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Old 15th November 2015, 16:23   #34261  |  Link
ashlar42
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I concur, if I have to limit myself at the images displayed on that page, the algorithm seems pretty terrible, to be honest. I like a sharp image, but judging from these images one is supposed to watch a Minecraft game, not a movie.

Edit: pictures here are better, though https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...ralImages.html

Aliasing is still there, but at least I can see a reason for taking it into consideration. They really ought to change the pics in the homepage.

Edit 2: these https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...udyImages.html are even better. Interesting...

Last edited by ashlar42; 15th November 2015 at 16:27.
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Old 15th November 2015, 17:03   #34262  |  Link
KoD
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Bug report: with the provided file (35Mb), madVR breaks in many different ways when using QuickSync as the decoder in MPC-HC. EVR (custom presenter) has no problems, with the same decoder. It's a straight mux to mkv of the first minute of the first episode of Star Trek Voyager, from a PAL DVD disc (25i material).


I am listing the steps to follow for what I describe below, because based on what you do, the issues you get are different:
- connect your display (TV in my case) directly to your motherboard HDMI port; if you connect your display to another graphic card, and just use QS decoding in the background, the results below will be different (like, no issues in some cases and much worse issues in others);
- switch your display to a 50Hz refresh rate (again, if you have a different refresh rate, the issues are much worse)
- reset the madVR settings, using the "restore default settings.bat" in the madVR folder
- in MPC-HC Options: Playback\Output\Auto-zoom = enabled, and set to AutoFit (Larger only)
- in MPC-HC Options: Playback\Fullscreen\Launch files in Fullscreen = disabled


Now, in MPC-HC, let's first configure to use EVR as the video renderer, select xySubfilter as the subtitle renderer, and QuickSync as the hardware decoder, and play the file. During playback, make sure to try and skip back and forth in the file (using the keyboard arrows, for instance), and to switch between windowed mode and full-screen mode, just to make sure that everything works fine. Notice that subtitles are located nicely at the bottom of the image, too.
- with "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = disabled" -> no issues
- with "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = enabled" -> no issues

Now select madVR as renderer, and make sure xySubfilter is also selected as the subtitle renderer. Start playback, but pause it immediately to configure madVR a bit more:
- devices->display modes->switch to matching display mode = disabled
- processing->zoom control->move subtitles = disabled
- rendering->general settings->full-screen exclusive mode = disabled.

Playback results:
- with "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = disabled", madVR using DX9 video path, while the file plays in a MPC-HC window of the same size as the video material, everything seems to look fine; the opening credits are scrolling, and then the action in the video begins, with some talking heads; it's at this point that you see subtitles in the video, too; but try to switch to fullscreen mode -> the subtitles are no longer at the proper location in the video ! They're now in the middle-left part of the screen.

- same as above, but with "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = enabled": again, everything seems to be fine; let's try and switch to full-screen mode-> what do you know, this time the subtitles are in the proper location (at the bottom of the screen)!

Don't forget to switch between full-screen mode and windowed mode, and to skip in the file back and forth, to make sure that everything else is fine!

Ok, time to switch madVR to use the DX11 path:
- rendering->general settings->use Direct3D 11 for presentation = enabled
- rendering->general settings->present a frame for every VSync = enabled


Now, playback results:
- with "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = disabled", madVR using DX11 video path, while the file plays in a MPC-HC window of the same size as the video material, everything seems to look fine, at least at the beginning; when the talking heads appear, you might notice some judder, but you might also think it's a fluke. So, after these talking heads appear, let's switch to fullscreen mode -> very likely you'll see an extreme case of frames jumping back and forth, making the chaotic video even more chaotic. Or, if per chance this does not happen, just skip back a bit, I guarantee the extreme jumping will start. And, did you notice the subtitles are once again located in the middle-left part of the image?
- with "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = enabled", madVR using DX11 video path, switching to full-screen does not have the same dramatic effect as above, you notice some jumps but not that bad. But it's enough to skip back or forth in the file, and the extreme frame jumping starts.


I'll make one more comment, about having the display connected to another graphics adapter, instead of your motherboard video port. In this case, having "Enable Adaptive HW deinterlacing = disabled" might give a working picture, but turn this setting on, and this is by far the worst playback scenario - you might get a frame every 1 minute or so, if you have the patience to wait for it; we can't really say there is any playback in this case.


Finally, switch back to EVR (custom presenter) as the video renderer, to have proof that everything can work fine when using the same decoder and the same file.


These kind of issues don't happen with every file. But when it happens, it's really bad.

Last edited by KoD; 15th November 2015 at 17:24. Reason: details
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Old 15th November 2015, 19:34   #34263  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlnl View Post
Thanks!
Sorry, but the problem is not fixed here
The log:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7a...ew?usp=sharing
Argh. Ok, can you create another log with the next madVR build? I've added some more logging output, maybe it helps me finding out what's going on there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
OK great, would there be room for further improvement there in your opinion?
I'm not sure what you mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
It's useful at a glance.. Could you at least state the profiles that are running?
You do realize that there can be 17 different profile groups? Kodi/DSPlayer actually has a mode which creates the max number of profile groups. I don't really want to add (up to) 17 new information fields to the OSD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Some more thoughts on SuperRes radius:
I think one should simply use a lower SR strength for very high scaling factors, e.g. not above 2.
With it, I think aliasing is not an issue with real content in the wild and with high scaling factor, the effect of SR subjectively looks stronger to me in general.
So imho a radius of 0.66 is fine in general and if one wants less aliasing but still a nice sharpness boost, SR strength of 2 should be combined with the new sharpen options (at least once they are more affordable).
I would find it really bad if the radius was higher, as I really like the naturally sharp impression when doing 1080p -> WQHD. I suppose a radius of 0.66 also looks fine with 1080p -> 4k, as the aliasing seems to depend on a very low pixel count of thin structures.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ace960 View Post
The media player reacts. When I press stop button then it is pressed and the sound of the actual file stops playing. The video remains frozen until I close mpc-hc.

I would also add information that the system have two displays. One is the primary PC monitor. The second one is TV where the movies are played fullscreen. I operate mpc-hc from the main PC monitor taskbar (for this kind of test).
Please activate debug mode, then reproduce the problem, let the media player stay frozen for 20 seconds, then please terminate it with the task manager. Then please zip and upload the log somewhere (not here) for me to look it. Please also create 2-3 freeze reports (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Pause/Break). Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogli View Post
I'm not so sure about that, but let's wait and see.

There's another isssue with those interlaced DVDs since the introduction of the automatic switch to DXVA scaling:
When playback starts the clock deviation is heavily off, maybe 10^6 % or so, and the DVD essentially hangs for 10 to 20 sec until this value goes down to an acceptable level and plays fluidly thereafter.
Sounds strange. I don't think I have that problem here. Do you have another PC to double check this with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
anyways, I wanted to draw some attention to a new developed downscaling algorithm by ETH Zurich which is called "Perceptually Downscaling" which gets pretty amazing results:
https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/imageDownscaling.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
not sure about this downscaler. is sharper than bicubic but terrible aliased at the same time.

just look at the hair.

the comparison algorithm are pretty weak to say it friendly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I concur, if I have to limit myself at the images displayed on that page, the algorithm seems pretty terrible, to be honest. I like a sharp image, but judging from these images one is supposed to watch a Minecraft game, not a movie.

Edit: pictures here are better, though https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...ralImages.html

Aliasing is still there, but at least I can see a reason for taking it into consideration. They really ought to change the pics in the homepage.

Edit 2: these https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...udyImages.html are even better. Interesting...
Could be worth a try. It does look like it tends to produce heavy aliasing in some situations, but maybe it could be improved by running some sort of smoothing filter. I don't have time for this atm, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoD View Post
Bug report: with the provided file (35Mb), madVR breaks in many different ways when using QuickSync as the decoder in MPC-HC. EVR (custom presenter) has no problems, with the same decoder. It's a straight mux to mkv of the first minute of the first episode of Star Trek Voyager, from a PAL DVD disc (25i material).
Which exact GPU are you using when getting the DX11 frame jumping? And which OS are you using? And which discrete GPU are you using when *not* connecting your display to the mainboard HDMI output?
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Old 15th November 2015, 19:50   #34264  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.89.17 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* significant speedups for "sharpen edges" and "thin edges" algos
* small quality change (hopefully improvement?) for "thin edges"
* fixed: repeated frames were reported although smooth motion FRC was on
Some benchmarks on my development PC:

Code:
AMD HD7750 1080p24:
AdaptiveSharpen: 6.34ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 17.15ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 9.87ms
thin edges v0.89.16: 25.62ms
thin edges v0.89.17: 5.41ms

Intel HD4000 720p24:
AdaptiveSharpen: 9.92ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 36.2ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 15.9ms

NVidia GTX650 1080p24
AdaptiveSharpen: 15.51ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 27.59ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 11.69ms
And yes, the results are weird on the NVidia compared to AMD and Intel. But I've double checked, the results are correct. So "sharpen edges" is now about 50% slower than AdaptiveSharpen on my AMD & Intel GPUs, but 25% faster than AdaptiveSharpen on my NVidia GPU.
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Old 15th November 2015, 20:35   #34265  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Thanks for the performance optimizations.
With GTX 980, now Adaptive Sharpen and sharpen edges roughly seem to be equally fast. Adaptive Sharpen is still slightly faster, I get a little lower GPU usage and rendering time with it. So there seems to be a difference to Kepler.

Regarding SuperRes again:
I read here that SR would produce an overly sharp picture to some when doing 1080p -> WQHD. However, I can hardly believe this. I made a sharpness comparison with a game screenshot rendered in WQHD, and despite of SR with strength of 3 on top of Jinc AR scaling, it's still noticeably softer than the original (and much closer to ground truth than just Jinc AR without SR):

Original in WQHD:


Downscaled to 1080p with C-R GL:


Upscaled to WQHD Jinc AR without SR:


SR strength 3:
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:09   #34266  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure what you mean.
Well, 2X SR improves edges clarity so how about another extra pass on top of it for instance? Most users here don't care about increased GPU load if PQ improves.

Thanks a lot for .17 but apparently 2X is still disabled for SR only? Based on my screenshots comparison, you seemed to agree that 2X SR improves PQ so why not? I got no use for 1X only SR
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:15   #34267  |  Link
rodrigo081089
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Is it possible to use madvr with h265 10 bits videos? Because if i play it i cant get hardware decoding. The only way to make it works itīs with EVR
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:22   #34268  |  Link
edigee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodrigo081089 View Post
Is it possible to use madvr with h265 10 bits videos? Because if i play it i cant get hardware decoding. The only way to make it works itīs with EVR
LAV filters ,DXVA copyback should work with no problems. Of course ,it depends of the HEVC decoding capabilities of the GPU.
AFAIK the only cards that can do that are GTX 960/950. Maybe there are other platforms( integrated GPU/CPU) ,laptops that can do hevc hardware decoding.
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:41   #34269  |  Link
KoD
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Quote:
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Which exact GPU are you using when getting the DX11 frame jumping? And which OS are you using? And which discrete GPU are you using when *not* connecting your display to the mainboard HDMI output?
The CPU is a i7 4790K (HD4600 iGPU), and the discrete GPU is a GTX 980. OS is Win 8.1 64 bit.

What I looked for was to have QS doing the decoding and deinterlacing, and having the GTX 980 doing the resizing. But decoding + deinterlacing on QS was not working properly when using the dGPU for output (as soon as I skipped in the file, playback started grinding), so I tried to debug what was going on, and connected the TV directly to the motherboard HDMI port. That's how I encountered all of the above.

madshi, is it certain that the bat file really resets all the settings? And that it does not have to be run as administrator? Because I did not have the issue with subtitle positioning on this same file when I used 0.89.15 with the ar fixed dlls. But the issue started happening after switching to 0.89.16 (and doing a reset settings to defaults). Then I switched back to 0.89.15 + the ar fixed dlls, did a reset to defaults, and still had the subtitle issue. Finally, I started modifying all the settings in madVR, just enabling stuff, pressing Apply, and then disabling them back, and after some such random operations the subtitle issue was gone again with 0.89.15. But I also started doing the same in the Intel Graphics CP (like disabling the 3D Application Optimal Mode setting - when this is enabled the madVR OSD flickers badly on that file), so I'm not sure what fixed the positioning. The frame jumping back and forth is still there though, as are the issues when using the GTX 980 for output and QS for decoding and deinterlacing.

Last edited by KoD; 15th November 2015 at 21:53.
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:43   #34270  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Well, 2X SR improves edges clarity so how about another extra pass on top of it for instance? Most users here don't care about increased GPU load if PQ improves.
Are you sure you wouldn't achieve a 99% identical result with sharpen edges on top of current SR?
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:44   #34271  |  Link
ace960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ace960 View Post
When next file in a directory is played then the audio is played only. The video freezes at the previous file.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does the media player still react to mouse and keyboard events? E.g. can you press the stop button and it reacts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ace960 View Post
The media player reacts. When I press stop button then it is pressed and the sound of the actual file stops playing. The video remains frozen until I close mpc-hc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Please activate debug mode, then reproduce the problem, let the media player stay frozen for 20 seconds, then please terminate it with the task manager. Then please zip and upload the log somewhere (not here) for me to look it. Please also create 2-3 freeze reports (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+Pause/Break). Thanks.
I uploaded zipped log and the freeze reports to http://ulozto.net/xPtByEpB/madvr-zip.
note: I generated the files with mpc-hc 1.7.10.5 and madvr 0.89.17.
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Old 15th November 2015, 21:47   #34272  |  Link
rodrigo081089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edigee View Post
LAV filters ,DXVA copyback should work with no problems. Of course ,it depends of the HEVC decoding capabilities of the GPU.
AFAIK the only cards that can do that are GTX 960/950. Maybe there are other platforms( integrated GPU/CPU) ,laptops that can do hevc hardware decoding.
Thanks, that fixed my problem. Now it works awesome
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Old 15th November 2015, 22:29   #34273  |  Link
Sp00kyFox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Could be worth a try. It does look like it tends to produce heavy aliasing in some situations, but maybe it could be improved by running some sort of smoothing filter. I don't have time for this atm, though.
fair enough. I also created a thread in the avisynth development area for it, if anyone feels up to the task. I'm not an avisynth dev so I can't do it myself but at least I shared the word. maybe it's possible to implement it as an avisynth script though. like I said, pseudocde does look rather easy.
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Old 15th November 2015, 22:42   #34274  |  Link
leeperry
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Are you sure you wouldn't achieve a 99% identical result with sharpen edges on top of current SR?
Well, there currently isn't any version that would allow me to A/B 2X SR Vs 1X SR + edges sharpening but anyway it's all subjective, 2X does improve PQ as proven by my screenshots comparison and at the end of the day I like what SR does to motion-blur. All this said, I didn't see any regular sharpening filter competing with a second pass of SR in .16.

And I'd love to try 2X SR + "thin edges"

Last edited by leeperry; 15th November 2015 at 23:26.
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Old 16th November 2015, 00:29   #34275  |  Link
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Amazing results Madshi, thank you! Looking forward to testing the optimized filters tonight.
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Old 16th November 2015, 00:36   #34276  |  Link
Magik Mark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.89.17 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* significant speedups for "sharpen edges" and "thin edges" algos
* small quality change (hopefully improvement?) for "thin edges"
* fixed: repeated frames were reported although smooth motion FRC was on
Some benchmarks on my development PC:

Code:
AMD HD7750 1080p24:
AdaptiveSharpen: 6.34ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 17.15ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 9.87ms
thin edges v0.89.16: 25.62ms
thin edges v0.89.17: 5.41ms

Intel HD4000 720p24:
AdaptiveSharpen: 9.92ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 36.2ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 15.9ms

NVidia GTX650 1080p24
AdaptiveSharpen: 15.51ms
sharpen edges v0.89.16: 27.59ms
sharpen edges v0.89.17: 11.69ms
And yes, the results are weird on the NVidia compared to AMD and Intel. But I've double checked, the results are correct. So "sharpen edges" is now about 50% slower than AdaptiveSharpen on my AMD & Intel GPUs, but 25% faster than AdaptiveSharpen on my NVidia GPU.
It definitely made rendering faster by at least 10ms. All new enhancements running
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Old 16th November 2015, 00:42   #34277  |  Link
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played around with the new version and some settings. I don't really get the negative feedback for the biliteral chroma upscaling. I tried it with some real world movies and TV shows and it does a great job. using the luma information as a guidance seems to me is the best way to do it, so yeah.. it's a good chroma scaler in my eyes.

another thing. can it be that the nnedi3 implementation in madvr doesn't correct the center shift that the algorithm introduces? if I pause a frame and activate luma doubling with nnedi3 (neuron number doesn't matter) I can cleary see that the image content slightly moves.
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Old 16th November 2015, 01:59   #34278  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
anyways, I wanted to draw some attention to a new developed downscaling algorithm by ETH Zurich which is called "Perceptually Downscaling" which gets pretty amazing results:
https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/imageDownscaling.htm

I think that could be a gread addition to madvr. according to the paper the performance of is pretty good (they implemented it with matlab) and it should be possible to execute it in realtime. it seems that they didn't publish the code though but the algorithm is explained in the paper and presented in pseudo code, it only consists of convolutions and sums.
That looks interesting, bit worried about the 'patent pending' though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
not sure about this downscaler. is sharper than bicubic but terrible aliased at the same time.

just look at the hair.

the comparison algorithm are pretty weak to say it friendly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
I concur, if I have to limit myself at the images displayed on that page, the algorithm seems pretty terrible, to be honest. I like a sharp image, but judging from these images one is supposed to watch a Minecraft game, not a movie.

Edit: pictures here are better, though https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...ralImages.html

Aliasing is still there, but at least I can see a reason for taking it into consideration. They really ought to change the pics in the homepage.

Edit 2: these https://graphics.ethz.ch/~cengizo/Fi...udyImages.html are even better. Interesting...
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Could be worth a try. It does look like it tends to produce heavy aliasing in some situations, but maybe it could be improved by running some sort of smoothing filter. I don't have time for this atm, though.
The aliasing you're seeing seems to be because they've upscaled the images using point sampling. Presumably to make it easier to see differences (otherwise you'd have to look at a really small image). The other algorithms are simply too blurry to make the aliasing noticeable.

Last edited by Shiandow; 16th November 2015 at 02:26.
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Old 16th November 2015, 02:33   #34279  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Sp00kyFox View Post
played around with the new version and some settings. I don't really get the negative feedback for the biliteral chroma upscaling. I tried it with some real world movies and TV shows and it does a great job. using the luma information as a guidance seems to me is the best way to do it, so yeah.. it's a good chroma scaler in my eyes.
Bilateral scaling can be really really good, but also runs into some exceptions that make it look like trash. Any time you have solid red shapes on solid black, Bilateral has zero luma information to draw on and gets ugly at all the edges (happens on logo/studio sequences before films, rare scenes from certain movies, anime) Furthermore, it sometimes "fills to edges" inappropriately, giving a dramatically different image (chroma bleed) from what ground truth is.

It's just not consistent enough to be left on for all video content. 80-90% of the time it's great, the other 10% it looks so bad I think something's corrupted or broken.
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Old 16th November 2015, 08:26   #34280  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.89.17 released
* small quality change (hopefully improvement?) for "thin edges"
Looks a lot more accurate to the source now, I'm seeing less haloing and overall better picture quality. The lines are thicker now at the same settings so people may wish to revisit them.

FWIW, applying thinning after upscaling at a setting of 2.0 seems to look basically identical to doing it @ 1.0 every 2x upscale, you save some rendering time doing it this way also.
Crispen edges almost does nothing (certainly nothing good) when refining after upscaling though.

Madshi, do you think crispen edges goes a little too far? > 2.0 starts to look quite bad. > 3.0 makes me wonder why it's even there.

Last edited by ryrynz; 16th November 2015 at 09:52.
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