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Old 15th February 2019, 00:35   #54741  |  Link
LigH
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Well, it is quite basic knowledge of video processing:

If it is telecined (Film => NTSC), use Inverse Telecine (IVTC); else - if it is interlaced, use a deinterlacer (preferably with bobber to double the frame rate).

And if it is a cartoon, optimize manually.

And if it is messed up by a norm conversion, dump it. More details: "exotic interlacing" by scharfis_brain (English translation hosted by StainlessS).

"Difficult" is no sensible expression in this topic. I own a DVD which has been destroyed beyond repair by a failed attempt to deinterlace it in the studio providing the original content (Kiriku).
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:43   #54742  |  Link
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madVR ivtc can detect all kinds of pattern so "cartoon" is pretty much no difference for it then film.

PsF pal is technically telecine too and using ivtc instead of deinterlancing is usually better to or deactivating deinterlancing.

the "best" deinterlancer we currently have in madVR is video deinterlancing which is frame adaptive on all GPUs
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:53   #54743  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
I'm sure you're aware that there are a lot of charts and online calculators for viewing distance and angular resolution. I like this because it takes into account the visual acuity:

http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDens2In.html

In my case with a 65'' screen at 1.5 m I can definitely see the difference between 4k and upscaled 1080p. But yeah, the content matters, I've been watching 4k transfers of old movies and the only benefit seems to be limited to the film grain.
Well I don't think you're applying the math correctly when it comes to viewing.


To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance. This is problematic in that you see so little of the frame.

So are we watching the movie, or trying to find little pixels ?


It might work as a technical standard, but it's simply impractical to be CLOSE ENOUGH , all for the sake of discerning ppi.

We're interested in the Whole picture. And that's fundamentally how they came up with the 2K standard to begin with.

They knew that Limitation for comfort viewing is well out at 2-4 meters for most sizes of TV screens.

And THAT being the limiting factor, they applied the acuity function and decided ~2K resolution is more than sufficient.


I'm not against 4K, but you can't apply the acuity function backwards, and say, let's sit this close, because we have to notice these 2 lines are different lines.
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Old 15th February 2019, 01:57   #54744  |  Link
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Originally Posted by svengun View Post
On a 55"4K OLED , 2.5M distance with just 4K res and no HDR , for me it is very noticable. Much more detail and drawing distance , add HDR in the mix and my experience is usually jaw-dropping , especially if it's not a 2k upscale UHD disc/content

It's of course very important to have the right MadVR settings (see Asmodian's High Settings and tune down where necessary, till you hit 20-30ms with smooth playback)

I finally got Tonemapping working yesterday on 'just a GTX1060' and ca't wait to push it further with a RTX2070 in 6 weeks

Try opening scene of Blue Planet II (the wave scene, starts after a min or 2)

After getting my new GPU I will get my hands dirty with a DisplayPro colorimeter and the several cailbration software that I've collecting ... can't wait !

This is very much like the 'upgraderitus with audio' , a 100x more complicated, but luckily much cheaper ;-)
i1displaypro changed my life..

Probably for the worse.. because Now I am always looking at Spectrometers to go with the i1display, which is only a colorimeter.

Once you get i1dp, the image is much better, but then you realize, it's still WRONG, because you don't have the spectral correction data.. and for whatever reason, spectrometers are ~$1000+, recommended ones are $3000 (Before recertification)
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:31   #54745  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance. This is problematic in that you see so little of the frame.
It's not problematic at all as long as you don't have to move your head and the frame stays in your field of vision. Even with a smaller screen, you're only ever seeing the full detail of what small part of the picture your eyes are focusing on.
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
They knew that Limitation for comfort viewing is well out at 2-4 meters for most sizes of TV screens.
The common distance of 2-4 meters is not for comfort of viewing, it's because it's the distance needed to accomodate what constitutes the usual sitting area of living room i.e. several seats and a table, with bigger sitting areas being further away from the screen. Nothing prevents you from positioning your seats closer to the screen if you only have one or two, on the contrary it will provide for a better viewing experience with HD flat panels, and the idea that being too close to your TV is uncomfortable is a relic from the days of CRTs that flickered like hell and had really low pixel pitch.
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Old 15th February 2019, 03:32   #54746  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance
Fortunately I have a very good vision. I don't need at all to be so close to see the difference, I do it only because I like the inmersion feeling. So yes you're right, this shouldn't be the decisive factor.
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Old 15th February 2019, 04:41   #54747  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
It's not problematic at all as long as you don't have to move your head and the frame stays in your field of vision. Even with a smaller screen, you're only ever seeing the full detail of what small part of the picture your eyes are focusing on.The common distance of 2-4 meters is not for comfort of viewing, it's because it's the distance needed to accomodate what constitutes the usual sitting area of living room i.e. several seats and a table, with bigger sitting areas being further away from the screen. Nothing prevents you from positioning your seats closer to the screen if you only have one or two, on the contrary it will provide for a better viewing experience with HD flat panels, and the idea that being too close to your TV is uncomfortable is a relic from the days of CRTs that flickered like hell and had really low pixel pitch.

That is incorrect.


The resting vergence distance for the eye is ~1.5meter

The natural relaxed focal distance of the eye's lens is ~1.5meter

This is minimal distance something should be viewed when considering Viewing Comfort.


2-4 meter is absolutely the proper distance given the size of most people's domiciles and the availability of screen sizes. Farther is always better if not constrained by Size of equipment or Space.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:40   #54748  |  Link
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The thing I don't understand all viewing distances aside, is that people say you need to spend X on a really good OLED TV with HDR and High Nits, yet everyone says the most common TVs still do not have a high enough brightness for HDR.

You see comments on TV threads saying well your TV is only 350 NITS, so you do not have proper HDR etc etc.

But yet you have madshi and others tweaking the heck out of HDR-SDR on projectors with even lower NITS and they are saying that they don't want to use HDR passthrough as it looks so much better.

So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:52   #54749  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ?
You can't, in theory, but reality is another matter Meaning the tonemapping of those TV sets with high luminance aren't perfect either (at least with hdr10, because let's not forget about DolbyVision).
Let's suppose we have a 120 nits device. Standard fullhd bluray is maxing out at 100 nits. With hdr10 the same 100 nits rule applies and the values above 100 reserved for highlights only. So, in our case we have 20 nits to squash every highlights in.
But don't ask what happens with projectors that only capable of 50 nits

And that's the "beauty" of the whole topic: everybody can only talk about his/her setup/display without seeing anything else right beside of it! Because it's not that easy to drag around 55-65" displays (compared to a mobile phone) to your friends' house to make comparison
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Old 15th February 2019, 11:06   #54750  |  Link
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You can't, in theory, but reality is another matter
Makes sense. I would just like a simple calibration setup for HDR, as I think its great to have all these options, but unless your TV has even the simplest calibration you are chasing your tail.

But I cant see anything tutorial wise that is for setting up basic HDR as a starting point, all the reviews you read say turn everything off, but don't touch this or that, and thats all you have left to try and get a good picture, so lost with HDR tbh. Especially when every TV manufacturer labels options differently.

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Old 15th February 2019, 13:54   #54751  |  Link
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all the reviews you read say turn everything off, but don't touch this or that, and thats all you have left to try and get a good picture
Image processing on high-end TVs has become really good, so even that should be taken with a huge grain of salt as it's mostly a matter of personnal preference.

Best example is motion interpolation. Most self-proclaimed purists are very happy to watch 24p movies with judder because "hey, that's what a 24p movie is supposed to look like, it's part of movie language". Except the movie was primarily supposed to be watched in an actual movie theater where I've never seen any motion judder, probably because the projection tech is different. So, TV or projector, I always activate a tad of motion interpolation (3/10 de-judder on my LG, motionflow low on my Sony VP) to achieve what I consider to be "actual movie theater" look. I'm sure 90% of people here would consider this a blasphemy

Bottom line : random articles on the Internet saying you should turn this setting on or off on your TV or projector are not always right... Just give it a try and see 1) if you see a difference and 2) if you like it.

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Old 15th February 2019, 13:59   #54752  |  Link
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check up the term judder.

both TV and projector in cinemas are able to show the same type of motion judder free 24 hz.

the term judder comes from displaying 24 frames at 60 hz aka 3:2 judder(there are other types of judder too) which creates shaking movement and looks abyssal in camera pan shoots.
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Old 15th February 2019, 14:03   #54753  |  Link
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Watching 24p movies with judder is terrible and I don't think any video purists would suggest that. You do not need motion interpolation to avoid judder

I also tested all the processing options of my TV and turned them off because they damage the image, most obviously by converting to 4:2:2 to do the processing.

I agree that one should test themselves but the processing on many TVs does do a lot of damage to the output from madVR.
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Old 15th February 2019, 14:20   #54754  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
check up the term judder.

both TV and projector in cinemas are able to show the same type of motion judder free 24 hz.

the term judder comes from displaying 24 frames at 60 hz aka 3:2 judder(there are other types of judder too) which creates shaking movement and looks abyssal in camera pan shoots.

Yup. I used to be bothered by judder, Until I realized, Camera pan shots look crappy no matter what you do, because it's 24fps..

Where's that damn 48fps hobbit..

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Watching 24p movies with judder is terrible and I don't think any video purists would suggest that. You do not need motion interpolation to avoid judder

I also tested all the processing options of my TV and turned them off because they damage the image, most obviously by converting to 4:2:2 to do the processing.

I agree that one should test themselves but the processing on many TVs does do a lot of damage to the output from madVR.
Let's not forget 24p in general is poop.. Save us James Cameron



Madvr is a brute force sort of processor. Bundled TV processors, well they have to make a buck.

If we add up cost, a Strictly Madvr build ~$200 GPU + $300 CPU + $150 Motherboard + $50 Cooler + $50 Powersupply + $150 Ram + $50 case, That's $950 already for the image processor.

The whole damn TV is ~$500-2000, how could they possibly match the ability of a $950 image processor, and Madshi's immense TALENT . ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 15:12   #54755  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
how could they possibly match the ability of a $950 image processor, and Madshi's immense TALENT . ?
I'll drink to that
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Old 15th February 2019, 15:19   #54756  |  Link
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Guys is print screen better than the MPCHC jpg screenshot for madvr ?
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Old 15th February 2019, 15:32   #54757  |  Link
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it'S not an generally an jpg so yes possible better.
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Old 15th February 2019, 16:29   #54758  |  Link
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
That is incorrect.
The resting vergence distance for the eye is ~1.5meter
The natural relaxed focal distance of the eye's lens is ~1.5meter
This is minimal distance something should be viewed when considering Viewing Comfort.
Ah, apologies, I assumed that by comfort you meant sensitivity to light intensity, flicker, or motion.
For my part I am able to read books or even work all day on a computer display from 75 cm very comfortably (as long as its backlight doesn't flicker).
Of course I don't do that with my TV because of living space considerations, but not because of eye comfort considerations.
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Old 15th February 2019, 17:57   #54759  |  Link
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If they'd just release those 10000 nit displays they're holding back from us we wouldn't need any of madvr's magical tone mapping! (Come on, that was hilarious! )
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Old 15th February 2019, 19:16   #54760  |  Link
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If they'd just release those 10000 nit displays they're holding back from us we wouldn't need any of madvr's magical tone mapping! (Come on, that was hilarious! )
It's only 10000 with single lcd layer

So... we'd need 20,000 with the panasonic light modulation layer + lcd layer

Then throw in blur reduction blinking, something like 30-40,000cd ?
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