0 to 100 IRE) and the 3DLUT in mVR allows you to map the gamut(and possibly change the gamma curves if you fancy that...but it will never help to reach D65 from 0 to 100 IRE). Two different jobs....and unless you could merge the CLUT into the 3DLUT, this is as good as it's gonna get.
You're completely right. However, I'm worried about the fact that the video card probably doesn't dither after the CLUT, whereas madVR does dither after the 3DLUT. Shouldn't this be a concern?

(Also, just to be pedantic: AFAIK, the 3DLUT file format can in fact be used to reach D65, it's yCMS that can't)

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Besides, the CLUT is processed in 10bit(when applicable).
How do you know that NVidia/ATI/Intel cards have 10-bit CLUTs for HDMI/DVI outputs? Do you have a reliable source?
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Old 9th June 2011, 13:59   #8191  |  Link
TheElix
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I'm sorry if this problem's been discussed before, but I get "Creating the 3dlut for the display Panasonic-TV failed" error when I try to use yCMS. http://rghost.ru/10072911/image.png I have a HDMI 1.4a Panasonic plasma HDTV.

BTW, what's the preferable pixel format for my display, YCbCr or RGB?
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Old 9th June 2011, 14:05   #8192  |  Link
Mikey2
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Originally Posted by Qaq View Post
You don't have to. It's not OT at all, but base strategy according to author: see technical discussion: by madshi. All the things here should be clarified/known for every madvr's fan.
And now I see sometimes that even "true videophiles" have no idea how to set up their devices for proper image presentation. Big problem here that we also have no idea how do those devices work. Are you sure HDMI input in your display provides proper RGB? I'm not at all.
Oh boy I hear you on how little most people know. However, I do not shun them, since even though I consider myself somewhat good at these things (I am an engineer that takes this to be more than a hobby) I am still constantly learning (especially from people on this forum/thread.) Then again, I have a friend who's parents are multi-millionaires and have one of those 100K plus indoor movie theaters - it looked and sounded like utter crap to me! After only an hour of making some necessary changes, the improvement was day and night. Now THAT bewilders and frankly annoys me (couldn't they have at least hired someone to calibrate it?! Then there was the CEO of my company that had a top-of-the-line Elite Kuro Plasma connected by composite cables!)

When I find something I could possibly help with, I simply want to give back to the community. My only problem is my posts tend to be too verbose.

Anyway, to make this post still relevant: I do know that my TV has options for RGB 16/235, RGB 0-255, component 4:4:4 and Component 4:2:2, but NOT because they are explicit options. (Which they are - it is a Pioneer Kuro 5010FD Plasma...I love it. )

There was a wrench thrown into my setup: It was discovered that my Yamaha RX-V1800 had a nasty bug where it clipped all BTB/WTW signals! I had to run a CD-based firmware update in order to fix it! It wasn't as bad as double-expansion, but it was something that I never would have found without both running all of the aforementioned tests and trolling these message boards. So you definitely have a point - this stuff can be tricky to the best of us.

Well, I guess this post is of little value, but thank you for the kind words. I would rather see more info than less when talking about these matters - especially since Madshi's wonderful render is so much on the cutting edge. I just need a color-meter to take it to the next level...
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Old 9th June 2011, 14:20   #8193  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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Originally Posted by TheElix View Post
I'm sorry if this problem's been discussed before, but I get "Creating the 3dlut for the display Panasonic-TV failed" error when I try to use yCMS. http://rghost.ru/10072911/image.png I have a HDMI 1.4a Panasonic plasma HDTV.

BTW, what's the preferable pixel format for my display, YCbCr or RGB?
Delete yCMS and your 3D Lut from your madVR install directory. It will then download again, and should work.
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Old 9th June 2011, 14:24   #8194  |  Link
ced007
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Originally Posted by fairchild View Post
What Andy said is somewhat correct, but not entirely.

If you have an ATI card that sends unmolested 0-255 then it depends on the capability of your display. For example, on my system with my 5830 through it's HDMI port feeding the signal to my Panasonic plasma HDTV, you can have it setup two correct ways:

Pixel Format: RGB Limited
MadVR: PC Levels

or

Pixel Format: RGB Full
MadVR: TV Levels

The latter should provide the best quality and gives full BTB + WTW same as my Blu-ray player provides.

The problem for me and using RGB Full is that my desktop and games look a bit off and there is black crush going on.
Or, with Panasonic PLASMA, you can connect on DVI <---> HDMI and then the TV propose a settings "DVI complete" for full RGB and you can have:
Pixel Format: RGB Full
MadVR: PC Levels
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Old 9th June 2011, 15:27   #8195  |  Link
ForceX
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Originally Posted by pacemaker1000 View Post
thanks, tried that

so what decoder do people use for m2ts playback that fully supports MadVR?
Uh, Divx's H.264 decoder is the only free alternative to FFDshow (AFAIK) and almost works as fast as FFDshow w/ ffmpeg-mt decoder. DiAVC works the fastest (highest FPS) in my PC because it seems to scale and utilize all my cores extremely well, but it has a few compatibility issues (MPC-HC's subtitles do not work with madVR).

Alternatively, if you use PotPlayer you can use DXVA with madVR if you are on Vista/Win 7. This will probably work better than HAM decoding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey2 View Post
Am I missing anything here or losing out of anything doing it this way, or are people just trying to avoid software decoding?
I doubt you're missing anything out. Your CPU is more than fast enough to handle software decoding, and you'll get better decoding compatibility with software decoders instead of using your GF 8600. Hardware decoding would only be necessary if want to do really fancy stuffs like frame interpolation or realtime AviSynth filters.
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Old 9th June 2011, 17:20   #8196  |  Link
TheElix
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
Delete yCMS and your 3D Lut from your madVR install directory. It will then download again, and should work.
Unfortunately, it didn't help. I deleted yCMS folder (and I didn't have a 3DLUT inside madVR installation directory) and after madVR downloaded yCMS it gave me the same error.

Hmm, I have an ATI card and FullRGB pixel format indeed crushes the image. I have no visible changes between Limited RGB, YCbCr 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. Maybe there are other merits to consider when choosing the right format?
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Old 9th June 2011, 19:48   #8197  |  Link
Andy o
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Originally Posted by ced007 View Post
Or, with Panasonic PLASMA, you can connect on DVI <---> HDMI and then the TV propose a settings "DVI complete" for full RGB and you can have:
Pixel Format: RGB Full
MadVR: PC Levels
Does this work while still maintaining the ability to take 24p input and refresh at 96Hz?
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Old 9th June 2011, 20:54   #8198  |  Link
Portioli
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hello,
i am an ATi user & i am using CoreAVC software acceleration as long as DXVA is not supported with MadVR.
i would like you to check some of my settings if possible.

here is the coreAVC configuration panel.




should i change the output formats and output levels?


@ MAdVR
properties i have set
PC Levels (0-255)
calibration
dont calibrate this display (i dont know to use yCMS yet)
BT.709
pure power curve 2.20
color & gama
enable gamma processing not checked

@ ati catalyst control
pixel format is set to 4:4:4 FullRGB
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Old 9th June 2011, 21:21   #8199  |  Link
pacemaker1000
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Originally Posted by SamuriHL View Post
Right click while playing a video, go to filters, hold ctrl while clicking on the Cyberlink Video Decoder. Sorry I've not been around much today. I'm really sick at the moment and have been sleeping as much as I can.
thanks
sorry to hear you are ill hope you get better soon
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Old 9th June 2011, 23:48   #8200  |  Link
mark0077
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madshi, I found an issue today playing any video file that has a higher frame rate than my display refresh, when in fullscreen exclusive mode. (trying some 60hz video files today with my display at 50hz)

The problem is that some frames seem to appear on screen in the wrong order, then I might get a few seconds of perfect playback, then another few seconds of glitchy backwards / forwards motion, as I say it looks like some frames come in the wrong order.

I narrowed the problem down to the enabling of the "run presentation in a seperate thread" option. With it off, the problem never happens, with it on, it seems to always happen. I'm using a GTX 295 in Wind 7 64bit. I have it turned off now and am 100% happy, just thought you should know. If you think I should report it over on the nvidia forums as a bug on their end I'll do so. I'm using madVR 0.65.
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