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Old 27th January 2014, 23:14   #22081  |  Link
djfred93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If I remember correctly, this problem occurred for you multiple times already in the past. I think this is very likely not a bug in madVR, but has some other cause specific to your PC. My first guess would be some other software making trouble. E.g. do you have some sort of Microsoft security software (anti-virus or similar) running? These are known to sometimes produce such problems.
It was Avast who was making trouble. Thanks for this advice and for the new version.
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:15   #22082  |  Link
yok833
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
Same here with the last beta... Green screen with NNEDI3 chroma upscaling
&
very dark picture (but no black screen) with image doubling <use NNEDI3 to double Luma resolution> enable

Error dithering & double chroma resolution = black screen

Windows 7 + gtx 660 ti
@Madshi
here is a my log if it can help.
Both Chroma & double luma NNEDI3 are activated
Attached Files
File Type: rar madVR - log.rar (176.8 KB, 33 views)
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:21   #22083  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by yok833 View Post
@Madshi
here is a my log if it can help.
Both Chroma & double luma NNEDI3 are activated
Read the v0.87.4 announcement text!!!

Last edited by madshi; 27th January 2014 at 23:34.
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:39   #22084  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
And the CbCr channels are upscaled to the final target resolution in a separate step. Both of these operations are performed using the algorithms specified in the image up/downscaling settings pages. Finally, the separate Y and CbCr channels are joined together again and converted back to RGB.
Could you clarify this separate scaling step for the CbCr channel? Does it use the 'chroma upscaling' setting or the 'image upscaling' setting?

Or what if the destination resolution after NNEDI3 luma is smaller than 2x? Does it use the 'chroma upscaling' setting or the 'image downscaling' setting on the CbCr channel?

Also when you have NNEDI3 double both luma and chroma, are you working in RGB or YCbCr? Is only the 'image upscaling|downscaling' setting and NOT the 'chroma upscaling' used to go from 2x to destination size?

I ask, since a long time ago you changed madVR so the 'chroma scaling' setting was only used for converting sub-sampled YCbCr -> 4:4:4, followed by 'image upscaling' scaling both luma & chroma together to destination resolution. If the 'chroma scaling' setting is no longer doing 2x only scaling with NNEDI, I'd need to completely reassess my chroma setting.


Side question. What is the behavior if you set both NNEDI3 doubling, and quadrupling to 'Always'? Is madVR smart enough to only quadruple for scale factors >2x, or does it only quadruple?

Last edited by cyberbeing; 27th January 2014 at 23:42.
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:40   #22085  |  Link
6233638
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I don't know if you know this, but NNEDI3 scaling is still not working in the new builds on Nvidia cards.
Also, there seems to be a bug where the new OpenCL features are draining my wallet.


In all seriousness, the new dithering and NNEDI3 image doubling looks very nice.
NNEDI can look a bit artificial sometimes, but even when that is the case, the overall image is probably better than without it.
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:48   #22086  |  Link
DarkSpace
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Also, there seems to be a bug where the new OpenCL features are draining my wallet.
It's not a bug. It's a feature!
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:52   #22087  |  Link
flashmozzg
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I don't know if you know this, but NNEDI3 scaling is still not working in the new builds on Nvidia cards.
Also, there seems to be a bug where the new OpenCL features are draining my wallet.


In all seriousness, the new dithering and NNEDI3 image doubling looks very nice.
NNEDI can look a bit artificial sometimes, but even when that is the case, the overall image is probably better than without it.
Myabe
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Read the v0.87.4 announcement text!!!
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:56   #22088  |  Link
trip_let
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
That is very weird. I also tested with Win8.1 64. But I used a dedicated GTX 650. With 327.23 drivers I get perfectly correct image output with all NNEDI3 related options and with error diffusion. With newer drivers everything is screwed up (either black screen or green tint).
To be clear, previous versions of 0.87.x prior to 0.87.4 have the same behavior as 0.87.4 for me: the black screen on error diffusion and the red/dark thing on NNEDI3 doubling.

That said, I didn't try new drivers with 0.87.x prior to 0.87.4, but that's two variables off and I don't think that combination's going to work.

Wait, oh yeah, there was that OpenCL.dll thing. I'll go try a few different ones of these from the old drivers.

edit: looks like no luck trying different versions of the OpenCL.dll from C:\Program Files\NVIDIA Corporation\OpenCL from different driver installs. Same results.

Last edited by trip_let; 28th January 2014 at 00:09.
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Old 27th January 2014, 23:56   #22089  |  Link
madshi
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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Could you clarify this separate scaling step for the CbCr channel? Does it use the 'chroma upscaling' setting or the 'image upscaling' setting?
The "chroma upscaling" settings are only for 4:2:0/4:2:2 to 4:4:4 conversion, for nothing else. Once 4:4:4 is reached, all other scaling operations are decided by "image doubling/upscaling/downscaling" options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Also when you have NNEDI3 double both luma and chroma, are you working in RGB or YCbCr?
YCbCr because that allows you to use more neurons (higher quality) for Y and less neurons (lower quality) for CbCr. Which is also the default neuron configuration.

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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
I ask, since a long time ago you changed madVR so the 'chroma scaling' setting was only used for converting sub-sampled YCbCr -> 4:4:4
That is still the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
Side question. What is the behavior if you set both NNEDI3 doubling, and quadrupling to 'Always'? Is madVR smart enough to only quadruple for scale factors >2x, or does it only quadruple?
I've added the " - if upscaling is needed" text to the "always" option to indicate that madVR won't (ever) double if the scaling factor is <= 1.0, and madVR won't (ever) quadruple if the scaling factor is <= 2.0.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I don't know if you know this, but NNEDI3 scaling is still not working in the new builds on Nvidia cards.
Haha - you got me there for a second!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
In all seriousness, the new dithering and NNEDI3 image doubling looks very nice.
NNEDI can look a bit artificial sometimes, but even when that is the case, the overall image is probably better than without it.
Yeah, I guess I agree with that. What is your opinion about error diffusion? It's hard for me to compare. My projector dithers itself, and is never perfectly smooth. And my LCD monitor is too small to see any difference. So I can't really judge if error diffusion is an improvement over random dithering or not. Technically/scientifically it should be. And the lower noise level is visible on my projector, well in test patterns, at least. Can't really judge smoothness, though...
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:02   #22090  |  Link
Farfie
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Okay so, signature is relevant for this post... reporting performance.

Everything is working for me, but image doubling 1280x720 to 2560x1440 is absolutely killer. With error diffusion on I can forget using anything above 32 neurons. Actually I find it rather funny, with nnedi3 at 64 neurons, mitchel on chroma, with opencl error diff turned on, it can just barely.. barely not handle it. I watched the render queue slowly creep down over the course of 6 seconds before frames start dropping. Pretty funny. I feel like if I just overclocked it a bit, it might just work! (default clocks currently). I might actually start tinkering with that soon.

So what I've settled with is: error diffusion on, nnedi3@32 neurons (720p to 1440p) on luma, jinc 3+ar on chroma (I realize the chroma is overkill but as I said before, going from 64 to 32 neurons kills almost all the overhead, so the GPU is bored. Might as well up the chroma.)
I just want to make sure this is the kind of performance you're expecting.


Opinion section:
Error diffusion vs going from 32 to 64 neurons?
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:07   #22091  |  Link
leeperry
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Yeah, NNEDI does wonders with 64 neurons when upscaling VCD to 1080p

Too bad mVR doesn't align chroma properly for MPG1 but that's nothing ffdshow can't fix. I'm just not sure whether it makes any sense to output P216 as I'm doubtful about ffdshow's ability to output >8bit.

I would really appreciate some sort of indication in the OSD to know what kind of exact NNEDI upscaling is going on but anyway, I've got them set to 1.2x/2.4x with 64 neurons and my hopeless low-res files have never looked so crispy
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:07   #22092  |  Link
mimi123
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Htpc card

Quote:
Originally Posted by djfred93 View Post
The only improvement is deep color who is a smooth gradation.
I think that your projector works in 12bit but can only display 8 bit. Madvr works in 16bit but can only output 8bit.

Maybe the next physical disk will do more than 8bit.
If you want to use OpenCL, you have to choose an ati card until madshi resolve all the problem with the Nvidia card.

My card is a ati radeon hd 5770 OC and i can't do all the OpenCL stuff. I can do Jinc3 AR/Jinc3 AR/ Catmull-Rom AR+SL with debanding. I think a ATI Radeon R9 280X is good. You can compare GPU here.
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That's hard to so. It all depends on which madVR features you want to use, and at which resolutions and framerates. Some algorithms are very hard on the GPU. But the question is if you have to use them. I'd suggest that you first play with the various madVR settings with your current GPU to find out which algorithms you want to use. Then maybe we can recommend a GPU that can do what you need.

My primary play content is Bluray, then 1920*1080 and a frame rate of 23.976Hz.
My display is a JVC X3 projector and 110" screen.

At this moment I have not any discrete card, I use the intel hd3000.

I want to remove banding as much as possible and add a bit of sharpness.
I want a card that can do all this flawlessly and without artifacts and if someday Madvr can send more than 8 bits I want a compatible card.
And finally the card must to be as silent as possible.


Very thanks.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:13   #22093  |  Link
Chortos-2
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0.87 looks amazing! I have just a few quick questions about nnedi3.

First: do you correct for the half-sample shifts it introduces? (One step goes x x x x -> x y x y x y x y, and the image has now shifted by half a new sample to the left. And donít forget about chroma positioning!)

Second: I gather from the nnedi3ocl thread that you mirror edge pixels? Doing that causes lines that disappear off the edge of the screen suddenly make a sharp turn after upscaling. Of course, no edge padding is perfect, but I think replicating the edge pixel works better as a default and is normally used as such, probably in your own pre-nnedi3 rescalers too.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:23   #22094  |  Link
cyberbeing
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I know you've said the NNEDI3 shifts pixels to the left, but looking at some screenshots it appears the image is shifted both up & left (i.e. diagonally)? Is that expected?
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:33   #22095  |  Link
6233638
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Yeah, I guess I agree with that. What is your opinion about error diffusion? It's hard for me to compare. My projector dithers itself, and is never perfectly smooth. And my LCD monitor is too small to see any difference. So I can't really judge if error diffusion is an improvement over random dithering or not. Technically/scientifically it should be. And the lower noise level is visible on my projector, well in test patterns, at least. Can't really judge smoothness, though...
I need to spend more time with it to draw a "real world" conclusion.
There does seem to be less noise, and looking up close, error diffusion is a lot better than random dithering - but whether that actually translates to a visible difference that's worth the performance hit, I'm not sure yet.

Quote:
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I know you've said the NNEDI3 shifts pixels to the left, but looking at some screenshots it appears the image is shifted both up & left (i.e. diagonally)? Is that expected?
I'm seeing this too.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:34   #22096  |  Link
flashmozzg
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I know you've said the NNEDI3 shifts pixels to the left, but looking at some screenshots it appears the image is shifted both up & left (i.e. diagonally)? Is that expected?
Maybe it's because NNEDI scales only one side (X or Y), so when it scales X it shifts left, and when Y - up.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:43   #22097  |  Link
Werewolfy
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madVR v0.87.4 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* workaround added: NNEDI3 upscaling failed/froze with newer NVidia GPUs
* fixed: NNEDI3 chroma upscaling produced wrong colors with 10bit sources
* got rid of some unnecessary texture sharing
All OpenCL features (except DXVA NV12 processing) should now also work with newer NVidia GPUs. However, the current official NVidia drivers are broken and always produce zero/black output when used with D3D9 interop inside of madVR. I've tried to make it work somehow, but failed. You have to downgrade to NVidia 327.23 drivers (or older) to make the OpenCL features work with NVidia. Would be nice if someone could report the OpenCL driver bug with the current official drivers to NVidia.

Maybe the 4K downscaling performance issue could be fixed, too, but I don't know. Give it a try and let me know.
Thanks it works on my Geforce GTX660! NNEDI3 does a really good job on very aliased videos, it's really impressive. And it hides ringing too. It's definitely someting I'm going to use on some videos. My GPU can handle it for 24 fps SD videos but not 60 fps videos so profiles are going to be very useful

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NNEDI3 image doubling is completely separate from the other scaling. Think of NNEDI3 as manipulating the source video into a different resolution. The other scaling algorithms don't care what the original source video res was, they just look at the resolution of the image doubling output, and go from there.

Jinc currently doesn't support downscaling, and it always handles both X and Y. So if either X or Y need to be downscaled, Jinc can't be used (and should silently be disabled by madVR).
I tested it with a 750*576 video on a 1080p TV screen and it does seem that when I use NNEDI3, Jinc upscales in one direction and Catmull-Rom downscales in the other direction simultaneously because rendering times go up when I select Jinc 8 for upscaling for example and go up too when I select Lanczos 8 for downscaling.

I also noticed that on this video, if you select the option "if scale factor is 2x or bigger" rendering time is lower than with the option "if scale factor is 1.5x or bigger" . NNEDI3 is enabled on both case, if I disable it, rendering time go down.

Last edited by Werewolfy; 28th January 2014 at 01:08.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:50   #22098  |  Link
6233638
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Thanks it works on my Geforce GTX660! NNEDI3 does a really good job on very aliased videos, it's really impressive. And it hides ringing too. It's definitely someting I'm going to use on some videos. My GPU can handle it for 24 fps SD videos but not 60 fps videos so profiles are going to be very useful
I can see that I'm going to end up with a lot of profiles to manage too. I already had to split up my NTSC and PAL settings.

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rendering times go up when I select Jinc 8 for upscaling for example and go up too when I select Lanczos 8 for downscaling.
For what it's worth, 3-tap is generally considered the best for image quality. (though some argue for 4-tap Lanczos over 3-tap)

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Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
I also noticed that on this video, if you select the option "if scale factor is 2x or bigger" rendering time is lower than with the option "if scale factor is 1.5x or bigger" . NNEDI3 is enabled on both case, if I disable it, rendering time go down.
It's only scaling in one dimension if you select 2x.

1920/720 = 2.67x
1080/576 = 1.88x

Last edited by 6233638; 28th January 2014 at 00:54.
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:53   #22099  |  Link
cyberbeing
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And to make sure I'm no longer confused, what is the result of the following?

640x360 4:2:0 -> 1920x1080
Chroma Upscaling = NNEDI3
NNEDI3 double Luma = Enabled
NNEDI3 double Chroma = Enabled
NNEDI3 quadruple Luma = Enabled
NNEDI3 quadruple Chroma = Disabled

  • Conversion from 4:2:0 YcbCr (320x180) to 4:4:4 RGB (640x360) with 'chroma upscaling' setting NNEDI3
  • Conversion from 640x360 4:4:4 RGB -> 640x360 4:4:4 YCbCr.
  • Y & CbCr channels doubled to 1280x720 4:4:4 YCbCr with NNEDI3
  • Y channel only doubled to 2560x1440

Is it then:
  • CbCr channels upscaled 1280x720->1920x1080 with 'image upscaling' setting
  • Y channel downscaled 2560x1440->1920x1080 with 'image downscaling' setting
  • Conversion from 4:4:4 YCbCr to RGB

Or is it:
  • CbCr channels upscaled 1280x720->2560x1440 with 'image upscaling' setting
  • Conversion from 4:4:4 YCbCr to RGB
  • 2560x1440 RGB -> 1920x1080 RGB with 'image downscaling' setting

Last edited by cyberbeing; 28th January 2014 at 00:57.
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Old 28th January 2014, 01:00   #22100  |  Link
Werewolfy
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For what it's worth, 3-tap is generally considered the best for image quality. (though some argue for 4-tap Lanczos over 3-tap)
I don't use Jinc 8 usually, it was just to test if madVR upscales or downscales or both after NNEDI3 doubles the resolution on this particular scenario. I use Jinc 4 because it's a little bit sharper without introducing more ringing (to my eyes) but I agree, the difference is negligible. With the new NNEDI3 I will probably use Jinc 3 or a cheaper algorithm.

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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
It's only scaling in one dimension if you select 2x.

1920/720 = 2.67x
1080/576 = 1.88x
Thanks, I think I understand.

Last edited by Werewolfy; 28th January 2014 at 01:02.
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