Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion. Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules. |
5th February 2004, 03:09 | #1 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Somewhere On This Planet
Posts: 734
|
encodeing progressive interlaced
Now i have a video stream that seems to start progressive then goes interlaced.Now if i encode it interlaced would thise do any damage to the small progressive part??
|
5th February 2004, 03:14 | #2 | Link |
jdgljlfljg
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tony Abbott's electorate
Posts: 1,393
|
The progressive bits may be better encoded using zigzag, but if using alternate I doubt you'd notice the difference. Similar deal with using interlaced=true rather than interlaced=false in your avisynth script. I wouldn't worry about it...
|
9th February 2004, 13:00 | #3 | Link | |
avatar doesn't support IE
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Great Southland
Posts: 2,238
|
Re: encodeing progressive interlaced
Quote:
the interlaced flag wont matter to playback, as long as you dont let CCE shift the video down a little. Enf...
__________________
Sometimes I get halfway through a paragraph explaining something, then I just completely forget what I was thinking about which is when you will notice that the paragraph just ends rather abruptly... |
|
9th February 2004, 21:26 | #4 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Italia
Posts: 412
|
Little note:
1) CCE accepts/threats only YUY2 for input 2) MPEG2 and DVDs are effectively coded in YV12 (even by CCE) Quote:
Quote:
One may think in this case he can add a simple "ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)" to his Avisynth script and than config CCE for progressive encoding, since the material is progressive itself. Ok the avisynth addition is right, but since original stream is (by unknown reason) stored in interlaced structure the chroma lines have indipendent values for odd and even lines. My advise in this scenario (very common) is to configure CCE for interlaced material otherwise the chroma will result overall blurred or blocky, with a 4x2 pixel pattern. (!) now MY QUESTION IS, when encode "false-interlaced material" with CCE using interlaced mode too (progressive flag off) is it advised to use zigzag or alternate block scanning ? |
||
10th February 2004, 00:29 | #5 | Link |
jdgljlfljg
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tony Abbott's electorate
Posts: 1,393
|
@unplugged, for progressive content marked as interlaced, I've always used interlaced=false in avisynth and checked progressive in CCE.
I was of the opinion that the interlaced flag means absolutely nothing for progressive content...are you sure about it being best to mark the content as interlaced? |
10th February 2004, 12:06 | #6 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Italia
Posts: 412
|
Quote:
The chroma lines are combed (interlaced), I have made a simple test and VirtualDub shows that when encoding as progressive the lines get blurred together. YV12 interlaced ---> YV12 progressive conv. is a disaster for chroma dynamics whether the content is combed or not! In few words there is a total loss in vertical chroma resolution. |
|
11th February 2004, 02:21 | #7 | Link |
jdgljlfljg
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tony Abbott's electorate
Posts: 1,393
|
Could you tell me how to replicate this test please?
I just tried encoding a chapter from one of these DVDs (source interlaced and zigzag) with interlaced=true in avisynth and CCE and then repeated with interlaced=false. Used zigzag both times. Used 1 pass Q20 and couldn't see any obvious differences (of course that is not exactly reliable, to say the least). The "interlaced" encoded file is 1.2 percent larger. |
11th February 2004, 19:02 | #8 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 27
|
Quote:
|
|
12th February 2004, 00:47 | #9 | Link | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Italia
Posts: 412
|
Quote:
Load the scripts using 2 VirtualDub sessions and set 300% zoom, search a colorful or red part in your test movie and see which has better luma-chroma matching, especially on edges. Original movies stored as interlaced should have the right luma-chroma matching with the parameter set to true. Sadly, there are movies encoded as interlaced but without chroma channels originally rearranged for interlaced encoding (not RGB/YUY2, but YV12 need this!), these appears better with interlaced set to false. Quote:
You can also use Bitrate Viewer program. |
||
12th February 2004, 02:36 | #10 | Link |
jdgljlfljg
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tony Abbott's electorate
Posts: 1,393
|
I know this is stupid but i can't figure out how to zoom in virtualdub
That aside, why use the convert to RGB - we are not using it for DVD backups. I believe what Eki was asking was how to determine whether for progressive content reported as interlaced by BV or DVD2AVI: A) The movie has been encoded in an interlaced fashion; or B) Whether the movie has been encoded in a progressive fashion, but has just been marked as interlaced (the flag can be set in pulldown, for example, without re-encoding - not that authoring houses would do that, obviously). |
12th February 2004, 10:12 | #11 | Link | |||
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Italia
Posts: 412
|
Quote:
(but before, please uncheck DirectX accel. in preferences, set 24-bit output, save options and restart VirtualDub) Quote:
Quote:
But I *guess* that if a movie is encoded in interlaced way, it's internally divided in 2 fields per frame (encoded indipendetly), in this case "interlaced" can't be only a flag (can't be not considered for correct playback, because it's part of structure). |
|||
12th February 2004, 12:58 | #12 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 27
|
Quote:
Last edited by Eki; 12th February 2004 at 13:21. |
|
12th February 2004, 14:08 | #13 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Italia
Posts: 412
|
Yes
Interesting, I have just tryed Bitrate Viewer (I mosty use DVD2AVI) and I found (as you) two infos: "picture structure" and "frame type". The first info can be "frame" or (?)"field", the second, and I am sure of this, can be "interlaced" or "progressive". Now I would say that picture structure is the parameter to take with care! Doh, I have never noticed it before, thus maybe the other called "frame type" is only player related but now expert is needed here. DVD2AVI surely reports only this last flag (it seems to match with Bitrate Viewer "frame type"). Last edited by unplugged; 12th February 2004 at 14:11. |
12th February 2004, 14:34 | #14 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Italia
Posts: 412
|
My apologies Matthew, that you have referred as flag was right because the property commonly called "interlaced" or "progressive" it's NOT struture related.
"Picture structure" should be the trusted value: for "frame" --> YV12 progressive --> ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=false) --> CCE set to progressive for "field" --> YV12 interlaced --> ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true) --> CCE set to interlaced |
12th February 2004, 23:50 | #15 | Link |
jdgljlfljg
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tony Abbott's electorate
Posts: 1,393
|
mmmm...I'm as perplexed as ever...a few things:
-CCE only outputs as picture structure = frame -I've had a commercial DVD which is mixed content and picture structure is frame -Procoder says following in regards to its picture structure settings: "This determines how the field data is stored in the MPEG stream, possibly optimizing compression. This does NOT determine whether the output is interlaced or progressive. Automatic Selection will have the encoder will handle still and low-motion frames as full frames, and handle motion frames as interlaced. Some players may have problems with this method, in which case you should use one of the other options. Always Frame Structure will have the encoder store as full frames and tends to be the most compatible mode. Always Field Structure will have the encoder store as fields." So if picture structure was the guide, would that not mean truely interlaced content with picture structure = frame should have interlaced=false in avisynth script? That doesn't seem to make sense. |
13th February 2004, 09:16 | #16 | Link |
Retired
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,349
|
Matthew is right, field pictures don't necessarily mean interlaced video. So far I think Procoder is the only encoder that supports this and I have rarely seen it on DVDs. I have exactly one DVD that is encoded with field picture structure.
Anyway unplugged, you are making a good point. I think you are right in that if the source MPEG2 stream was encoded as frame_type interlaced (DVD2AVI or BitrateViewer are good to check this), then it should be converted to YUY2 with interlaced=true. Also check out this post: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...800#post354127 which further explains this. Looks like always using ConvertToYUY2(Interlaced=True) is the best compromise. Now as for how to set up CCE. Thinking about it, it should really be set according to the encoding parameters of the source MPEG. That is, 'progressive frame off/alternate' if that's what the source is according to BitrateViewer, no matter whether the source actually "looks" interlaced or not. However, if the source is not "truly" interlaced (no interlacing artifacts visible), I would at least set block scanning order to ZigZag as this only effects motion search and storing of the DCT coefficients but not the croma. I just did a short test with a DVD source that according to BV was interlaced/alternate but really loked progressive (like most DVDs), setting CCE to interlaced/alternate, interlaced/zigzag and progressive/zigzag. It did not make any difference in the Q factor levels, just the alternate setting slowed CCE down by about 0.2 RT. Looking at the output, I honestly can't tell any difference, but anyway interlaced is the "more accurate" setting as we now know. This begs for a new FAQ item I think... Last edited by RB; 13th February 2004 at 09:29. |
15th February 2004, 06:40 | #18 | Link | |
jdgljlfljg
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Tony Abbott's electorate
Posts: 1,393
|
Quote:
I'm hoping (perhaps unrealistically) that this is possible and a regular occurance, because I've encoded all of these types of DVDs (and they are extremely common) using progressive settings. At least it seems I was right to use zigzag even when alternate was used on the original DVD, though. |
|
16th February 2004, 21:20 | #19 | Link | |
Retired
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,349
|
@Eki: http://www.bretl.com/mpeghtml/fldfrm.HTM
Quote:
|
|
|
|