Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Capturing and Editing Video > New and alternative a/v containers

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th July 2003, 15:06   #41  |  Link
Koepi
Moderator
 
Koepi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,454
Thanks bond!

Ok, seems like it's necessary to track that down. If you use "render media file" in graphedit with your nero generated aac, which works in your example, which graph gets built? I'm sorry, I don't have the time to play around with aac and thus am dependant on your info

if the error message is really "failed to render input .aac" then there's a bug in the OggMux GUI, not sending the proper file name.

Regards
Koepi
Koepi is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 15:09   #42  |  Link
bond
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,770
Quote:
Originally posted by Koepi
Ok, seems like it's necessary to track that down. If you use "render media file" in graphedit with your nero generated aac, which works in your example, which graph gets built? I'm sorry, I don't have the time to play around with aac and thus am dependant on your info
no problem
no graph can be built (i guess because there isnt something like an "aac splitter")!
when muxing in graphedit i used
input .mp4 -> 3ivx splitter -> ogg multiplexer -> output .ogm

Quote:
if the error message is really "failed to render input .aac" then there's a bug in the OggMux GUI, not sending the proper file name.
sorry my fault
the error message of course mentions the used file name
__________________
Between the weak and the strong one it is the freedom which oppresses and the law that liberates (Jean Jacques Rousseau)
I know, that I know nothing (Socrates)

MPEG-4 ASP FAQ | AVC/H.264 FAQ | AAC FAQ | MP4 FAQ | MP4Menu stores DVD Menus in MP4 (guide)
Ogg Theora | Ogg Vorbis
use WM9 today and get Micro$oft controlling the A/V market tomorrow for free

Last edited by bond; 11th July 2003 at 15:25.
bond is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 15:16   #43  |  Link
el00343
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 16
having just read the thread, all I can say is that this is great news indeed! So much for the "death of OGM".
el00343 is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 15:24   #44  |  Link
DAvenger
hacked
 
DAvenger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bratislava, Slovak Republic
Posts: 440
Quote:
Originally posted by el00343
having just read the thread, all I can say is that this is great news indeed! So much for the "death of OGM".
Let's hope we will see some progress on the above mentioned ogm issues Competition is vital
__________________
Pokec o sexe, láske a vzťahoch : http://www.mojvztah.sk

Spyware, malware a vírusy : http://www.antispyware.sk

Hudba, texty, akordy, noty, albumy, mp3 a videoklipy : http://www.musicworld.sk
DAvenger is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 16:18   #45  |  Link
Atamido
Señor Member
 
Atamido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 915
Quote:
Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Lets start with SSA ... how are you going to handle overlapping timecodes in OGM ? Any ideas here ?
I don't think that this will be to hard. In Matroska we strip the timecodes/duration out of the subs and use them at the container level. In OGM it would probably be easy to just leave them in, or create a field specifically for duration. Then you could store an event at the appropriate timecode, and using that timecode, and the stored duration, you should be able to reconstruct the original timecodes. I think at that point it just becomes a matter of the support for those structures being added to VSFILTER.

I'm a bit rusty with the OGM structure, can anyone tell me if there would be a problem with that?

A bigger question in my mind would be how to use forward referencing frames in OGM. I think that currently MPEG-4 codecs are using packed bit-stream only, but there should be a way in OGM to store the frames individually. Any ideas for this?

@Koepi: Chill. I misunderstood Liisachan's comment.
Atamido is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 16:47   #46  |  Link
unmei
frying subs
 
unmei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: ch-2500
Posts: 891
oh i'm glad to see the storm in here seems a over ;D

i don't know much about the philosophy in OGM but i would understand if the concept was not that radical to attempt to break with old bad avi habits. I think at the moment it is not a big downpoint not to support native (err how you call it ? independent frame packing ?) as all the current codecs support the packed bitstream. This should not mean i would oppose someone implementing it, but i guess it's a rather big work someone has to find time for first.

There are sure a lot of small improvements easier coded that could give the end user more obvious instant improvment in "usage easeness" (the mentioned extended audio and subtitle format support for example)
à la "simple" things first...
__________________
-nyo
unmei is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 17:07   #47  |  Link
Atamido
Señor Member
 
Atamido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 915
One other thing. OGM is currently using a "samplerate" that is set the the fps of the video. So, then the "granulepos" becomes the frame number. You would probably want to change this to use a default behaviour of using milliseconds as the samplerate, and then the timecode in ms for the granulepos.

This would allow vfr video as the default config. (and I'm not refering to dropping drupeframes that has recieved so much attention recently) I don't THINK this would break anything, but I'm not that familiar with how the DS filter works.
Atamido is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 20:09   #48  |  Link
Stux
Registered User
 
Stux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 252
Packed Bitstream is not MPEG-4 compliant.
__________________
http://www.3ivx.com
Stux is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 21:25   #49  |  Link
Atamido
Señor Member
 
Atamido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 915
Oops, I meant to say, "I think that currently MPEG-4 codecs are using packed bit-stream only in AVI". I would not be inclined to call packed bitstreams in AVI, MPEG-4 compliant. However, I have heard some compelling arguments for otherwise.
Atamido is offline  
Old 11th July 2003, 23:23   #50  |  Link
DSPguru
BeSweet Author
 
DSPguru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: On top of a supercompact cardinal
Posts: 3,506
Cheers to Tobias !
i don't know about Xiph's plans, but it is vital that the following code will stay inside the OggDS sources :
Quote:
if (vorbis_comment_query_count(&m_vc, "LWING_GAIN"))
{
m_bPostGain = true;
m_fPostGain = (float)atof(vorbis_comment_query(&m_vc, "LWING_GAIN", 0));
}
DSPguru is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 01:15   #51  |  Link
pirata
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 144
About competition in the free source world

COMPETITION vs COLLABORATION

I don't think competition is good in the free source world. It is indeed good in the closed-source, but that's outside this forum.

I am one of those just waiting for the new matroska features to be added. I don't know about you, but I still cannot mux several, different audio streams in a mkv file. There are no chapters at all. And on top of that, I see people saying competition will be good. What will competition do? Shall it lead the devs to squeeze even more work hours out of their precious spare time? Will it force them to sleep less to do more? Don't think so. I rather think they already do all they can.

I do not agree with those who celebrate seeing the developer community going divided again, pushing 2 different containers, both of them still unable to do completely what we want. Both of them having a long way before they fulfill our needs.

The advent of Matroska had brought developers together. Some of them creating the perfect editor, others developing the best player, and others working hard on the directshow filters. We all have waited a long time to see this happen. We all hoped more and more manpower would join them, so that things would become speedier. That's the nice way about free source code.

Now, other people, who really seem to have spare time to do some nice coding, decide they want to create their own container. Maybe they like specially how OGM and OGG were conceived, and do not like the way matroska was. Or maybe they do it just for kicks. Either way, it is precious coding power that goes through the window. Again.

Hey people, why don't we create our own Linux? I vote for the new name: Xunil!
pirata is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 03:28   #52  |  Link
defeatist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 18
I agree with pirata. I humbly request that the Matroska team maintain focus on their goal of entirely replacing AVI with MKV, a goal which OGM never could and IMHO never can attain. I even more humbly request the same focus of the community.

For as long as OGM has been available I have tried to avoid AVI in its favor. My primary reason for doing so has been my preference for OggVorbis, which I consider far superior to MP3. In addition of crouse is the fact that OGM's features far surpass those of AVI. In these ways I have been biased towards OGM. However, I cannot deny the inexplicable problems I have had with OGM in almost every scenario. EVERY OGM I have muxed and played has displayed the following general problems:

1) Loss of position when changing playback speed in any player
2) Loss of all frames until next keyframe when CPU usage peaks
3) Heavy jitter when background tasks use x CPU % (x is always greater for AVI & MKV)
4) Inability to seek to any non-keyframe in a reasonable time

More specifically, my results with AC3 in OGM have been uniformly horrible. I experience seemingly random sync (i.e. a/v sync fluctuates unpredictably) during playback. I do not experience this problem with the same XVID/AC3 tracks in MKV or AVI. I realize some have had better results, but that very fact displays OGM's greatest problem: its unpredictability of performance on any given system.

I realize all of the above problems can be attributed to the DirectShow filters and not the container itself. However, all the versions I have used display the same problems, and I doubt any forthcoming filters (if they ever appear) will solve them. It is my poorly educated but fairly experienced suspicion that OGM is, by its very nature and specifications, unsuited for audio-video containment.

The OGG container that Tobias modified was not designed to hold video data. As far as I know, OGM is essentially a hack (admittedly an educated, clean, and legal one) of an audio-oriented container. It's very foundation contradicts its application via OGM. Furthermore, Tobias never intended its widespread usage (and it's arguable that such usage does not exist).

Matroska, on the other hand, was conceived and has been designed to be THE replacement for AVI, which remains in usage by the vast majority of encoders. Its foundation is equal to its application. Its form fits its function.

I used to believe AVI was still prefered mostly because of ignorance of OGM's existance and of OggVorbis' superiority to MP3. Now, however, I suspect otherwise. Perhaps AVI prevails because its more educated users have found that OGM's weaknesses (eg. lack of predictability, support, development, and future-proofing) overcome its advantages (eg. support of chapters, oggtags, OggVorbis, streaming, multiple audio tracks). Obviously OGM has been used almost exclusively for dual-audio encodes because AVI cannot do so without a hack. Mode2-form2 burning is a similar scenario.

{suddenly I'm extremely famished.... [insert more subversion, er, _arguments_ here!]}

My overall point is that OGM has been a good temporary solution for AVI's shortcomings, but it will soon be completely replaced by a much more appropriate and future-proof container, Matroska. I believe it is in our best interests to focus our usage and support on one container. I'm simply too hungry to explain why.

Please forgive the poor construction of this argument and respond as if it were coherent. Thank you so much for your time!
__________________
Beware the Leopard
defeatist is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 07:15   #53  |  Link
robUx4
Matroska Team
 
robUx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 421
Thanx for these 2 tempered posts (very rare recently). I'm glad you both got the ideas behind matroska : make people work together, give the user what they need, replace other existing containers by keeping the advantage of each (AVI, VOB, MP4, OGM, RM, AAF and others).

Historically OGM has been here before matroska and thus already have a instaled based, some people who know well about it, etc. I don't think it will ever die. AFAIK, it was created to serve Tobias' personal needs. So I guess he'll keep on using it anyway, as for other people.

What will competition bring ? More knowledge in the basket. Each advance on one side can benefit to the other side (like all the framing of RealMedia files that Gabest reverse-engineered can be put in OGM too). And it's also stimulating for the devs (including myself). So you'll probably get things sooner that ETA and it should be better than "the competitor". Otherwise it's not worth it... On the other hand OGM and matroska are not built the same, they don't share the same foundations. One is designed for streaming (and only that), the other is designed for editability (?). We tried our best to make matroska as streamable as possible, while OGM has probably received the same treatment for editability. I personally think we did a better job of catching up and that's why I have always been confident about matroska's future, even before any code existed (which seemed to piss down-to-earth people at Xiph).

So let the real competition begin and we'll see who wins in the end (much bigger user base). It's not always the best technical solution that wins. So everything is possible.
robUx4 is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 08:40   #54  |  Link
Koepi
Moderator
 
Koepi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,454
Ok, dunno where to start.

you convinced me.

I give up.

no ogm ever again.

use matroska.

it is sooooo much better and leaves no right for another format.

EDIT: just in case you didn't notice, this is sarcastic. Of course I don't give up but will help to make OGM even more usable as it is already!

Last edited by Koepi; 12th July 2003 at 09:03.
Koepi is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 09:25   #55  |  Link
bb
Moderator
 
bb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,665
I use OGM. I don't use Matroska (at least not yet). Why?

Because OGM works great. And it has been available long before any other container format that could support Ogg Vorbis.

I will continue using OGM. And I hope development will continue.

bb
bb is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 09:40   #56  |  Link
robUx4
Matroska Team
 
robUx4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 421
Koepi, plz don't make things so black & white. Of course you're not going to have me tell you (or anyone else) that matroska doesn't compare so well to OGM (or anything else) because I worked to make it the "best possible" and think I (we) made it. On a technical side, I think all people that has worked on both OGM and matroska think the same (they'll say it themselves and probably not in this thread). But I still hope for you and the OGM community that you keep on improving it/fixing it. I also hope you'll find one or more developpers that know about containers and DirectShow to work on the filter. Don't count on Xiph for that...

After all, if we can convince people to leave AVI and use more modern alternatives (smaller, more reliable, more versatile, etc), we'll both win !

Edit: Now I think we've enough talked about matroska in this thread. I hope it will be the last instance...
robUx4 is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 09:57   #57  |  Link
Nic
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,285
Hmmmm, I do think OGM still deserves its place. From day one, it became popular and very easy to use. It had more of an impact than matroska has now. Im very glad the sources have been released, the fact they weren't is what stopped me using OGM.

I think instead of comparing matroska and OGM now though, this thread should just be about OGM. And what people deem to need fixing and adding, starting off with the small things and then getting to the big important ones.

So lets have no more comparing and instead use this thread to try and improve OGM. Because discussing the pros and cons will only inflame people.

Sound fair?

-Nic
Nic is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 10:21   #58  |  Link
Koepi
Moderator
 
Koepi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 4,454
I'll try to collect a todo-list now.

OggDS:
- Muxing of audio formats: AC3, AAC (already ok - needs a splitter filter though [or must be a headerless file -> AACMachine can do that] more or less fixes for OggMux necessary), MP+, FLAC, RealVideo/Audio
- Support for additional subtitle formats and overlapping timecodes (more than one person speaking): SSA/ASS and coming USF (see SubDS filter's todo-list)
- charset should be UTF-8 (SRT doesn't accept UTF-8. This should be unified)
- Chapters: The chapter seeking algo seems to be of by one.
- Support for Vorbisgain tags ( -> LWIN_GAIN [besweet] as well)
- Add support for IAMMediaContent interface to pass some tags like "TITLE" a.s.o. to the player
- Fix the tray icon to show also the title instead of "Ogg DSF"
- Fix some problems with tray icon, which cause some players to crash when closeing
- Fix vorbis.dll (the project on the Xiph CVS has an error, which results in vorbisenc to be compiled in vorbis.dll and to get an unusual big size)
- Add support for 639-2 codes in the language tag. The corresponding LCID is then reported to the player. ( E.g. English[eng] )
- Variable Framerate support
- (planned by Tobias: multilanguage chapter names - corresponding to the audio language choosen)

SubDS:
- <font> tags in SRT(not only color, but fontsize etc)
- positioning like ASS's {\an}
- "subs collisions" so that 2+ ppl can speak at the same time in the movie (today's OGM don't accept SRTs which include overlapped data in timeline)
- UTF-8 support; without which, OGM has no future about i18n/m17n. Many minor languages don't have their proper code pages, but have all Code Points needed scattered in Unicode table. For example, I happened to get a script in Tatar (a minor language spoken in a part of Russia), and was disappointed to find I can't put Tatar subs as SRT in today's OGM no matter what. (Hence I softsubbed in Tatar using another format.)
- SSA/ASS and coming USF

Keep suggestions coming, this is a first version of a todo-list only. I'll try to keep it updated - or maybe I'll start a new, clean thread where no strange comments are going to be made [I'd delete them there]

Regards
Koepi

EDIT: cleaned up the todo-lists a little.

Last edited by Koepi; 12th July 2003 at 14:56.
Koepi is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 11:00   #59  |  Link
Nic
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,285
"Fixed some problems with tray icon..."
Are the things that you've prefixed with "fixed", are they things you've just fixed. Or things that need fixing?
Nic is offline  
Old 12th July 2003, 11:15   #60  |  Link
DAvenger
hacked
 
DAvenger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Bratislava, Slovak Republic
Posts: 440
Quote:
Originally posted by Nic
"Fixed some problems with tray icon..."
Are the things that you've prefixed with "fixed", are they things you've just fixed. Or things that need fixing?


It's a changelog from 0.9.9.5 while the released source is only 0.9.9.3 So it is necessary to do these things once again
__________________
Pokec o sexe, láske a vzťahoch : http://www.mojvztah.sk

Spyware, malware a vírusy : http://www.antispyware.sk

Hudba, texty, akordy, noty, albumy, mp3 a videoklipy : http://www.musicworld.sk
DAvenger is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.