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Old 6th March 2016, 23:26   #36701  |  Link
madshi
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madVR v0.90.15 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: "creating shader file failed" (introduced in v0.90.14)
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Old 7th March 2016, 03:26   #36702  |  Link
Georgel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.90.15 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: "creating shader file failed" (introduced in v0.90.14)
Thanks!

After a short test, seems to be working fine!

I wanted to ask this, is it possible to implement more aggressive edge thinning algorithm?
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Old 7th March 2016, 03:41   #36703  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgel View Post
I wanted to ask this, is it possible to implement more aggressive edge thinning algorithm?
Madshi, I asked about raising the max value for edge thinning earlier, would you mind raising it to 5?
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Old 7th March 2016, 07:36   #36704  |  Link
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Hi guys, madshi,

I really need your help on a specific bug.
But first my specs: GTX 960 4GB, GeForce driver 362.00 (clean instal), MPC-HC x64 1.7.10, LavFilters Nightly 0.67.0-142, madVR 0.90.13, SVP 4 Pro, Philips TV 1080p 60Hz. I don't know at exact which version of madVR the bug started to appear but for sure it was after 0.89, however I've only tested 90.12 and 90.13 for the moment. I have 4 profiles set in madVR: 2160p, 1080p, 720p and SD. For the last 2 I'm using luma doubling with NNEDI3 32 and 64 neurons respectively. When I try to play SD material (720x576 PAL DVDs ripped to mkvs) if MPC-HC is not in full screen or maximized windowed screen than madVR crashes (I can post tonight the crash report). This does not happen when I play 720p or 1080p material, I can squeeze MPC-HC size or drag from its margins in all directions and it still playing smooth. I have repeated the test on another PC, this time an Intel Core I3 NUC with HD4400 and there madVR does not crash no matter what material I play and what is the size of the MPC-HC window. It seems that the bug is strictly related to NVidia and playback of 720x576 material. I have also tested with MPC-HC launched from Kodi and since it's going directly fullscreen there is no issue on both computers. What is annoying however is that even if I select in MPC-HC the option to launch files in full screen it does not do this leading to crash of madVR when I play 720x576 material. Again the bug is non existent if I put manually MPC-HC in fullscreen or in maximized windowed mode. Do you have any suggestion on fixing this?

Kind Regards.

Last edited by ionutm80; 7th March 2016 at 07:54.
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Old 7th March 2016, 09:13   #36705  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playa21 View Post
Hi,
I have a bug with subtiles move feature.
In a movie 2:35, at a certain point of time, the subtiles are moved back to the original position(outside black bars)
My options :
disable scaling if image size changes by only 2 lines
Moved subtiles at bottom.
Detect hard coded black bar
Keep bar visible forever
Crop black bar
Using xvsubfilter

Cheers
Same thing here. madVR v0.90.13.
Whenever I play a video with back bar, the subtitles appear in the balck bar during the 5 first minutes of playback and then return inside the video.
The only option I've checked in zoom control is "Moved subtiles to bottom of the screen" everything else is unchecked.
I'm also using the lastest version of XYSubFilter.
I can't say for sure which version of madVR introduced it but it was introduced recently.
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Old 7th March 2016, 09:30   #36706  |  Link
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Madshi, sorry to bother you, but do you have any plans to improve the 60hz 3:2 pulldown playback? Because after some further testing 58hz is still choppy for me, the only workaround Ive found is using the framerate doubler in the deinterlace options of ffdshow, but I have to also use reclock with forced 24fps, this way I get a perfect 3:2 pulldown playback, the problem is that reclock is not reliable for me and overall this workaround uses to many resources, I might have issues with really high bitrate files.

Thanks!
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Old 7th March 2016, 09:53   #36707  |  Link
playa21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyral View Post
Same thing here. madVR v0.90.13.
Whenever I play a video with back bar, the subtitles appear in the balck bar during the 5 first minutes of playback and then return inside the video.
The only option I've checked in zoom control is "Moved subtiles to bottom of the screen" everything else is unchecked.
I'm also using the lastest version of XYSubFilter.
I can't say for sure which version of madVR introduced it but it was introduced recently.
In 90.10, I have the problem
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Old 7th March 2016, 10:49   #36708  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I'm a bit confused. You say 6 doesn't work for you, but then you say the only way that doesn't give you dropped frames with interlaced DVD is 6. Can you explain?

Are we talking about a totally separate issue here, with interlaced DVD? Or is it the same issue? It seems to be the first time you mentioned interlaced DVD...
When I said 6 doesn't work for me, I'm talking about the issue that the queues don't fill with 4K upscaling in D3D11 exclusive mode (10 bit). I have to use 4 in that case or desactivate 10 bit.

My problems with interlaced DVD (I'm talking about DVD but I think it's related to all interlaced content, it's just that 99% of my interlaced content is DVD) are nothing related to D3D11 exclusive mode or the latest MadVr version, you're right I never mentioned it. I've always found it very hard to avoid dropped frames with deinterlacing activated and "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" unchecked because I can't use high CPU or GPU queue, the queues don't fill completely with deinterlacing activated. The only way I've found so far is to use 23-14-6 queues but even with that combination, I'm not totally confident to avoid dropped frames with some DVD...
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Last edited by Werewolfy; 7th March 2016 at 11:01.
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Old 7th March 2016, 12:21   #36709  |  Link
fedpul
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Hi madshi, the problem with black screens during playback when using NNEDI is not fixed, for me at least. I tried 90.15 last night and got two black screens in 40 minutes.

Settings used:
DX 11 Max Queues
Chroma: NNEDI 32
Luma: Jinc AR
Downscaling: SSIM 2D 100% AR LL
Doubling: (Always) NNEDI 32

System:
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
i5 3570k @ 4.4 GHz
GTX 970 @ 1400/1950
16 GB RAM

Thanks in advance!
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Old 7th March 2016, 12:26   #36710  |  Link
fedpul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolfy View Post
When I said 6 doesn't work for me, I'm talking about the issue that the queues don't fill with 4K upscaling in D3D11 exclusive mode (10 bit). I have to use 4 in that case or desactivate 10 bit.

My problems with interlaced DVD (I'm talking about DVD but I think it's related to all interlaced content, it's just that 99% of my interlaced content is DVD) are nothing related to D3D11 exclusive mode or the latest MadVr version, you're right I never mentioned it. I've always found it very hard to avoid dropped frames with deinterlacing activated and "don't rerender frames when fade in/out is detected" unchecked because I can't use high CPU or GPU queue, the queues don't fill completely with deinterlacing activated. The only way I've found so far is to use 23-14-6 queues but even with that combination, I'm not totally confident to avoid dropped frames with some DVD...
Hi, Werewolfy. I had the same problem. I found a workaround. I use 1080p60 and smooth motion. No dropped frames anymore. Queues don't fill totally but there are no more dropped frames or choppy playback. If you use 1080p24 sometimes cadence is not recognized correctly and that is why you get choppy playback and dropped frames.
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Old 7th March 2016, 12:51   #36711  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Originally Posted by fedpul View Post
Hi, Werewolfy. I had the same problem. I found a workaround. I use 1080p60 and smooth motion. No dropped frames anymore. Queues don't fill totally but there are no more dropped frames or choppy playback. If you use 1080p24 sometimes cadence is not recognized correctly and that is why you get choppy playback and dropped frames.
Hi, thanks for the tip but I don't really like to use smooth motion...
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Old 7th March 2016, 13:52   #36712  |  Link
kabal223
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You are on the same boat as me Werewolfy, smooth motion solves my problem but I dont like the effect for many reasons, one of them is the weird flicker on some scenes and when the credits roll at the end of movies.
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Old 7th March 2016, 14:16   #36713  |  Link
XTrojan
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Does anyone know how Sony TVs can detect 3:2 Pulldown judder and show 24Hz at 60Hz just exactly as if it was played back at 24Hz?

It would be great with some kind of algoritm that could do this.
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Old 7th March 2016, 15:25   #36714  |  Link
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I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings
without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.

Questions:
- Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV is equivalent of 2x SSAA, isn't it?
- Would Titan X be able to handle those settings?
- Would Fury X be able to handle those settings?
- Does SLI and/or Cross-Fire improve madVR rendering performance? Does SLI or Cross-Fire work without problems with madVR / have full support?

- If NO is the answer to all of the above questions, then what kind of a rig would be able to handle the settings I provided settings?
- If NO RIG can handle those settings, then what are alternative settings that would do 2 things:
1. Be able to use 100% Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV without any dropped frames, delayed, and/or presentation glitches
2. Provide better image quality than the quality provided by the same described settings, but with Image Doubling disabled

- What kind of a rig is currently advised for high-quality 4K to 1080p downscaling on 4K TV's, using equivalent settings as the ones I listed earlier? Would it be the currently fastest GTX Titan X / Fury X system or the more future-proof GTX 960 system for HEVC decoding?

Off-topic:
- I asked before and I got somewhat vague answers - I apologize for asking again. Why will HEVC become the standard for 4K content, but won't become the new standard for 1080p content? HEVC still provides either lower file sizes for identical H.264 image settings or better image quality using the same size files as H.264. Decoding is obviously an issue, especially since too few cards support full HEVC hardware decoding, but is that the main reason reason
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Last edited by XMonarchY; 7th March 2016 at 16:55.
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Old 7th March 2016, 15:59   #36715  |  Link
6233638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Ok. Behaviour was the same? Meaning presentation queue simply didn't fill?
Behavior was the same, but I'm getting unexpected results in 0.90.15 now.
I don't know what changed - perhaps the new NVIDIA 362.00 drivers - but I'm now seeing full queues even with the present queue size set to 16, whether the new glitch handling mode is enabled or not.
Which I know is not a very useful report - though it's good news that it seems to be working as intended.
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Old 7th March 2016, 16:11   #36716  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XTrojan View Post
Does anyone know how Sony TVs can detect 3:2 Pulldown judder and show 24Hz at 60Hz just exactly as if it was played back at 24Hz?

It would be great with some kind of algoritm that could do this.
madVR has IVTC that does the same.

but who said that the TV is using 60 hz in this case they most likely use 120 hz.
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Old 7th March 2016, 16:46   #36717  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
madVR has IVTC that does the same.

but who said that the TV is using 60 hz in this case they most likely use 120 hz.
Some TV's produce no judder using 23Hz/24Hz or even 60Hz when playing 23Hz/24Hz content. Other TV's may very much produce judder at both 23Hz/24Hz and even 60Hz when playing 23Hz/24Hz content.

I know the 24Hz modes are usually "fake" because the screen still does 60Hz (...sort of... ...kind of...) when videocard settings are set to 23Hz/24Hz, no flickering occurs. My TV has true 48Hz mode for 23Hz/24Hz films that forces 48Hz mode when TV is set to 23Hz/24Hz in settings. In this mode my TV flickers a little bit (very common for true 48hz mode) on bright/light/white background, but produces no judder what-so-ever and films look particularity smooth in this mode. Flickering is another reason for why 23Hz/24Hz modes are "fake" and are actually using 60Hz, even with videocard settings set to 23Hz/24Hz. True 23Hz/24Hz modes would produce excessive flickering, one much worse than true 48Hz mode produces, and I don't think there are any recent TV's out there that utilize true 23Hz/24Hz mode.

Today, however, manufacturers moved away from true 48Hz mode due to the flickering effect, but introduced true 72Hz and some even developed true 96Hz modes. For example, Samsung PNF8350 Plasma TV comes with true 72Hz (or true 96Hz) mode, BUT in that mode it produces judder during 23Hz/24Hz content playback, unlike in normal 60Hz mode, where no judder is produced during 23/24Hz content playback.

In Summary

"Fake" 23Hz/24Hz Mode:
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

True 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz Mode:
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 23Hz/24Hz in videocard settings + true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

Normal 60Hz Mode:
- 60Hz in videocard settings + normal 60Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = NO JUDDER on some TV's
- 60Hz in videocard settings + normal 60Hz mode + 23Hz/24Hz content = JUDDER on other TV's

All-in-all, neither any refresh rate set in videocard settings nor "fake" 23Hz/24Hz modes or true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz modes determine whether there's judder or no judder during 23Hz/24Hz content playback. AFAIK only specific equipment (cameras) or your own eyes can determine the existence or the absence of judder. It is possible that I am wrong, but that's what my experience tells me.

How can madVR detect if there's judder in "fake" 23Hz/24Hz mode or true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz mode on any specific TV model? It seems (could be completely wrong) madVR is more likely to think that judder happens in all 60Hz modes, but not in "fake" 23Hz/24Hz modes and not in in true 48Hz/72Hz/96Hz modes when refresh rate is set to 23/24Hz in videocard settings. As I've explained earlier, its not necessarily correct because judder can happen in any mode and at any refresh rate during 23Hz/24Hz content playback.
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Last edited by XMonarchY; 7th March 2016 at 17:06.
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Old 7th March 2016, 16:58   #36718  |  Link
Georgel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
I want to use Image Doubling for 1080p films on my 1080p TV using high-end settings (3DLUT, 10bit+, De-Banding, NNEDI3 32n for Image Doubling, NNEDI3 32n for Chroma Upscaling + SuperRes Strength 3, SSIM 2D 100% + AR + LL for Image Downscaling, Jinc + AR for Image Upscaling, SuperRes Strength 3 for Image Refinement, ER Dithering, etc.)

My GTX 980 can't handle such settings
without severe frame dropping, delayed frames, and a ton of presentation glitches. GTX 980 is simply isn't powerful enough for that.

Questions:
- Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV is equivalent of 2x SSAA, isn't it?
- Would Titan X be able to handle those settings?
- Would Fury X be able to handle those settings?
- Does SLI and/or Cross-Fire improve madVR rendering performance? Does SLI or Cross-Fire work without problems with madVR / have full support?

- If NO is the answer to all of the above questions, then what kind of a rig would be able to handle the settings I provided settings?
- If NO RIG can handle those settings, then what are alternative settings that would do 2 things:
1. Be able to use 100% Image Doubling for 1080p content on 1080p TV without any dropped frames, delayed, and/or presentation glitches
2. Provide better image quality than the quality provided by the same described settings, but with Image Doubling disabled

- What kind of a rig is preferred for high-quality 4K to 1080p downscaling, using equivalent settings as the ones I listed earlier? The fastest GTX Titan X / Fury X or the more future-proof GTX 960 for HEVC decoding.

I remember reading that madVR cannot take advantage of SLI setups, so only upgrading to titan or furry remains, or waiting for high end Pascal GPUs which will be coming in a little while. They have been announced for a while, and there are articles everywhere online that they have been already produced and started shipping.

Usage of Image doubling without actually doing image doubling is very costing on GPU.

What you are doing is upscaling to 2Xthe resolution, then applying a downscaling algorithm over. IF your downscaling algorithm is SSIM 2D with AR and linear light, it is normal. Try to use Bicubic with AR. This should smoothen things out for you, but again, better to not use image doubling unless you are actually doing image doubling. You would have more success applying image doubling on 1080 content and upscaling it to 4K because then you would not add a step of downscaling, so it will result in less processing times.
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Old 7th March 2016, 17:18   #36719  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Behavior was the same, but I'm getting unexpected results in 0.90.15 now.
I don't know what changed - perhaps the new NVIDIA 362.00 drivers - but I'm now seeing full queues even with the present queue size set to 16, whether the new glitch handling mode is enabled or not.
Which I know is not a very useful report - though it's good news that it seems to be working as intended.
I need to test that tomorrow, fingers crossed
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Old 7th March 2016, 17:37   #36720  |  Link
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Originally Posted by XMonarchY View Post
...judder...
What are you calling judder?

1) Judder is uneven motion. IE: 3:2 pattern judder from showing 24Hz content at 60Hz.

2) Some people call the low frame rate motion of 24Hz playback (on a display without 3:2 motion issues) "judder" because it's just not smooth like 60Hz playback, but that's not judder.

3) You can't watch 24Hz content as it was shot.
a) Any impulse display technology like Plasma, CRT, or even film projectors can't display 24Hz content at 24Hz due to flicker. They have to do at least 48Hz, generally 72Hz or 96Hz to avoid the perception of flicker. This means each frame is strobed on the screen multiple times which means when your eye is motion tracking an object it will see see the moving objects in the multiple frames in different locations, which can cause a visual effect that some people object to.

b) A 120Hz LCD or OLED can display 24Hz content without 3:2 judder, and without the sequential flashing issue because the pattern is 5:5 and the image is static / not flashing for those 5 identical frames, but then you have sample and hold motion blur issues with eye tracking.

You have to pick your poison. IMHO, both a) and b) are still better than 60Hz 3:2 pattern playback of 24Hz content. Because that suffers from either a) or b) (depending on the display type) and then slathers an additional problem on top. If you're stuck at 60Hz, Smooth Motion is invaluable.
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