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Old 14th February 2016, 07:20   #36121  |  Link
ryrynz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
Should SSIM be used with AR + LL like Cat-Rom for the best quality?
Can't comment on the LL side of things, but as for AR.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/161801

4K text rendering downscaled by SSIM with AR/NO AR magnified 1000% (pixel resize)

Results should should speak for themselves, the difference though would be basically imperceptible to anyone except for leeperry

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBG View Post
When I use madVr(0.90.8) with PotPlayer x86(1.6.58613 - latest stable version) I get a memory leak.
Really pays to read previous posts, you may have just wasted a good deal of your own time, this was reported a couple of pages back.
0.90.9 was released 2 hours before you posted and has likely has fixed the issue.

Last edited by ryrynz; 14th February 2016 at 07:58.
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Old 14th February 2016, 10:13   #36122  |  Link
MrBonk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Wanted to see how the latest version of SSIM compares to Catmull-Rom, which I was using before. Comparison. This is downscaling from 1080p to 720p, so not a very big factor and one I actually use a fair bit (both Catmull-Rom and SSIM set to use LL and AR). I have to say I'm impressed, it brings out a lot more detail!
More like it aggressively emphasizes aliasing.
Sorry,it just does not look good on real time rendered content that already doesn't have good AA before downscaling. It's going to bring back the aliasing that a good resampling filter should remove.
TW3's built in AA is poor, and 1080p to 720p is only a 2.25x factor so it's not going to look the best anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Okay, I managed to find a good example of a scene where SuperRes introduces a bunch of aliasing. Or rather, what I should requalify as "blobbiness". It's not really aliasing at all, but an interruption in smooth lines.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/161795

Key areas of note, although the problem is very obvious in almost all parts of the screenshot:
The AOL billboard letters. Also the AOL man's border becomes non-uniform and rings a bit.
All the specular reflections off the cars, especially the thinly shaped ones. They become lumpy/rough. I don't really know how to better describe it.
The Boston Globe sign. Uniform white/grey becomes irregularly blobby white/grey.
Brown wooden fence around the parking lot. The whole thing becomes granular with SuperRes.

The source is not the best, admittedly, and could be entirely responsible for the lumpy/blobby/granular image that superres produces. This is with linear light off, but with it checked on, the strange lumpy quality remains the same.
I wouldn't totally call it Aliasing, though it is similar in some aspects.
Bad reconstruction because of a poor source file (Brings out the existing compression). I would have to imagine if the source was lossless it wouldn't happen. Having lossless SD content in a non-interlaced format is a pipe dream though.

Last edited by MrBonk; 14th February 2016 at 10:21.
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Old 14th February 2016, 10:31   #36123  |  Link
ryrynz
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Originally Posted by MrBonk View Post
Having lossless SD content in a non-interlaced format is a pipe dream though.
In this case I'd just use a luma scaler that wasn't as sharp. There's only so much you can do to SD content before it starts looking "off".
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Old 14th February 2016, 11:40   #36124  |  Link
har3inger
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Originally Posted by MrBonk View Post
More like it aggressively emphasizes aliasing.
Sorry,it just does not look good on real time rendered content that already doesn't have good AA before downscaling. It's going to bring back the aliasing that a good resampling filter should remove.
TW3's built in AA is poor, and 1080p to 720p is only a 2.25x factor so it's not going to look the best anyway.


I wouldn't totally call it Aliasing, though it is similar in some aspects.
Bad reconstruction because of a poor source file (Brings out the existing compression). I would have to imagine if the source was lossless it wouldn't happen. Having lossless SD content in a non-interlaced format is a pipe dream though.
TW3 has an in-engine sharpen filter that can look exactly like that image with SSM. In fact, the game is basically never that soft-looking/un-aliased at native res like it seems in catmull rom. This is especially true if there is also no AA being applied, which is likely. VSR or FSSSAA forced in drivers are the only real AA techniques that would look like the catmull rom image. tl'dr, because the source is probably super aliased, you can't fairly judge the merits of SSM.

And yeah, superres is likely screwing up the image because the source is bad, but even on pretty clean sources (2gb BR rips down to DVD resolution... though encoding settings and actual source may be much less good), I tend to see the same problems.
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Old 14th February 2016, 12:47   #36125  |  Link
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0.90.9 seems to have introduced a new SSIM related bug at least in my system (Win 10 x64, Radeon HD 6850, Catalyst 15.11.1). When video deinterlacing is on and downscaling factor is such that, instead of downscaling the whole image, only luma is downscaled, something strange happens.
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Old 14th February 2016, 13:26   #36126  |  Link
k4rma
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stuttering issue

Hi, ive noticed an issue that has appeared since i upgraded to the 90.x version: for HEVC decodes when i go full screen and match the content frame rate (to 1080p23) the video starts stuttering. This does not occur when the video is in a window and desktop is at 50Hz, and does not occur for x264 content.

I have noticed it in x265 videos ive watched previously (before upgrade) that didnt have this problem, but now do.

Im using MPC-HC.

Has anyone else seen this type of issue?
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Old 14th February 2016, 14:49   #36127  |  Link
Ge'in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qotscha View Post
0.90.9 seems to have introduced a new SSIM related bug at least in my system (Win 10 x64, Radeon HD 6850, Catalyst 15.11.1). When video deinterlacing is on and downscaling factor is such that, instead of downscaling the whole image, only luma is downscaled, something strange happens.
Same issue, with Win 7 x64, Radeon 7970 and Catalyst 16.1.
Video : 1440*1080 @ 25 fps with deint=ON
Downscale with SSIM : 1440*1080 to 1238*693 it's broken


Last edited by Ge'in; 14th February 2016 at 14:57. Reason: Add screenshot
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Old 14th February 2016, 16:34   #36128  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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madshi, bug report for you:

Using a 3DLUT, I'm getting some pretty bad clipping on particularly bright colors, and I think it's due to some precision loss in madVR. I say that because I turned off the 3DLUT, saved a screenshot, then loaded it up in MPC-HC and turned the 3DLUT back on, and the clipping is gone! I have all trade quality options disabled, though I did notice that enabling the "use 10bit" options shifts the clipping around slightly. Could you please take a look?

Here's an archive containing the 3DLUT, a sample video, and several images to show what I'm seeing. With the 3DLUT enabled, I see clipping on the sky - the wrong colors look like the colors without the 3DLUT. I took a screenshot of frame 256 with ("video-frame-256-with-3DLUT.png") and without ("video-frame-256-no-3DLUT.png") the 3DLUT enabled to show the clipping. "saved-image-with-3DLUT.png" shows what I see if I open "video-frame-256-no-3DLUT.png" in MPC-HC with the 3DLUT enabled.

I'm testing this in windowed mode, but I see the clipping pretty much regardless of the settings. It's visible regardless of chroma doubling, superres, D3D11 versus D3D9, the native display bitdepth or trade quality options. My graphics card is an Nvidia GeForce GTX 970, with the 361.75 drivers, and I'm on 64-bit Windows 10 (using 64-bit MPC-HC and 64-bit madVR). I'm using the latest version of madVR, but I've been seeing this for a long time - it's just different every time I do a new calibration on my monitor.

Last edited by Ver Greeneyes; 14th February 2016 at 16:42.
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Old 14th February 2016, 16:53   #36129  |  Link
Telion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Found it, will be fixed in the next build. Thanks for letting me know.
Unfortunately it's not completely fixed on my side. Now it leaks not on every file close - sometimes it doesn't leak when there are several files opened in a row, though more often it does than does not. And on the first file it seems to leak always.
I'm still on XP if that matters.
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Old 14th February 2016, 18:33   #36130  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
What do you think how material usually is downscaled?
My wild guess would be that with digital processing, downscaling in GL is most common. But I might be totally wrong.
Yes, I would agree that GL is probably most common. But it's hard to be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBG View Post
When I use madVr(0.90.8) with PotPlayer x86(1.6.58613 - latest stable version) I get a memory leak.
Please try v0.90.9 or newer, should be fixed in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sat4all View Post
With 0.90.9 + Kodi Dsplayer i'm getting black screen when playing (sd, 720p or cropped 1080p) > UHD while 1080p & UHD > UHD is fine.
switching to D3D11 presentation fix the problem but unfortunetly my IGPU struggle with D3D11.
none of the above problems occures with MPC-HC X64.
X86 bug?
Is this a new problem with 0.90.9? If so, please try to find out which exact madVR version introduced it. You can download old versions from here:

http://www.videohelp.com/software/ma...sions#download

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrik G View Post
madvr crashes with MPC-HC 64bit version but not with 32bit
why is that?

and only when i enter fullscreen not in window mode

crash report

1807 pages of issues and you still isnt able to have a fully working video renderer lol
Crash reports attached to this forum don't ever get approved, or at least very late. Try uploading them somewhere else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
The overall conclusion is that Cat-Rom is better when downscaled to very low SD resolutions and SSIM is better in other cases is what my brief research suggests...
I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k4rma View Post
Hi, ive noticed an issue that has appeared since i upgraded to the 90.x version: for HEVC decodes when i go full screen and match the content frame rate (to 1080p23) the video starts stuttering. This does not occur when the video is in a window and desktop is at 50Hz, and does not occur for x264 content.

I have noticed it in x265 videos ive watched previously (before upgrade) that didnt have this problem, but now do.

Im using MPC-HC.

Has anyone else seen this type of issue?
Can I see a screenshot with the Ctrl+J debug OSD turned on, please?

And can you please try to find out which exact madVR build introduced the problem? You can download old builds here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hu1kamania View Post
The sample, taken from live TV, appears to be a mixed content scenario. Some parts are telecined (Film mode is sublime in these instances). The other part is full 60i and will skip when set to Film mode because of the difference in refresh rate.

In MadVR I'll generally opt for Video mode, or Auto when viewing Mixed Content. In this instance, DXVA results in shimmering/aliasing and repeated frames during telecined portions of the video. Usually this is during commercials, but I've seen it happen when graphics appear during the primary broadcast!

Setting LAV "Deinterlacing Mode" to Auto, Aggressive, or Force results in visual shimmering and repeated frames. Setting LAV "Deinterlacing Mode" to Disabled alleviates much of the shimmering and results in 0 repeated frames.

Toggling "Use inverse telecine" in the Nvidia driver doesn't seem to make a difference, I thought this was for CUVID? I'm unaware of any other deinterlace settings in the Nvidia control panel. If anyone knows of another way to manipulate deinterlacing in the control panel or Nvidia Inspector, I'm all ears!

If I disable deinterlacing in MadVR and opt for a software method in LAV, I get double the repeated frames (still zero dropped frames) but shimmering is significantly reduced. Thus my preferred method for watching TV is to disable deinterlacing in MadVR and use one of the software methods from LAV Filters.

I'm unsure if this is an Nvidia driver issue, typical DXVA behavior, misconfiguration on my part, or if there is anything that can be done to manipulate DXVA on your end.
Well, I don't know what else to suggest. Sounds all weird to me. But in the end, I don't really have much control over what DXVA does internally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qotscha View Post
0.90.9 seems to have introduced a new SSIM related bug at least in my system (Win 10 x64, Radeon HD 6850, Catalyst 15.11.1). When video deinterlacing is on and downscaling factor is such that, instead of downscaling the whole image, only luma is downscaled, something strange happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ge'in View Post
Same issue, with Win 7 x64, Radeon 7970 and Catalyst 16.1.
Video : 1440*1080 @ 25 fps with deint=ON
Downscale with SSIM : 1440*1080 to 1238*693 it's broken

Should be fixed in the next build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telion View Post
Unfortunately it's not completely fixed on my side. Now it leaks not on every file close - sometimes it doesn't leak when there are several files opened in a row, though more often it does than does not. And on the first file it seems to leak always.
I'm still on XP if that matters.
I was able to reproduce the leak pretty reliably, and now it's gone for me. If the problem is still there for you I need some more information. Ideally I'd need to be able to reproduce it somehow. If that doesn't work out, can you please check if the problem is really 100% not there for you with v0.90.3, while it's definitely there with v0.90.9 (just to be safe). And then please create a debug log with v0.90.9 which captures the leak. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoD View Post
Hi madshi, it looks like vobsub rendering got broken again, but this time different than the last time. It's affecting 1920x1080 vobsubs made from BluRay sups, or the sups themselves. Small DVD vobsubs don't have this issue. The subtitles are visible when the player is in full screen mode on a normal 1080p screen, but they don't show up when the player is not in full screen mode (btw, I am not speaking about full screen exclusive mode). My guess is that the subs are not downscaled when the video is downscaled. EVR custom presenter renderer in MPC-HC in the same scenario works fine.

I put here a sub/idx sample, and my settings.bin file. You can use the subs with any media file, as long as it's longer than 5 minutes (the first spoken line starts ~ 5 minutes, as can be seen in the idx file).

Later edit: it happens the same when playing m2ts files from a BluRay, so it's not only vobsubs, but sups as well.
Seems to work fine here. But you've not provided a lot of information. E.g. which subtitle renderer are we talking about? If XySubFilter, is it the latest version or some old build? And which resolution does the video have you've tested this with?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
madshi, bug report for you:

Using a 3DLUT, I'm getting some pretty bad clipping on particularly bright colors, and I think it's due to some precision loss in madVR. I say that because I turned off the 3DLUT, saved a screenshot, then loaded it up in MPC-HC and turned the 3DLUT back on, and the clipping is gone! I have all trade quality options disabled, though I did notice that enabling the "use 10bit" options shifts the clipping around slightly. Could you please take a look?

Here's an archive containing the 3DLUT, a sample video, and several images to show what I'm seeing. With the 3DLUT enabled, I see clipping on the sky - the wrong colors look like the colors without the 3DLUT. I took a screenshot of frame 256 with ("video-frame-256-with-3DLUT.png") and without ("video-frame-256-no-3DLUT.png") the 3DLUT enabled to show the clipping. "saved-image-with-3DLUT.png" shows what I see if I open "video-frame-256-no-3DLUT.png" in MPC-HC with the 3DLUT enabled.

I'm testing this in windowed mode, but I see the clipping pretty much regardless of the settings. It's visible regardless of chroma doubling, superres, D3D11 versus D3D9, the native display bitdepth or trade quality options. My graphics card is an Nvidia GeForce GTX 970, with the 361.75 drivers, and I'm on 64-bit Windows 10 (using 64-bit MPC-HC and 64-bit madVR). I'm using the latest version of madVR, but I've been seeing this for a long time - it's just different every time I do a new calibration on my monitor.
Looks like your 3dlut handles BTB/WTW values badly. That sort of data is clipped when you make an RGB screenshot (which is stored in PC levels!).

Try adding this custom shader:

Code:
sampler s0 : register(s0);

float4 main(float2 tex : TEXCOORD0) : COLOR
{
  return saturate(tex2D(s0, tex));
}
I'm not sure if this video file is really TV levels, btw. It might be PC levels. Try adding "levels=full" as a file name tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
Wanted to see how the latest version of SSIM compares to Catmull-Rom, which I was using before. Comparison. This is downscaling from 1080p to 720p, so not a very big factor and one I actually use a fair bit (both Catmull-Rom and SSIM set to use LL and AR). I have to say I'm impressed, it brings out a lot more detail!
Would be interesting to see the original frame, because only that we we could judge which downscale is a better representation of the original frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Okay, I managed to find a good example of a scene where SuperRes introduces a bunch of aliasing. Or rather, what I should requalify as "blobbiness". It's not really aliasing at all, but an interruption in smooth lines.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/161795
Unfortunately screenshotcomparison doesn't seem to work atm. Will try to remember to check this out later...
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Old 14th February 2016, 18:39   #36131  |  Link
sat4all
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Is this a new problem with 0.90.9? If so, please try to find out which exact madVR version introduced it. You can download old versions from here:

http://www.videohelp.com/software/ma...sions#download
Yes it's a 0.90.9 problem, all previous versions work ok.
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Old 14th February 2016, 18:49   #36132  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by sat4all View Post
Thanks for the new release.
With 0.90.9 + Kodi Dsplayer i'm getting black screen when playing (sd, 720p or cropped 1080p) > UHD while 1080p & UHD > UHD is fine.
switching to D3D11 presentation fix the problem but unfortunetly my IGPU struggle with D3D11.
none of the above problems occures with MPC-HC X64.
X86 bug?
Does the Ctrl+J OSD work? Do you see anything on screen? Is your TV even able to sync to the GPU? Have you tried resetting the madVR settings as a test?
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Old 14th February 2016, 18:58   #36133  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Looks like your 3dlut handles BTB/WTW values badly. That sort of data is clipped when you make an RGB screenshot (which is stored in PC levels!).

Try adding this custom shader:
Hey, that works! I added it as a pre-resize shader, is that right? It doesn't seem to matter for the result. The 3DLUT file was just produced by ArgyllCMS's collink, and I don't think that offers any way to clip BTB/WTW. I can report it as an ArgyllCMS bug if you'd like. Does 'badly' here mean that the 3DLUT includes output values outside the TV level range, or that it does weird things if given an input value outside the TV level range?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm not sure if this video file is really TV levels, btw. It might be PC levels. Try adding "levels=full" as a file name tag.
I'm pretty sure the stream layout looks right by default - with levels=full it looks grey. Maybe the encode is sloppy in some way (this was a livestream).

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Would be interesting to see the original frame, because only that we we could judge which downscale is a better representation of the original frame.
True, I tried to upload it but kept running into size caps and gave up. I can try compressing it a little more (or putting it on Mediafire / Mega) if you'd still like to see it.
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Old 14th February 2016, 19:00   #36134  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Does the Ctrl+J OSD work? Do you see anything on screen? Is your TV even able to sync to the GPU? Have you tried resetting the madVR settings as a test?
no, nothing at all. but i can hear audio of the playing files.
yes tv do sync with the gpu.
tried settings reset and it didn't help.
one more finding: disabling FSE fix the problem.

Last edited by sat4all; 14th February 2016 at 19:11.
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Old 14th February 2016, 19:43   #36135  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by Ver Greeneyes View Post
The 3DLUT file was just produced by ArgyllCMS's collink, and I don't think that offers any way to clip BTB/WTW. I can report it as an ArgyllCMS bug if you'd like. Does 'badly' here mean that the 3DLUT includes output values outside the TV level range, or that it does weird things if given an input value outside the TV level range?
I don't know. I'm not really an expert in 3dlut matters. Might make sense to ask that question in the AVSForum madVR/ArgyllCMS thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sat4all View Post
no, nothing at all. but i can hear audio of the playing files.
yes tv do sync with the gpu.
tried settings reset and it didn't help.
one more finding: disabling FSE fix the problem.
Does the media player still react to mouse and keyboard events? Then a debug log may help. If not, a freeze report might help.
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Old 14th February 2016, 20:30   #36136  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I don't know. I'm not really an expert in 3dlut matters. Might make sense to ask that question in the AVSForum madVR/ArgyllCMS thread.
Okay, I applied a quick dirty fix to the collink source. I'll see if it works, then post to the ArgyllCMS mailing list or something (my fix is very ugly, but also very simple, so it shouldn't be hard for Graeme to address if my fix works).
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Old 14th February 2016, 20:57   #36137  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Seems to work fine here. But you've not provided a lot of information. E.g. which subtitle renderer are we talking about? If XySubFilter, is it the latest version or some old build? And which resolution does the video have you've tested this with?
It happens with 1080p videos, displayed at less than 1920 x 1080 resolution, as long as the resolution of the vobsub or the sup is also large (1920 x 1080). The subtitle renderer is xysubfilter 3.1.0.746 (the latest, as far as I know). Happens both in 32 and 64 bit.

Here's another sample [38 Mb], a mux directly from a BluRay, with only the video and the PGS subs.

Player in full-screen mode:


Player not in full-screen mode:

Last edited by KoD; 14th February 2016 at 21:19.
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Old 14th February 2016, 21:01   #36138  |  Link
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A little comparison for those interested in hardware, I recently acquired 980ti and a full unlocked fury(think furyx). They fury(x) is slightly faster(about 1ms render time, avg ~14 vs ~15ms) for one of my 1080i60 clip upscale to 4k with following setting.
980ti 1460hz
Fury 1060hz
3dlut , banding on, order dithering
Chroma : lanczo ar
Luma nnedi3 32
Chroma doubling ( image upscaling used when nnedi3 chroma doubling is not used)
Lanczo ar
Upscale refinement, SR str1.

Realistically, the performance difference won't matter for 24 or 30fps content, but 60fps content is really tight on performance.

If anyone want test other comparison, please let me know, before selling off one of the cards.


Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk
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Old 14th February 2016, 21:07   #36139  |  Link
Ver Greeneyes
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Actually, is a file format specification of madVR's 3DLUT files available anywhere? I'm a bit confused by some of the things in the collink source (in particular, are output values supposed to be stored in the range 0x0000 - 0xff00? I would expect a range of 0x1010 - 0xebeb for video levels, but that probably just shows my ignorance).
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Old 14th February 2016, 21:22   #36140  |  Link
JarrettH
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Anyone have an image preference? 720p to 1080p

jinc, SR3
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1578/2...ab322d61_o.png

sxbr100, catmull
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1719/2...924442f2_o.png

jinc, SR3
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1633/2...00faff57_o.png

sxbr100, catmull
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1598/2...ac622d4d_o.png

Trying to decide if using SR3 is an objective improvement.
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