Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > (HD) DVD, Blu-ray & (S)VCD > (HD) DVD & Blu-ray authoring

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th May 2016, 11:21   #981  |  Link
r0lZ
PgcEdit daemon
 
r0lZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
Yes but I would like to skip some steps
I don't think it's possible currently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
I would like to try to make MKV AVC+MVC and it seems the only way to do that is to combine AVC+MVC into a single H264 elementary stream...
Well, it's what MakeMKV tries to promote. But IMO, adding the AVC and MVC streams as two different elementary streams in a MKV container is probably a better option, much easier to implement. However, currently, it's not possible. The MKV standard does not accept the MVC stream. It's probably why MakeMKV has developed its combined format, recognised by MkvMerge as a single 2D AVC stream (but unfortunately also by almost all players).

Anyway, since the combined AVC+MVC stream is only supported by stereoscopic player so far (or by complex combinations of filters), I think that all that techniques are very limited, and will probably be usable only with some very rare software players at best. I don't think they are really interesting, except perhaps for backup purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
Also I would like to try dual stream (1 full stream for left eye and 1 for right eye) but I don't know if it's possible, even if some camcorders support that.
You can add two AVC streams in a MKV without problem, but that would require to re-encode at least the MVC stream. And indeed, I don't think it is possible to play that dual-AVC MKVs in 3D with any player so far.

Currently, the only widely supported 3D formats in full resolution are Full-SBS, Full-T&B and Frame Alternate. They require to re-encode the video, but at least, you can play them almost everywhere (if your hardware supports the required level). It's why BD3D2MK3D can produce them. I don't think it is a good idea to try other formats requiring to re-encode the video. The quality is not better, and the compatibility is and will probably always be terrible.
__________________
r0lZ
PgcEdit homepage (hosted by VideoHelp)
BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV
r0lZ is offline  
Old 14th May 2016, 11:50   #982  |  Link
Sharc
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,754
As far as I understand the Blu-ray standard accepts both the the ssif structure (base AVC and dependent MVC in 2 separate .m2ts files) and the interleaved format (base AVC and dependent MVC in the same .m2ts file combined/interleaved). This means that any player which claims to be Blu-ray compliant must accept both formats.
(MKV is a different story however as you mention).
Sharc is offline  
Old 14th May 2016, 11:57   #983  |  Link
Nico8583
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 761
Mastroska supports TrackOperation to combine AVC and MVC track : https://www.matroska.org/technical/s...TrackOperation
But I don't know how to use it. I think it's used by MakeMKV in order to create MK3D but perhaps I'm wrong.
Nico8583 is offline  
Old 14th May 2016, 13:00   #984  |  Link
Sharc
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,754
I see, thanks. Obviously mkvmerge does not yet support the muxing of base (AVC) and dependent (MVC) streams. The matroska page also says:
The 3D support is still in infancy and may evolve to support more features.
So we need to be a bit patient, I think .....

Edit:
You could use DGMVCCombine.exe to create a single interleaved (frame alternate) stream of an AVC and dependent MVC source, then mux to mkv with mkvmerge with the stereoscopic flag set accordingly. It plays 3D in bino player, but not in stereoscopic player ......

Last edited by Sharc; 14th May 2016 at 14:43.
Sharc is offline  
Old 14th May 2016, 15:41   #985  |  Link
Nico8583
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 761
Thank you for DGMVCCombine.exe, I will look at it.
You can play MKV from MakeMKV in Stereoscopic Player ? If yes, MakeMKV may use this function from Matroska so it is functional
Nico8583 is offline  
Old 15th May 2016, 00:11   #986  |  Link
Nico8583
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 761
I've tried many files and only Half-SBS / Half-TB are well supported by my TV and my RPi. AVC/MVC combined in a M2TS is supported by my TV without problem.
3D from MakeMKV files are not supported by my TV and my RPi, the movie is displayed only in 2D. Same issue for DGMVCCombine into MKV container...
Nico8583 is offline  
Old 15th May 2016, 11:12   #987  |  Link
Sharc
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,754
^^^
That's pretty much how it is. As soon we move outside of released industry standards things may or may not work.
Sharc is offline  
Old 15th May 2016, 20:40   #988  |  Link
sambal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 8
It's very good possible this question has been asked before, but I don't feel like reading 50 pages right now

Many 3D-movies don't have any 3D-plane, so the subtitles are 'flat'. In those cases I give them a fixed depth of 8. Of course I only find out about not having any planes after ripping de BD, so I have to create those 3D-subtitles afterwards. Unfortunately all versions after 0.71 lack the option to convert subtitles to a fixed depth, so I must use that older version.
Is there a particular reason for not supporting this option anymore?

Last edited by sambal; 15th May 2016 at 21:53.
sambal is offline  
Old 16th May 2016, 08:38   #989  |  Link
r0lZ
PgcEdit daemon
 
r0lZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,385
You can convert the subtitles to 3D with a fixed depth with the current version. Just leave the 3D-Plane field empty, and fill your desired depth (8 in your case) in the "Additional depth" field. You'll get a warning about the flat subtitles. Just accept it.

(You can also leave the 3D-Plane field blank to use the depth tags already present in the input XML, if the XML has already been created with BD3D2MK3D and a 3D-Plane. That allows you to manually edit some depth values if you wish. Note that the Additional depth is never stored in the XML. It is taken into account only when the conversion occurs.)

I have removed the old "fixed depth" conversion because it used obsolete tools, and since it is possible to do the same thing with the new conversion function, it was useless. Its only advantage was the possibility to process several subtitle files in batch. But is it really necessary?

[EDIT] I have slightly modified the labels and help dialogs of the subtitle conversion tool to make it more obvious that the tool can be used without 3D-Plane to convert subtitles to fixed depth 3D.
__________________
r0lZ
PgcEdit homepage (hosted by VideoHelp)
BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV

Last edited by r0lZ; 16th May 2016 at 09:09.
r0lZ is offline  
Old 16th May 2016, 12:28   #990  |  Link
sambal
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 8
That's good to hear, I didn't know that! I'll give it a try next time I encounter such a movie.
Thank you for the quick reply, it is much appreciated.
sambal is offline  
Old 17th May 2016, 17:45   #991  |  Link
sneaker_ger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
Mastroska supports TrackOperation to combine AVC and MVC track : https://www.matroska.org/technical/s...TrackOperation
But I don't know how to use it. I think it's used by MakeMKV in order to create MK3D but perhaps I'm wrong.
I don't think MakeMKV uses Matroska TrackOperation. And I don't think it is even intended for that. TrackOperation is for tracks that are independently decodable which isn't the case for MVC views.
Notice how mkvmerge handles audio: DTS-HD MA is muxed as a single track because it is made of extensions building on a core. Like MVC view relying on a base view.
sneaker_ger is offline  
Old 17th May 2016, 19:45   #992  |  Link
Nico8583
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: France
Posts: 761
I've looked at MakeMKV source code and if I'm right it uses KaxVideoStereoMode to mux stream. KaxVideoStereoMode is a part of libmatroska and again if I'm right it's based on TrackOperation. This is why it was my conclusion about MakeMKV but perhaps I'm wrong, I don't know this specification
Nico8583 is offline  
Old 25th May 2016, 10:02   #993  |  Link
Sharc
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 3,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico8583 View Post
You can play MKV from MakeMKV in Stereoscopic Player ? If yes, MakeMKV may use this function from Matroska so it is functional
Yes, mkv from MakeMKV play correctly in 3D with Stereoscopic Player.

I could also re-encode 3D sources into new 3D using x264 with --frame-packing 5 (1-pass crf), and muxing the encoded .264 with tsMuxer or mkvmerge. 3D playback however works only with Bino, in my case. Stereoscopic Player swapped the views regularly about every half second .
(I tested video only, without audio or subs).

Last edited by Sharc; 25th May 2016 at 10:06.
Sharc is offline  
Old 28th May 2016, 13:54   #994  |  Link
Sxc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
I had been using 0.85 and just updated to 0.89, I just noticed (I'm using x265) that on the y4m [info] line it says

1920x2160 fps 24000/1001 i420p8 sar 1:1

when in my old version it has sar 2:1 - will this matter, my previous files which I play on my LG 4K were stretched across the full width and then I used the 3D button to set it to top and bottom and it looks perfect.

Also, I have been replacing the x265_x64 executable with one that has 10 bit support, which gives a better output (reducing banding significantly), maybe you could either bundle a exe with 8/10/12 bit support and make it selectable in h265 options?

Last edited by Sxc; 28th May 2016 at 14:02.
Sxc is offline  
Old 28th May 2016, 16:24   #995  |  Link
r0lZ
PgcEdit daemon
 
r0lZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,385
Welcome to the Doom9 forums, Sxc!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sxc View Post
I had been using 0.85 and just updated to 0.89, I just noticed (I'm using x265) that on the y4m [info] line it says

1920x2160 fps 24000/1001 i420p8 sar 1:1

when in my old version it has sar 2:1 - will this matter, my previous files which I play on my LG 4K were stretched across the full width and then I used the 3D button to set it to top and bottom and it looks perfect.
The SAR has been changed in v0.86. It is now 1:1 for all frame packing modes (Full and Half SBS and T&B). It seems that it's the best SAR to use with the vast majority of players. It's the conclusion of a long discussion and many tests (starting with this post).

Do you have a problem with the new setting? AFAIK, as soon as you switch to 3D mode (or the TV switches automatically to 3D mode), the SAR should be ignored and the aspect ratio should be correct. At least, it's what happens with my Samsung TV.

If your TV does not display the movie correctly, try to change Settings -> Full-SBS/T&B aspect ratio. And if that doesn't work, you can edit the __ENCODE_3D.cmd script and change the --sar option manually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sxc View Post
Also, I have been replacing the x265_x64 executable with one that has 10 bit support, which gives a better output (reducing banding significantly), maybe you could either bundle a exe with 8/10/12 bit support and make it selectable in h265 options?
I will consider that suggestion. But take in mind that the 10 or 12 color bit modes are not compatible with many hardware players and/or graphic cards. But I agree that reducing the banding artefacts is a good thing if it works for you. Banding remains certainly the most noticeable problem of the videos encoded in h264 or h265.
__________________
r0lZ
PgcEdit homepage (hosted by VideoHelp)
BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV

Last edited by r0lZ; 28th May 2016 at 18:45. Reason: welcome
r0lZ is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 07:58   #996  |  Link
Airmiles
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 31
Will the demise of Slysoft impact your app?

r0lZ,

Haven't been in here for a while now, so hi again to everybody.

Just a brief question: will the demise of slysoft have any impact on your app? I mean, support for new BR-discs will now obviously stop (there goes my life long subscription ). Wouldn't it be helpful to add support for MKVs that contain the MVC track?

Just a question inspired by concern for future use of this fantastic app of yours.
Airmiles is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 08:38   #997  |  Link
r0lZ
PgcEdit daemon
 
r0lZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,385
Well, afaik, AnyDVD HD is not dead. It should be continued by RedFox. (See this.) Anyway, there are other ways to remove the protection from the original BD. You can now open MVC-MKV files created with MakeMKV (currently with some limitations, but the next version of MakeMKV should be better). And there are other BD decrypters around.

The philosophy of BD3D2MK3D is to re-encode the two views as SBS, T&B or Frame-Sequential. I don't think that adding the re-encoding in AVC+MVC is a job for BD3D2MK3D. And MakeMKV does already lossless AVC+MVC MKVs with the original BD files (without re-encoding). Doing the same thing with BD3D2MK3D will be more time consuming, because MkvMerge cannot accept MVC tracks. I will have to combine the MVC with the AVC track first, and that takes a long time and much disc space. However, I have considered to implement lossless remux of AVC+MVC to M2TS. tsMuxeR can mux the AVC and MVC tracks separately to M2TS. There are some limitations (no chapters and no metadata for example), but it's not fundamental. I'm still not sure I'll implement that, because I don't think that many peoples are interested in simply remuxing the original streams to create a huge M2TS file. Also, you can already do it with the tsMuxeR GUI. But I may do it when I'll have some free time, simply because it's easy. All I have to do is generate a cmd file and a meta file for tsMuxeR.

Anyway, BD3D2MK3D will never implement the decrypting operation itself, so merging the AVC+MVC tracks to MKV or M2TS will never be a solution to replace AnyDVD HD.
__________________
r0lZ
PgcEdit homepage (hosted by VideoHelp)
BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV

Last edited by r0lZ; 29th May 2016 at 08:40.
r0lZ is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 09:27   #998  |  Link
Sxc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
Welcome to the Doom9 forums, Sxc!

The SAR has been changed in v0.86. It is now 1:1 for all frame packing modes (Full and Half SBS and T&B). It seems that it's the best SAR to use with the vast majority of players. It's the conclusion of a long discussion and many tests (starting with this post).

Do you have a problem with the new setting? AFAIK, as soon as you switch to 3D mode (or the TV switches automatically to 3D mode), the SAR should be ignored and the aspect ratio should be correct. At least, it's what happens with my Samsung TV.

If your TV does not display the movie correctly, try to change Settings -> Full-SBS/T&B aspect ratio. And if that doesn't work, you can edit the __ENCODE_3D.cmd script and change the --sar option manually.

I will consider that suggestion. But take in mind that the 10 or 12 color bit modes are not compatible with many hardware players and/or graphic cards. But I agree that reducing the banding artefacts is a good thing if it works for you. Banding remains certainly the most noticeable problem of the videos encoded in h264 or h265.
Thanks for the reply - given the settings I use (CRF20, veryslow, main10) I didn't want to wait for a movie complete to find there was an issue, when my current encodes finish I will do a 3D trailer and see how that plays back, I'm only concerned about playback on my LG 4K OLED via Xplay (plex client). If it works fine I'll leave it at 1:1 too.
Sxc is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 10:06   #999  |  Link
r0lZ
PgcEdit daemon
 
r0lZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,385
It should play fine. AFAIK, the SAR is almost always ignored for half SBS or T&B 3D, and when it is not ignored, 1:1 is correct 90% of the times.
__________________
r0lZ
PgcEdit homepage (hosted by VideoHelp)
BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV
r0lZ is offline  
Old 30th May 2016, 10:10   #1000  |  Link
r0lZ
PgcEdit daemon
 
r0lZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sxc View Post
Also, I have been replacing the x265_x64 executable with one that has 10 bit support, which gives a better output (reducing banding significantly), maybe you could either bundle a exe with 8/10/12 bit support and make it selectable in h265 options?
I will consider that suggestion. But take in mind that the 10 or 12 color bit modes are not compatible with many hardware players and/or graphic cards. But I agree that reducing the banding artefacts is a good thing if it works for you. Banding remains certainly the most noticeable problem of the videos encoded in h264 or h265.
Well, I've read some doc on 10bit color depth support and the BD standard and compatibility with avisynth (including this doc), and I'm not sure it is a good idea to implement it. AFAIK, currently, avisynth is still limited to 8-bit (although some filters may use more bits internally), and I wonder if encoding in 10-bit is really interesting if avisynth returns a 8-bit video anyway.

Perhaps it is possible to use various alternative filters within avisynth to output 10 or 12-bit, but honestly, I don't know how, I'm not sure they will be compatible with the filters BD3D2MK3D requires, and again, given the fact that the input BD is encoded in 8-bit (TV range), I don't think that the gain will be major. Note also that most monitors and TVs are 8-bit only, and therefore you can only expect a more or less well dithered 8bit color depth in final, even if the whole processing and encoding processes are made correctly in 10 or 12-bits.

So, unless somebody can explain what I'll have to do to effectively support 10 or 12-bit color depth during the whole process and can show me clearly that there is a big advantage, I will not do it. Sorry.

Anyway, if you really want to encode in 10 or 12-bit, you can replace the x264/x265 exe with the 10/12-bit version, as you know. You can even create several small cmd files to restore the 8-bit version or overwrite it with another version, and call the right batch when necessary, before launching the encoding.
__________________
r0lZ
PgcEdit homepage (hosted by VideoHelp)
BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D blu-rays to SBS, T&B or FS MKV
r0lZ is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.