madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ryrynz]

Originally Posted by huhn

it would be really nice if someone in Japan could bring this up to them.

Shouldn't be hard to find someone to talk to about it and get it sorted. Panasonic support on Facebook? or tweet em? Usually easy enough to find someone on a forum who knows someone who works there.
I like the brand, I'd like to see it improve.. If need be I'll contact the support team here if you provide me with the right info, but chances are you could contact higher up just as easily.

[huhn]

there support is not trained for this. which is not unusual.
the hotline gave me a email and that email said to me.

a PC can't send UHD so you can't use the pure direct mode 4K so there is no issue. please by an panasonic UHD BD player.

so they clearly not trained for this too. and this is as high as i could get. and trust me i tried.

but if you want some info here you go:

model: TX-55CXW704

serial number: ND 5640071

issue:
3:2 judder with pure direct mode.
the TV doesn't add judder if it is not in pure direct mode.

pure direct mode is Panasonic name for "PC mode"

[mclingo]

Just some info for 60hz vs 23hz – MADVR / OLED users -

I use 23 hz to ensure i'm getting matched rates and zero stutter or drops, AMD cards do this really well with zero fuss as we all know.

However with OLED, TVs panning shots can sometimes look pretty bad compared to LCD as LCD blurs the frames slightly on pans and OLED does not. With OLED you can sometimes see jagged edges as bright elements are panned across the screen, some people don’t noticed this, some do, this is a technology issue though, the screen response times on OLEDs are much quicker than LCDs, this is a known quantity.
This initially didn’t bother me but over time I kept noticing it so I decided to have a play with a few tools. I tried MADVR and SVP, both worked well to deal with these issues but I couldn’t get rid of the odd frame stutter now and again, granted it was only maybe 2-3 per movie but this is still unacceptable to me.

It was then I thought I’d try the TV’s own TRUMOTION, I’d been advised by many people not to go near this but I found it worked perfectly as long as I kept it on a low setting. I now have a very clean image with zero stutters and drops. I use position 3 out of 10

A good scene to test this on is Elysium at the beginning. This is a super long panning shot and at one point a very bright earth pans to one about 1:17. You can see the jagged edges on this and the the space station as that pans too, this looks pretty awful with no motion interpolation. With TRUMOTION its 95% free of issues.

This is also why I dont use PC mode on this TV, I use bluray mode as PC mode disables trumotion.

[huhn]

ha the good old rubbish of OLED and perfect motion...
while in theory they can have the best they don't have it in practise the closest is the sony A1E with 60 HZ BFI for really good results you need 120 HZ BFI and the "strobing" is only 50 % which is not amazing at all.

so that leaves the good old eye tracking motion resokution at 300-600p LCD can easily do 2160p.

OLED got only one part correct and that's response time. which maeks them generally better than VA panels without BFI but that's it.

and the screen with the best motion handle is an LCD
http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/m...-bfi-large.jpg
6 bit TN panel AKA the godfather of motion (CRT are better but what ever...)
even the sony OLEd is clearly not up to the task but LG OLEd can't even reach this: http://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/t...-bfi-large.jpg

[ryrynz]

Yeah same situation for me, I use IFC set on low, it's slightly better than without it and I never see any artifacts, medium is too much.. Wish I had more control over it but oh well.

[j82k]

Opinions on motion interpolation seem to differ greatly.

When I got my LG Oled I played around with Truemotion alot, tried pretty much all settings but came to the conclusion that it just causes way to many errors for a enjoyable viewing experience, even at a low setting.

It does a good job with simple panning shots, but whenever the scene is more complex and there is a lot of movement of smaller parts going on it often messes up really badly.

Also LG's truemotion can absolutely not deal with flickering lightning, like if a scene is lit by fire or a torch it causes heavy artifacts over the whole picture. Game of Thrones was unwatchable with it enabled.
Or just 2 people going past each other from different directions pretty much always causes visible artifacts.
As much as I hate the slideshow that 24 fps is, motion interpolation with it's errors is even worse for me, I also tried SVP which isn't much better.

Whats really sad is that the technology for smooth 60 fps content is there, as it's within UHD Bluray specs but nobody is making use of it. The only exception being billy lynn.

[mclingo]

lets not get into an OLED VS LCD flame war please, its subjective, pointless and has been done to death, lets just agree that Micro LED is the way forward , we should all be able to agree on this.

I dont see any artifacts at all and its not just a bit better it loads better on panning shots, I do get artefacts above 3 though so maybe knock it down a notch until they disappear - not sure about later OLED though, mine is first gen and I genuinely have a really crisp clear picture.

NOTE - there have been some firmware related issues with motion on LG OLEDs, mine did have problems at one point but current FIRMWARE is spot on.

[mytbyte]

@mclingo: MicroLED is not the way, it's signage tech brought down into rich man's batcave to replace a projector...they will never be able to bring it down to the PPI required for normal screen sizes...when you disabled all processing, did you do that with Clear LED option (i.e BFI) as well? When you bring the brightness all the way up, is motion any worse?

@huhn: I may be wrong but I don't see how response time that is less than a frame's duration can attribute to motion blur...it's this misconception that led people to conclude that OLEDs should have great motion because they have minimal response time while in reality they still exhibit motion blur because of sample-and-hold technique....that TN panel you linked iz 144 Hz, so 144 fps motion should be pretty good,but how's with 24 or 60 fps? The photo is taken with BFi on, so motion is sharp because of BFI, not because it's repsonse time is 1 ms

[mclingo]

Originally Posted by mytbyte

@mclingo: MicroLED is not the way, it's signage tech brought down into rich man's batcave to replace a projector...they will never be able to bring it down to the PPI required for normal screen sizes...when you disabled all processing, did you do that with Clear LED option (i.e BFI) as well? When you bring the brightness all the way up, is motion any worse?
s

lol, I know someone would disagree, Samsung have claimed they will have a home sized / priced microled TV sometime in the next 1-9 years, yes this maybe vaporware, we'll just have to see, i'm personally confident they'll manage it.

I always have TRUMOTION on manual, i've not experimented with brightness, however I have the same settings on my 3D profile which has brightness set to 100, no motion issues at all, its just as perfect.

However, if you move to "4" with 3D you get 3D artifacts around moving figures in the scene, these completely disappear for me on 3 and below.

[j82k]

@mclingo:
Download this youtube video so you can play it through madvr or whatever and turn truemotion on.
My C6 can't even interpolate the moving square on the left side without artifacts, It basically breaks apart when it hits the edge, even with dejudder set to 1. Same result when playing it directly to the TV through usb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVtoxUohG5E

No artifacts?

[mclingo]

Originally Posted by j82k

@mclingo:
Download this youtube video so you can play it through madvr or whatever and turn truemotion on.
My C6 can't even interpolate the moving square on the left side without artifacts, It basically breaks apart when it hits the edge, even with dejudder set to 1. Same result when playing it directly to the TV through usb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVtoxUohG5E

No artifacts?

is this the same one?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghuz4qpt8v...0test.mp4?dl=0

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by mytbyte

@huhn: [...] that TN panel you linked iz 144 Hz, so 144 fps motion should be pretty good,but how's with 24 or 60 fps? The photo is taken with BFi on, so motion is sharp because of BFI, not because it's repsonse time is 1 ms

Well the photo of the OLED that huhn linked to is also taken with BFI. Nothing would prevent OLED panel manufacturers to use BFI at 144 Hz or even 240, except brightness issues.

Originally Posted by huhn

this is for deinterlancing and i have no clue what suppose to happen with it because toggling has no effect last time i check and i clearly know what telecine.

AFAIK, DXVA's ivtc only works in DXVA Native, and maybe also only with EVR.

[j82k]

Originally Posted by mclingo

is this the same one?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghuz4qpt8v...0test.mp4?dl=0

Yes and in real content I can see the same kind of artifacting which that video produces too.

[mclingo]

Originally Posted by j82k

Yes and in real content I can see the same kind of artifacting which that video produces too.

I've used this to check for judder but I wasnt looking at it very closely for artifacts, i'll have a look when I get home later.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by j82k

@mclingo:
Download this youtube video [...] and turn truemotion on.
My C6 can't even interpolate the moving square on the left side without artifacts, It basically breaks apart when it hits the edge, even with dejudder set to 1.

That's a nice one! I tested it just out of curiosity on my 2013 Panasonic plasma:
- IFC (renamed '24p Smooth Film') at Min: the squares are pretty much OK, but distracting artefacts on the bigger circle, smaller circle fine
- at Medium: the artefacts on the bigger circle strangely become less obvious, but now the squares especially the left one start showing distracting artefacts
- at High, which switches the panel to 60 Hz instead of 96 Hz: the squares and the bigger circle now are pretty much free of distracting artefacts which is impressive, however the smaller circle now produces massive ghosting artefacts! Also this level gives an awful soap opera effect to everything so it's useless for me anyway.
Back to IFC off.

[feelingblue]

Originally Posted by clsid

You need the Intel Media SDK plugin for decoding 3D H.264 MVC video. This plugin will be used by LAV Video decoder.

MadVR handles SBS video as 2D. Your TV should have an option to turn it into 3D.

Tks, problem solved.
Intel Media SDK is necessary to correctly decode 3D video.
Madvr was not the problem, it works perfectly.

[e-t172]

Originally Posted by jasonwc18

I'm going to answer my own question because I got some very helpful information from the developer of DisplayCal that answers all my questions. That discussion can be found here: DisplayCal Forum

A TLDR version is this. If you want to generate a 3D LUT for displaying 4K Blu-Ray content tonemapped with madvr (pretty much all 4K BDs use 10 bit color, BT.2020 colorspace, and HDR10):

1) Create the 3DLUT for the BT.2020 colorspace and a gamma of your choice. Using DCI-P3 will give incorrect results.

2) It doesn't matter if the TV/projector is unable to display the entirety of BT.2020 (which is going to be true of basically all displays at this time). The profiler will figure out the limits of your display and generate a 3D LUT accordingly. Calman allows you to limit saturation sweeps to DCI-P3, but this is only useful for manual calibration and/or validation.

Careful, this really depends on the rendering intent. If you use some kind of perceptual rendering intent for example, you will generate a 3DLUT that tries to preserve all gradients from the source gamut (here BT.2020) when converting to the destination gamut (which is smaller). In other words it will compress, not clip. In the case of BT.2020, which virtually no content make full use of, you really don't want that because it will waste huge swaths of your destination colorspace leaving room for compressed extreme tones from the source colorspace that will virtually never occur in practice. You need to make sure that you're using absolute or relative intent, which will clip instead of compress the out of gamut colors. (Basically it's the difference between "make sure gradients are preserved, even for out of gamut colors" and "make sure the in-gamut colors are reproduced accurately, even if that means losing out of gamut gradients".)

Fortunately, AFAIK relative colorimetric is the default in most tools (and is the suggested choice in the ArgyllCMS video docs for example), so I believe most people are getting this right.

[jasonwc18]

Originally Posted by e-t172

You need to make sure that you're using absolute or relative intent, which will clip instead of compress the out of gamut colors. (Basically it's the difference between "make sure gradients are preserved, even for out of gamut colors" and "make sure the in-gamut colors are reproduced accurately, even if that means losing out of gamut gradients".)

Fortunately, AFAIK relative colorimetric is the default in most tools (and is the suggested choice in the ArgyllCMS video docs for example), so I believe most people are getting this right.

Any idea what Calman uses by default for 3D LUT generation, and if it's wrong, whether it's possible to change this setting?

[mytbyte]

Originally Posted by el Filou

Well the photo of the OLED that huhn linked to is also taken with BFI. Nothing would prevent OLED panel manufacturers to use BFI at 144 Hz or even 240, except brightness issues.

Yes, I somehow missed the link to sony OLED...the difference must be in the implementation of BFI, not response time (OLED is better than TN)...also I am a bit sceptic of the precision of how Rtings take those photos, I've seen them match the camera move with the onscreen moving logo by hand

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by mytbyte

also I am a bit sceptic of the precision of how Rtings take those photos, I've seen them match the camera move with the onscreen moving logo by hand

Wait, seriously, like motorsport photographers do? They should use a fixed high-speed camera and some burst mode.
If that's really the case then that test is of no value whatsoever.