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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:50   #2221  |  Link
somy
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To be more precise, what I'm looking for is true 0-255 output with both WTW and BTB with no luma conversion.
But I found that my graphics card ATI HD5770 only output 16-235 if I choose RGB pixel format (with or without WTW/BTB), so the luma is compressed by ATI.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:51   #2222  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somy View Post
To be more precise, what I'm looking for is true 0-255 output with both WTW and BTB with no luma conversion.
But I found that my graphics card ATI HD5770 only output 16-235 if I choose RGB pixel format (with or without WTW/BTB), so the luma is compressed by ATI.
And how do you know that your card outputs 16-235 if you're seeing BTB/WTW?

Are you saying that it's impossible to use any other renderer than overlay with an ATI Card without having luma compression??? What if I use YCrCb 4:4:4 output and madVR renderer??

Last edited by cyberlolo; 23rd February 2010 at 12:56.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:51   #2223  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
That might work, though the quality probably will not be very high...
I still think your better option would be the Levels filter. The banding should not be noticeable in movies...
Ok, I discard the ATI Catalyst controls solution then. So we're now in a 2 option decision:

1) Set madVR to PC Levels without using ffdshow's levels filter. That way, I won't have banding, but the output will be calibrated at 16-235, so I'd lose wtw data.

2) Set madVR to TV Levels, use ffdshow's Levels Filter to have an output calibrated at 16-245 (preserving wtw), but with banding (is it true that it's not noticeable in movies???)

Which option is better??
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:53   #2224  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
Ummm, the answer to all that is to avoid HDMI like the plague.

If you use a non-ATI DVI to HDMI adapter I think you avoid all that rubbish, you certainly do if you run VGA.
When I had my old HD4850, I succeded in outputting 0-255 with BTB and WTW, and my luma ameter shows the result is perfect - meaning no conversion is introduced by graphics card. See my thread:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=152634
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:57   #2225  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Ok, I discard the ATI Catalyst controls solution then. So we're now in a 2 option decision:

1) Set madVR to PC Levels without using ffdshow's levels filter. That way, I won't have banding, but the output will be calibrated at 16-235, so I'd lose wtw data.

2) Set madVR to TV Levels, use ffdshow's Levels Filter to have an output calibrated at 16-245 (preserving wtw), but with banding (is it true that it's not noticeable in movies???)

Which option is better??
Let me make the long story shorter:
1. HTPC outputs 16-235 but contains BTB/WTW (0-255 compressed to 16-235)
2. HTPC outputs 16-235 with NO BTB/WTW and grey black/washed white(add white and black to 16-255 to make it 0-255 and then compressed to 16-255, this is evil. If you remember ATI CCC 9.12 fixed this problem for PowerDVD, before you always get grey black/white)
3. HTPC outputs 16-235 with NO BTB/WTW (16-235 expanded to 0-255 then compressed to 16-235, typical if you choose RGB output)
4. HTPC outputs 0-255 with BTB/WTW (IMO, this is the best option. It outputs everything from the video without luma conversion and your display decides if BTB and WTW should be cut)
5. HTPC outputs 0-255 with NO BTB/WTW and 16-235 is expanded to 0-255 (16-235 expanded to 0-255, no further compression, I have never seen such case)
6. HTPC outputs 0-255 with NO BTB/WTW and 16-235 is NOT expanded to 0-255 (add black and white to 16-235, no further compression, I have never seen such case)

See my discussion here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...79134&page=174

When I choose RGB with my ATI 4850/5770, it always outputs 16-235 with or without BTB/WTW.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 12:59   #2226  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
And how do you know that your card outputs 16-235 if you're seeing BTB/WTW?

Are you saying that it's impossible to use any other renderer than overlay with an ATI Card without having luma compression??? What if I use YCrCb 4:4:4 output and madVR renderer??
My projector Panasonic PT-AE3000 comes with internal colour and luma meter, so that I can check the input signal pixel by pixel basically.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 13:00   #2227  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
And how do you know that your card outputs 16-235 if you're seeing BTB/WTW?

Are you saying that it's impossible to use any other renderer than overlay with an ATI Card without having luma compression??? What if I use YCrCb 4:4:4 output and madVR renderer??
It's my case, some people get 0-255 when choosing RGB full. But for me, RGB full looks exactly the same as RGB limited.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 13:13   #2228  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by somy View Post
It's my case, some people get 0-255 when choosing RGB full. But for me, RGB full looks exactly the same as RGB limited.
And how can I know if it's my case too? With RGB Full I'm getting BTB/WTW, and with YCrCB 4:4:4 I get THE SAME BTB/WTW (I'm using a test pattern who shows the 0-20 and 230-254 levels). So how can I see the difference? I'm almost sure that Full RGB outputs uncompressed 0-255 with HD4850 and Catalyst 9.12...

Last edited by cyberlolo; 23rd February 2010 at 14:11.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 13:48   #2229  |  Link
Mark_A_W
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I have found that using either the video driver Gamma or Powerstrip gamma will not cause banding, as long as you use a linear curve. In powerstrip in particular you will get banding if you do a non linear gamma curve (known issue with Powerstrip gamma, it's 8 bit).
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Old 23rd February 2010, 13:59   #2230  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
Which option is better??
Go with 2).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
is it true that it's not noticeable in movies???
Yes, it would be very hard, because in real world footage the film grain acts like dithering, avoiding banding. Only in computer generated images with perfect single color bars you can notice it.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 14:01   #2231  |  Link
somy
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Originally Posted by Mark_A_W View Post
I have found that using either the video driver Gamma or Powerstrip gamma will not cause banding, as long as you use a linear curve. In powerstrip in particular you will get banding if you do a non linear gamma curve (known issue with Powerstrip gamma, it's 8 bit).
No matter you get banding or not, converting from 16-235 to 0-255 will introduce artificial luma IMO, so it's not optimal.
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Old 23rd February 2010, 14:09   #2232  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Originally Posted by yesgrey3 View Post
Go with 2).


Yes, it would be very hard, because in real world footage the film grain acts like dithering, avoiding banding. Only in computer generated images with perfect single color bars you can notice it.
Ok, thank you yesgrey3. You're being of a great help to me. I'll follow your advice and will be using option 2 until you release your new version of cr3dlut (which I guess it will not introduce banding, will it?).

We'll be patient, but don't forget us, please, and release it as soon as you can!

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Old 24th February 2010, 18:04   #2233  |  Link
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Well, after using ffdshow's levels filter yesterday and today, I've watched Star Wars The Revenge of the Sith, and episode 8 of Band of Brothers, both BD-Rip at 1080p. And while Band of Brothers was perfect, I could see some artifcats (banding) in some scenes of Star Wars. Those artifacts disappeared when I disabled levels filter (just to test it), so they were caused because of it.

yesgrey, do you have banding using your new cr3dlut to calibrate at 16-245? In other words, can we expect not having banding when you release your new version and we can calibrate with it?

Last edited by cyberlolo; 24th February 2010 at 23:36.
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Old 25th February 2010, 00:13   #2234  |  Link
yesgrey
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Originally Posted by cyberlolo View Post
can we expect not having banding when you release your new version and we can calibrate with it?
Yes, you can.
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Old 25th February 2010, 01:24   #2235  |  Link
cyberlolo
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Yes, you can.
Lol, almost like the Obama's slogan!

We'll be waiting (a bit more impatiently now) for that new version. Thanks again!
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Old 25th February 2010, 01:44   #2236  |  Link
yesgrey
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Lol, almost like the Obama's slogan!
It was not intentional.
I have simply answered "Yes.", but any message has to have at least 5 characters, so I added the "you can" words. That's the most funny about it...
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Old 25th February 2010, 18:13   #2237  |  Link
Lethal Jelly
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does anybody know whether the core i3-530's intergrated graphics will be able to handle madVR? planning a mITX build. Thanks a lot!
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Old 26th February 2010, 01:01   #2238  |  Link
Mangix
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it won't
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Old 26th February 2010, 11:15   #2239  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Lethal Jelly View Post
does anybody know whether the core i3-530's intergrated graphics will be able to handle madVR? planning a mITX build. Thanks a lot!
I would say generally no, but it also depends on what scaling do you want to use and your display resolution, I guess. In my experience, 3870 can't handle Spline64 on 2560x1600, but 5770 does, for example. So if your resolution isn't too high, or you're happy with bilinear/bicubic, maybe.
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Last edited by Hypernova; 26th February 2010 at 11:18.
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Old 26th February 2010, 11:30   #2240  |  Link
namaiki
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Originally Posted by Lethal Jelly View Post
does anybody know whether the core i3-530's intergrated graphics will be able to handle madVR? planning a mITX build. Thanks a lot!

Do the new Intel IGPs support non powe of 2 textures?
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