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Old 5th February 2017, 17:11   #42281  |  Link
Xaurus
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huhn,

Well for what it's worth, I just watched an episode now with NNEDI3 instead of NGU and guess what - no frame drop spikes...
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Old 5th February 2017, 17:24   #42282  |  Link
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NEDDI 3 is generally less costly especially if you have a powerful CPU/GPU combination.

What you see are drops based on the fact that the GPU Shader and Driver have problems to hold the Performance at a given resolution the overhead eats everything and NGU is thirsty for Shaders it eats them alive and depending on the overall System stability state you could run into all kind of performance mulithread issues on Windoze resulting in frames get droped and then the big buffers wont help either anymore.
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Old 5th February 2017, 18:29   #42283  |  Link
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FYI, I'm running Windows 10 64 bit with a Nvidia GeForce GTX 1080 and up-scaling everything to 3840x2160p59.

Trying out the new "pixel art" NGU.

I ran through several clips of 480p animated material of varying quality, starting with my current settings of chroma NNEDI3-32 and Luma doubling NNED13-64 neurons; quadrupling 32 neurons.

I then compared the same 480p clips with NGU pixel art with NGU set to "'very high" for both chroma and luma.
So far, it works extremely well and could replace NNEDI3 in my set up for SD content.

It does provide a "smooth" looking picture for SD and not overly sharp as the original NGU for SD content. Lines look good too, aliasing is kept in check, at least to my eyes.
Also, I averaged 3-4 millisecond less rendering times with the pixel art NGU than with NNEDI3.

So far, a very nice improvement for standard def up-scaling in this test build, Madshi. Keep up the great work!
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Old 5th February 2017, 18:50   #42284  |  Link
Georgel
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@madshi

Thank you for answering all our questions!

I'm still curious about this; I am watching FHD videos, especially anime on a 2560 x 1440 display. Should I be using NNEDI or XBR or NGU for best results?

Also, regarding the new NGU pixart, I will try to give you a subjective order of how I prefer the images from the samples selected earlier:

Jinc < Waifu2x < NGU Very High <NNEDI 256< NNEDI 16 < NGU Pixart Very High< NGU Pixart Low = NGU Pixart Med < Super XBR

I will try to generate a series of samples by myself and maybe the results will be different, but this is the preliminary thoughts about the samples provided. for the sample provided, when zoomed in at a 300% factor.

When viewed at 100% of it's zoom, the order changes radically:

Jinc < SuperXBR < NNEDI 16 < NNEDI 256 < NGU Very High < Waifu2x <NGU Pixart Very High < NGU Pixart Med < NGU Pixart Low

I hope that it helps you out - this is just my subjective opinion on the samples given though, sorry if it digresses from anyone else's.

returning to my question, I understand that watching 1920 x 1080 materials on an 2560 x 1440 display is not the best idea, but which algo would be best for anime?
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Old 5th February 2017, 18:50   #42285  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citrixscu View Post
Do you find any perceptable quality differences between using NGU to upscale to 2160 and then another algorithm to get you back to 1440? I am in the same position and tend to alternate back and forth between NGU luma high and Jinc AR. The only real difference I see is the rendering times are quite a bit higher with the NGU method, for valid reasons.
Honestly, there isn't much point in doubling and scaling down. Too many conversions will screw with the image quality. I'm just going to go back to Jinc as it still looks the best and performs great. Maybe a scaler that's superior will show up at some point, but for now, Jinc is the gold standard in scaling.
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Old 5th February 2017, 18:59   #42286  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
pixelart image are perfect images. so we can do some stuff we can't do with other images.

so the NN x2 upscald line thickness is a good indictor for a "neutral" line thickness.
with NGU pixart the upscaled image has still a line thickness of 1 pixel and very small boarder.
the lines on the background hills are to thin. NGU pixart is even changing the boarder size from time to time..
BTW. NGU veryhigh is pretty much perfect 2 pixel lines. ignoring all the other problems.
Why does a 1 pixel wide line in the source image have to result in an exact 2 pixel wide line in the upscaled image? When talking about highly aliased sources, there's no guarantee that assumption must be true. If you want each source pixel to map exactly to a 2x2 pixel in the upscaled image, basically you can do nearest neighbor upscaling. The pixel art specific algos like NNEDI3 and NGU pixart work differently. They take each source pixel as a given pixel and don't make any fixed assumptions on how the "missing" pixels in the upscaled image should look like. Instead they try to understand the overall image structure and then decide which interpolated pixels have the highest probability of being correct.

If you look at the NNEDI3-256 image, the lines are not exactly 2 pixels, either. Some of them are sharper/thinner than that, too. But you already said you never liked NNEDI3, either. Maybe that's why?

When talking about "hand drawn" pix art like Mario or other games, where each pixel was carefully set by an artist, I suppose another different algorithm could be designed which does make some assumptions like a 1 pixel wide line should double to a 2 pixel wide line. But if you think about aliased Anime videos, there could be many different reasons for why they could be aliased. One good reason is that at some point someone might have simply dropped every other line or colum (aka nearest neighbor downscaling). When doing that, a 1 pixel wide line in the low-res image could either be a 1-pixel wide line in the high-res image, or a 2-pixel wide line, or something in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it produces some ugly chroma bleeding in the clouds and other white parts:
https://picload.org/image/rocllwow/mariochromaissue.png
i guess it comes from the half pixel shift
nnedi3 has this problem too but way less.
The chroma bleeding probably comes from using Bicubic60 for chroma upscaling. Try switching to NGU pixart very high quality. That will result in NGU pixart to be used for the chroma channels, too. That should reduce chroma bleeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberscott View Post
I ran through several clips of 480p animated material of varying quality, starting with my current settings of chroma NNEDI3-32 and Luma doubling NNED13-64 neurons; quadrupling 32 neurons.

I then compared the same 480p clips with NGU pixel art with NGU set to "'very high" for both chroma and luma.
So far, it works extremely well and could replace NNEDI3 in my set up for SD content.

It does provide a "smooth" looking picture for SD and not overly sharp as the original NGU for SD content. Lines look good too, aliasing is kept in check, at least to my eyes.
Also, I averaged 3-4 millisecond less rendering times with the pixel art NGU than with NNEDI3.

So far, a very nice improvement for standard def up-scaling in this test build, Madshi. Keep up the great work!
Finally some good news - thanks!

So would you say image quality is the same as before with 3-4 milliseconds saved? Or is image quality slightly better or worse than before? Can you see a difference in quality between NGU pixart Very High and NGU pixart Medium?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
I'm still curious about this; I am watching FHD videos, especially anime on a 2560 x 1440 display. Should I be using NNEDI or XBR or NGU for best results?
IMHO, if your source is clean (meaning no visible aliasing and no noticeable compression artifacts), standard NGU is the best algorithm to use. If your source is highly aliased (some low-res Anime sources seem to be), NGU pixart or NNEDI3 might be the best solution instead. Not sure what to do with sources that have lots of compression artifacts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
Also, regarding the new NGU pixart, I will try to give you a subjective order of how I prefer the images from the samples selected earlier:

Jinc < Waifu2x < NGU Very High <NNEDI 256< NNEDI 16 < NGU Pixart Very High< NGU Pixart Low = NGU Pixart Med < Super XBR

I will try to generate a series of samples by myself and maybe the results will be different, but this is the preliminary thoughts about the samples provided. for the sample provided, when zoomed in at a 300% factor.

When viewed at 100% of it's zoom, the order changes radically:

Jinc < SuperXBR < NNEDI 16 < NNEDI 256 < NGU Very High < Waifu2x <NGU Pixart Very High < NGU Pixart Med < NGU Pixart Low
It's interesting that you like super-xbr much more when zoomed at 300% and much less in 100% view. It's also interesting that you seem to like NGU pixart low quite a lot. It does have visible more aliasing in the final image compared to NGU pixart medium, so I find that a bit surprising.
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Old 5th February 2017, 19:28   #42287  |  Link
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Originally Posted by AngelGraves13 View Post
NGU-VeryHigh still performs quite slow on my 1080 GTX and drops frames down to 0-2 render queue, so it's still unuseable.
Do you try setting the player's power management mode to "Prefer maximum performance" on NV control panel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
1) Do you think NNEDI3 looks better? Or the new NGU pixart variant?
2) How does performance compare for you?
3) Can I replace NNEDI3 with NGU pixart in the next official build (pretty please)?
4) Can I replace super-xbr (for luma doubling, only) with NGU pixart in the next official build?
1)I have tested some aliased low-res anime content, I think NGU pixart did a good job of reducing aliasing and some artifacts even better than NNEDI3. I compared NGU pixart-very high with NNEDI3-128, the sharpeness is similar, but NGU pixart is cleaner and use less performance.

2) NGU pixart-very high is faster than NNEDI3-128, but a little slower than NNEDI3-64 (Graphics card is GTX 1060 6GB)

3)IMO, yes, I think NGU pixart is good enough to replace NNEDI3.

4)I don't use super-xbr at all so I have no comment.
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Old 5th February 2017, 19:43   #42288  |  Link
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madshi, i just tested NGU pixart very high VS NNEDI3 256 on low quality SD anime source. Both look VERY similar. Performance wise NGU is 12ms while NNEDI3 is 21ms. Great job!
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Old 5th February 2017, 19:45   #42289  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neet009 View Post
1)I have tested some aliased low-res anime content, I think NGU pixart did a good job of reducing aliasing and some artifacts even better than NNEDI3. I compared NGU pixart-very high with NNEDI3-128, the sharpeness is similar, but NGU pixart is cleaner and use less performance.

2) NGU pixart-very high is faster than NNEDI3-128, but a little slower than NNEDI3-64 (Graphics card is GTX 1060 6GB)

3)IMO, yes, I think NGU pixart is good enough to replace NNEDI3.

4)I don't use super-xbr at all so I have no comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pose View Post
madshi, i just tested NGU pixart very high VS NNEDI3 256 on low quality SD anime source. Both look VERY similar. Performance wise NGU is 12ms while NNEDI3 is 21ms. Great job!
That's good to hear, thank you guys!

Can you comment on how you would rate NGU pixart "low" and "medium" quality compared to NNEDI3?
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Old 5th February 2017, 19:52   #42290  |  Link
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Did somebody already tested if that new Maxwell Compute Optimization mode (most probably different software async sheduling mode) has any impact on the Cuda Hybrid Decoder or MadVRs NNEDI3 latency wise or in general on Cuvid OpenCL/Directcompute/Cuda on for example GM204 in a multi CPU/GPU Render workflow ?
Does it bring a measurable stability improvement ?

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Old 5th February 2017, 19:54   #42291  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Why does a 1 pixel wide line in the source image have to result in an exact 2 pixel wide line in the upscaled image? When talking about highly aliased sources, there's no guarantee that assumption must be true. If you want each source pixel to map exactly to a 2x2 pixel in the upscaled image, basically you can do nearest neighbor upscaling. The pixel art specific algos like NNEDI3 and NGU pixart work differently. They take each source pixel as a given pixel and don't make any fixed assumptions on how the "missing" pixels in the upscaled image should look like. Instead they try to understand the overall image structure and then decide which interpolated pixels have the highest probability of being correct.

If you look at the NNEDI3-256 image, the lines are not exactly 2 pixels, either. Some of them are sharper/thinner than that, too. But you already said you never liked NNEDI3, either. Maybe that's why?

When talking about "hand drawn" pix art like Mario or other games, where each pixel was carefully set by an artist, I suppose another different algorithm could be designed which does make some assumptions like a 1 pixel wide line should double to a 2 pixel wide line. But if you think about aliased Anime videos, there could be many different reasons for why they could be aliased. One good reason is that at some point someone might have simply dropped every other line or colum (aka nearest neighbor downscaling). When doing that, a 1 pixel wide line in the low-res image could either be a 1-pixel wide line in the high-res image, or a 2-pixel wide line, or something in between.
it looks pretty extreme in this case

it doesn't seem to do the same for other sources where the line is not exactly 1 pixel. to be honest i haven't found any problem with NGU pixart for other sources yet.

it looks like and set and forget scaler.
or with other words i haven't found a "miss" for normal sources yet.

and of cause the x2 scaled image doesn't need a 2x line but some more close to it.

Quote:
The chroma bleeding probably comes from using Bicubic60 for chroma upscaling. Try switching to NGU pixart very high quality. That will result in NGU pixart to be used for the chroma channels, too. That should reduce chroma bleeding.
with very high and very high chroma issue is gone.
notable here is that the issue is mostly in the top left and the image is shifted to the top left.
and NGU pixart low and medium should work too or not?
running NGU medium AND NGU low on chroma to sounds ridiculously expensive.
if bicubic 60 Ar can't deal with it than there should be another cheap way to fix.
if it is 2x NGU "super low" x2 or something else doesn't matter to me as long as it doesn't add the same artifacts.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:06   #42292  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by CruNcher View Post
Did somebody already tested if that new Maxwell Compute Optimization mode (most probably different software async sheduling mode) has any impact on the Cuda Hybrid Decoder or MadVRs NNEDI3 latency wise or in general on Cuvid on for example GM204 in a multi CPU/GPU Render workflow ?
Does it bring a stability improvement ?
Someone earlier reported a very minor performance increase (1ms lower rendering time or something), but no dramatic change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it looks pretty extreme in this case

it doesn't seem to do the same for other sources where the line is not exactly 1 pixel. to be honest i haven't found any problem with NGU pixart for other sources yet.

it looks like and set and forget scaler.
or with other words i haven't found a "miss" for normal sources yet.
So if performance were identical to super-xbr we could get rid of super-xbr? It's not there yet, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
with very high and very high chroma issue is gone.
notable here is that the issue is mostly in the top left and the image is shifted to the top left.
and NGU pixart low and medium should work too or not?
running NGU medium AND NGU low on chroma to sounds ridiculously expensive.
if bicubic 60 Ar can't deal with it than there should be another cheap way to fix.
if it is 2x NGU "super low" x2 or something else doesn't matter to me as long as it doesn't add the same artifacts.
Well, the issue occurs mainly because the Mario test image has such extreme aliasing. The issue occurs simply because NGU pixart removes the aliasing, while Bicubic60 does not. So in all those places where NGU pixart has removed the aliasing, the Bicubic60 upscaled chroma channel doesn't fit the luma channel, anymore. This problem should be quite rare with real life content.

But this issue shows that chroma doubling quality *does* sometimes matter, which is also why when choosing NGU Very High, "let madVR decide" does activate NGU for chroma doubling, too.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:14   #42293  |  Link
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But this issue shows that chroma doubling quality *does* sometimes matter, which is also why when choosing NGU Very High, "let madVR decide" does activate NGU for chroma doubling, too.
but NGU medium into NGU low?
if NGU low is the fastest we have right now why not double low.
i think doubling chroma again is fine if it avoids issue like this.
but the performance cost is very high.

something that is never going to happen with super XBR BTW.

Quote:
So if performance were identical to super-xbr we could get rid of super-xbr? It's not there yet, though.
a little bit early to say this but yeah there is a chance i'm not missing super XBR.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:15   #42294  |  Link
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Someone earlier reported a very minor performance increase (1ms lower rendering time or something), but no dramatic change.
Performance is one thing stability another not always more performance means better/smoother render output and stability over time and that option seems to conquer AMD in those regards finally to overcome/workaround Hardware restrictions that most probably is by default enabled on Paxwell and now found it's way into the Maxwell Driver.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:16   #42295  |  Link
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True, I've not heard anything about stability.
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Old 5th February 2017, 20:20   #42296  |  Link
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Do you try setting the player's power management mode to "Prefer maximum performance" on NV control panel?
I use Adaptive globally. There's no need to use Maximum at any time, unless an application profile calls for it. It's a waste of energy and doesn't offer any performance improvement over Adaptive, which basically ramps up/down when needed.

As I mentioned before, I have a 1440p screen and going from 1080p to 2160p and then back down to 1440p is a huge waste of resources. I don't really like doublers, and prefer scalers that can go from point A to point B in a single pass. Doubling goes from point A to point C and then back to point B. Double then downscale... what's the point?

NGU Pixart does look quite good though, and basically fixes the issues I had with NGU, i.e., that it was too sharp and aliased.

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Old 5th February 2017, 20:42   #42297  |  Link
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As I mentioned before, I have a 1440p screen and going from 1080p to 2160p and then back down to 1440p is a huge waste of resources. I don't really like doublers, and prefer scalers that can go from point A to point B in a single pass. Doubling goes from point A to point C and then back to point B. Double then downscale... what's the point?
Your reasoning is sound, but it's just a fact of life that a lot of the most advanced scalers can only double, either for performance reasons or by design. You might still get a better result by doubling with a really advanced scaler and downscaling than by upscaling with a less advanced scaler.
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Old 5th February 2017, 21:01   #42298  |  Link
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True, I've not heard anything about stability.
Gonna do some tests with Optix and the Hybrid H.265 Decoder while running MadVR NNEDI3

Though Optix most probably would be already efficient seeing how the current driver stalls it while using CPU/GPU simultaneously.
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Old 5th February 2017, 21:16   #42299  |  Link
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@madshi

Just tested how it plays out.

The new NGU looks best at Very High with my own video materials (mostly anime).
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Old 5th February 2017, 21:24   #42300  |  Link
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on second thought: NGU Pix new algo doesn't work well enough for 1440P.

The idea is that it looks much better than all the other algorithms with Anime that comes from a low quality source but you will need something stronger than a GTX 1080 to use it at very high in both chroma and image upscaling.
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