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Old 7th June 2010, 01:09   #3021  |  Link
janos666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Is there a way to restore all the settings to default? I messed around with the flush settings so much I can't remember what the defaults were!
Delete the settings.ini file in your madVR install directory.

Did you try to set everything to "flush and wait (loop)"?

Last edited by janos666; 7th June 2010 at 01:12.
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Old 7th June 2010, 01:34   #3022  |  Link
iSeries
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Cheers janos666 - actually I've tried every combination. With the defaults it was mostly smooth but every now and again there'd be a stutter where it would drop a couple of frames. After trying all the settings it turns out the best settings for me is to set everything to 'Dont Flush'. I just watched an hour of a 1080p movie with the OSD on the screen and got 0 dropped frames (ATI 4550, W7, Aero off). Very happy
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Old 7th June 2010, 03:32   #3023  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Cheers janos666 - actually I've tried every combination. With the defaults it was mostly smooth but every now and again there'd be a stutter where it would drop a couple of frames. After trying all the settings it turns out the best settings for me is to set everything to 'Dont Flush'. I just watched an hour of a 1080p movie with the OSD on the screen and got 0 dropped frames (ATI 4550, W7, Aero off). Very happy
Dropped frames are not a reliable indicator for smooth playback. If you have dropped frames theres obviously a problem but I can get non-smooth playback and 0 dropped frames depending on setup.
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Old 7th June 2010, 03:47   #3024  |  Link
pankov
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madshi,
I have to agree with 6233638
I was thinking about requesting one more indicator in the OSD - "repeated frames". I'm not exactly sure if it's possible to have meaningful indicator showing the repeated frames having in mind all the possible variations of the display refresh rate but I guess if you are able to add such an indicator we'll be able to objectively measure the "smoothness" of the playback. After all if there are no dropped frames and no repeated frames we have perfect playback, right?
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Old 7th June 2010, 03:53   #3025  |  Link
leeperry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janos666 View Post
I set everything to "flush and wait (loop)" in v0.17 and it feels like I have a display at 72/96/120Hz or I applied some FRC filter with motion interpolation.
indeed, enabling them all to "flush and wait (loop)" looks really impressive! I'm not quite sure what to expect from those options tbh? is it supposed to be laggy w/ or w/o them? how to find the "best" combination? there's 5 options w/ 4 possible settings, that's a hell lot of combinations
I will re-read the technical details about those.

anyway it's a power-user VR, and it seems impossible to find a "unique" setup that does wonders on XP/W7 and nvidia/ATi, I hope madshi will keep all those settings...maybe by adding an "advanced" tab in the new GUI so newbies don't go overboard. One thing's for sure the "texture upload" option does wonders on my XP SP3/96SP 8800GS/197.77 forceware/Reclock/KMP/CoreAVC CUDA box!

BTW, I've got "combined writing" disabled in the XP graphic card config...I'll try to reenable it.

PS: Also, it never really worked to assign CTRL+J on one of my logitech wireless mouse buttons(tried again today)...sometimes I can make it appear but not disappear, but most of the times nothing happens. It worked perfectly w/ HR

Last edited by leeperry; 7th June 2010 at 07:21.
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Old 7th June 2010, 04:43   #3026  |  Link
cyberbeing
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I did some more testing.

For a bare minimum configuration I need to use the following in order to not get tearing:

Without After last step at least to "flush", I get very severe screen tearing.

The above isn't all that smooth, but adding Flush & Wait (loop) for both After backbuffer and After present in parallel (no apparent positive effect used individually), seems to make smoothness near-perfect.

As an added bonus, when used in parallel it reduces my present times by 25% with a 120Hz display refresh rate. The lower you set the refresh rate, the smaller the improvement in present times get, and eventually it starts increasing present times. Maybe you could explain to me why this is.



The more I test the more I'm beginning to believe that in order to get perfect smoothness you need both of the following to be true:

render time (avg) < movie frame interval
&
present time (avg) < vsync interval

I also believe that you can get away with max present/render times (5s) being greater than frame/vsync interval above ONLY if the spike lasts less time then it takes madVR to empty its queues. In other words you have 8 frames worth of time (333ms for 24fps) for render and only 3 frames worth of time (31ms for 96hz) for present.

In order to see if this theory is correct, madshi would need to add 'avg render time (over the past 333 milliseconds)' and 'avg present time (over the past 31ms)' to the CTRL+J stats. It would be very interesting to see if there was a stutter exactly when these values exceeded the frame/vsync intervals. Would making these stat changes have too large of a performance hit to make them useful?

I bring this up because I seem to be noticing stuttering whenever I set a windowed mode tweak which causes present time to be greater than vsync interval. Same goes for resize settings where I would get stuttering if they cause render time to be greater than movie frame interval (when stats are being reported correctly with After last step Flush & Wait of course). This began to make me wonder if the setting was at fault or if the present time increase was actually what was causing the issues.


BUGs
With madVR 0.17 I began getting MPC-HC hangs a lot of the time when opening a video, once again. Reclock has only detected the frame rate with no video resolution when the hang has occurred.

No matter what settings I use with madVR, I still seem to be getting the occasional 1 dropped frame here and there. Did you have any more thoughts about re-adding delayed frames? As I mentioned previously, it would be much preferred to have a delayed frame when using high refresh rates.

Windows XP SP3 x86
AMD X2 4800+ (939) @2.64Ghz (220Mhz x12)
2GB DDR400 @ 440Mhz 2-3-3-6 (1:1 ratio with CPU)
NVIDIA GTX 470 (PCI-E 1.0 w/ x8 link)
1920x1080 @120Hz (CRT Monitor)
MPC-HC w/ Reclock (100ms Pre-Buffer)
CoreAVC (Software mode), FFDshow Audio, VSFilter, Haali Media Splitter

Last edited by cyberbeing; 7th June 2010 at 09:54.
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Old 7th June 2010, 05:41   #3027  |  Link
Razoola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
BUGs
With madVR 0.17 I began getting MPC-HC hangs a lot of the time when opening a video, once again. Reclock has only detected the frame rate with no video resolution when the hang has occurred.
I can confirm this (identical hang with reclock reporting no video frames found). I have had two hangs also from about seven starts. I have also had the MPC-HC task not closing down correctly once.
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Old 7th June 2010, 05:54   #3028  |  Link
Hypernova
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
indeed, enabling them all to "flush and wait (loop)" looks really impressive! I'm not quite sure what to expect from those options tbh? is it supposed to be laggy w/ or w/o them? how to find the "best" combination? there's 5 options w/ 4 possible settings, that's a hell lot of combinations
I will re-read the technical details about those.
From madshi's replies, I think the loop option is the best one in term of chance to get smoothness if you need flushing, but you'll waste a lot of CPU cycles (and power, I think). Setting every choice to loop seems to be the best for me too, but the minimum is "after render steps"
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Old 7th June 2010, 06:34   #3029  |  Link
namaiki
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IMO what we're trying to do is find a default list of flush settings that will produce smooth playback on any PC. (if that is at all possible)

So, all flushes off would be ruled out as some people have had issues with it.

Could someone give me bad news(try it and say that it produces stutter for you or the like) in regards to:
"After render steps: flush and wait (sleep) (yes, loop will produce stutter)
after last step: flush"
which is the only combination that I know of that works on my PC (changing any one of the two above options will produce stuttering or lag).

Last edited by namaiki; 7th June 2010 at 07:46.
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Old 7th June 2010, 06:40   #3030  |  Link
Hypernova
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
IMO what we're trying to do is find a default list of flush settings that will produce smooth playback on any PC. (if that is at all possible)

So, all flushes off would be ruled out as some people have had issues with it.

Could someone give me bad news(try it and say that it produces stutter for you or the like) in regards to:
"After render steps: flush and wait (sleep) (yes, loop will produce stutter)
after last step: flush"
which is the only combination (nothing else works at all) that works on my PC (changing any one of the two options will produce stuttering or lag).
Yes it does give me stuttering. As I mentioned in my post, I need loop in "after render steps". Sleep will give a smooth playback for 3-5 seconds after pause&play, then it will stutter.

Info:
(1) ATi 3870 with 512mb ram
(2) Windows Server 2008 R2
(3) Aero on
(4) 2560x1600 + 60Hz (madVR stat say ~59.80).
(5) Single monitor setup.
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Old 7th June 2010, 06:45   #3031  |  Link
namaiki
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Do you have "flush" set for "after last step" as well as "After render steps: flush and wait (sleep)" set?

You said that you have all other flushes off.

ie:
me
after render steps: flush and wait|sleep
after last step: flush
after backbuffer: don't flush
before present: don't flush
after present: don't flush

you
after render steps: flush and wait|sleep
after last step: don't flush
after backbuffer: don't flush
before present: don't flush
after present: don't flush

Last edited by namaiki; 7th June 2010 at 06:49.
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Old 7th June 2010, 06:46   #3032  |  Link
Hypernova
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namaiki View Post
Do you have "flush" set for "after last step"?
Yes, I do.
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Old 7th June 2010, 06:50   #3033  |  Link
namaiki
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Well, that's my dream gone. :P

If I set after render steps: flush and wait|loop, I get stutter.


Appreciate it, for you trying this out right now.
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:02   #3034  |  Link
JarrettH
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I'm getting pretty serious switching lag between full screen, windowed, and seeking also; often several seconds or it just becomes a slideshow at random. I remember being much more content with 0.12 and 0.13 before all this flushing stuff came about. I hope we find some fast settings and resolve this soon

Core 2 Duo E6600
2GB DDR3
7600GT 256MB DDR3, 197.45 drivers
MPC-HC (last official, I haven't tried any beta releases)

I run the combination of Mitchell-Netravali (Luma Upscaling) and SoftCubic50 (Chroma Resampling)

I'm trying namaiki's flush & wait (sleep), flush, don't, don't, don't...back a few pages. Seems to work better than the defaults, I don't want to comment on what setting is better than another (besides madvr defaults). Is all this for ReClock? Personally I have no interest in it and I can just see these five options becoming some obsession now that they exist.

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th June 2010 at 08:39.
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:18   #3035  |  Link
namaiki
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Hypernova and others, could you please try:

after render steps: flush and wait|sleep
after last step: flush
after backbuffer: flush
before present: flush
after present: flush

On my setup it seems that the bottom three options can be set to don't flush or flush (individually and with all is fine).

Please try setting the bottom three options individually and in combination to flush and see if it will remove the stuttering.
Please to do testing with the OSD off and on.

Last edited by namaiki; 7th June 2010 at 08:36.
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:45   #3036  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
The above isn't all that smooth, but adding Flush & Wait (loop) for both After backbuffer and After present in parallel (no apparent positive effect used individually), seems to make smoothness near-perfect.
Which means that I will probably not be able to remove the flush options, because it seems that everybody needs different settings...

Can everybody please test whether the flush option "Before present" does any good? If not, maybe I can at least remove that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
The more I test the more I'm beginning to believe that in order to get perfect smoothness you need both of the following to be true:

render time (avg) < movie frame interval
&
present time (avg) < vsync interval

I also believe that you can get away with max present/render times (5s) being greater than frame/vsync interval above ONLY if the spike lasts less time then it takes madVR to empty its queues. In other words you have 8 frames worth of time (333ms for 24fps) for render and only 3 frames worth of time (31ms for 24fps) for present.
Yes, I would agree with your thoughts here. 3 frames worth of time are 125ms, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
In order to see if this theory is correct, madshi would need to add 'avg render time (over the past 333 milliseconds)' and 'avg present time (over the past 31ms)' to the CTRL+J stats.
The OSD currently only updates once per second. So such stats wouldn't be useful, unless I updated the OSD much more often (which costs performance). I also doubt that your eyes/brain work fast enough to follow 8 OSD updates for "avg present time (over the past 125ms)" per second. Or am I misunderstanding your request?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I bring this up because I seem to be noticing stuttering whenever I set a windowed mode tweak which causes present time to be greater than vsync interval.
Present times are not expected to be bigger than the vsync interval. madVR asks Direct3D to present a frame a bit less than 1 vsync before the scheduled time. Which means that if present times are higher than the vsync interval then Direct3D sometimes skips a vsync against the will of madVR. I think this will happen if Direct3D is still blocked by rendering, while it wants to present.

All this trouble will be gone in fullscreen exclusive mode. The only problem that will exist in that mode is that stuttering will happen if rendering speed simply can't keep up at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
BUGs
With madVR 0.17 I began getting MPC-HC hangs a lot of the time when opening a video, once again. Reclock has only detected the frame rate with no video resolution when the hang has occurred.
I don't seem to get this here. Can you try to find out the circumstances under which it occurs most often? Maybe it's specific kinds of video files? Maybe it only occurs with Reclock enabled (I have it disabled in the moment)? Etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
No matter what settings I use with madVR, I still seem to be getting the occasional 1 dropped frame here and there. Did you have any more thoughts about re-adding delayed frames? As I mentioned previously, it would be much preferred to have a delayed frame when using high refresh rates.
I have on my to do list to consider reimplementing delayed frames. But to be honest, I'm so sick of windowed mode. I finally want to move on to write special rendering paths for Aero and fullscreen exclusive mode, which are expected to be much less sensitive compared to windowed mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
I'm getting pretty serious switching lag between full screen, windowed, and seeking also; often several seconds or it just becomes a slideshow at random. I remember being much more content with 0.12 and 0.13 before all this flushing stuff came about. I hope we find some fast settings and resolve this soon
The flushing options aren't responsible for switching lags and such kind of bugs. These bugs must be caused by something else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
Core 2 Duo E6600
2GB DDR3
7600GT 256MB DDR3, 197.45 drivers
MPC-HC (last official, I haven't tried any beta releases)
OS? Aero on/off?

Can you please create a log for me which shows the switching lag between fullscreen <-> windowed? In order to do this, simply close MPC-HC, then rename madVR.ax to something else and "madVR [debug].ax" to "madVR.ax". Then open MPC-HC, try to reproduce the problem. If you were able to reproduce it, stop MPC-HC at once (without doing another fullscreen <-> windowed switch!!) and zip & upload the file "yourDesktop\madVR - log.txt". If you are not able to reproduce it on the first try, please stop MPC-HC again, delete the log file and try again. It would be nice if you could try to keep the log file as small as possible. Which means the quicker (after video playback start) you can reproduce the problem, the better for me.
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:50   #3037  |  Link
namaiki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarrettH View Post
I'm trying namaiki's flush & wait (sleep), flush, don't, don't, don't...back a few pages. Seems to work better than the defaults, I don't want to comment on what setting is better than another (besides madvr defaults). Is all this for ReClock? Personally I have no interest in it and I can just see these five options becoming some obsession now that they exist.
Well, I could not play 60fps video without immense lag in the previous madvr versions and same for the current version until I accidentally stumbled upon the two options and there no longer was lag. As such, it's been the best thing since sliced bread for me.(from a performance point of view?)

FWIW, I don't even know the difference between jitter and judder (though I can notice repeated frames every 5 frames or so, and I can notice stuttering) and the refresh rate of my screen isn't even matched to my video.


...but I do have Reclock running at default settings + WASAPI.

Last edited by namaiki; 7th June 2010 at 08:59.
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Old 7th June 2010, 08:57   #3038  |  Link
JarrettH
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I'm using Windows 7 Pro 32-bit and Aero, yup
also ffdshow ICL10 rev3316 with ffmpeg-mt

Into the Universe - Stephen Hawking (2 of 3), 720p
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y89DRWS4

I started the clip, double-clicked to full, double-clicked to windowed, paused once the lag was gone and closed MPC-HC

Ran, 720p
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1XX2LRD1

I started the clip, skipped to a random part in the movie, double-clicked to full, double-clicked to windowed, paused once the lag was gone and closed MPC-HC

I hope these are useful for you and that you continue with three releases per weekend

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th June 2010 at 09:38.
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Old 7th June 2010, 09:13   #3039  |  Link
Luv
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Huge thanks for this superb software,Madshi ! The progresses have been incredible lately !

So:
XP SP3
x2 4200+
HD 4770,10.2
Zoomplayer 5.02
Haali 1.7.401.3 (07/12,that's right)
1280*1024@85 Hz CRT
Latest DirectX (10/02)

Using version 0.17,all flushing disabled,3dlut activated.
x264 1080p and 720p smooth as butter,windowing stuttering is gone (Still,I loose a few frames when I open a mkv.Normal ? But tolerable for me since I can't see any kind of corruption...)

Now the big problem is the dvds.Very little work :black screen but sound and I can't recover= I have to kill the zp process.
Madshi,I have to say that I have 100 % success with the Haali renderer.
Other pbs same symptoms and full success with the Haali renderer:
-divx in .avi doesn't work,
-avc in .m2ts doesn't work (But mpeg2 and vc1 using the Ms WMP11 decoder in .m2ts works and the quality is plain fantastic !)
What's you splitter for zp,Madshi and wich version of zp are you using,please ? Does it have an incidence because I remember somebody from Inmatrix mentioning on this thread that madVR was now supported in zp 6.00.What did he mean ?

Last edited by Luv; 8th June 2010 at 18:55.
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Old 7th June 2010, 09:21   #3040  |  Link
JarrettH
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Nevermind...I can't suggest switching to EVR because you are on XP

Last edited by JarrettH; 7th June 2010 at 09:23.
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