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Old 5th January 2016, 21:30   #35001  |  Link
huhn
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depends on the screen setting.
madvr 16-235, GPU 0-255 and madvr 0-255, GPU 16-235 should result in the same output type (limited) which should look the same.

so either the TV settings are changed or the screen act strange with a full range signal which doesn't make a lot of sense.

or in "short" this should count:
Quote:
There are 3 possible HTPC level configurations, when using madVR:

(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255.

This is the most recommended setup because it doesn't (shouldn't) have any banding problems, and still has all video, desktop and games with correct black/white levels. In this case test patterns need to have black at 0,0,0, obviously.

(2) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 16-235. madVR has to be set to 0-255.

This is not recommended, because the GPU stretches the madVR output, probably in 8bit without dithering, so banding could be introduced. However, this is not a big problem for ArgyllCMS. Argyll still needs to create test patterns with black at 0,0,0. The GPU will then stretch the test patterns from 0-255 to 16-235, so the display will get 16,16,16, although Argyll rendered 0,0,0. So the levels are correct.

(3) Display wants 16-235. GPU is set to 0-255. madVR is set to 16-235.

This is the recommended setup for best image quality if your display can't do 0-255. This setup results in banding-free madVR image quality. However, levels for desktop and games will be incorrect, because desktop and games will render black at 0,0,0, while the display expects black at 16,16,16. This is a problem for ArgyllCMS, because Argyll will create test patterns with black at 0,0,0, and the display will also receive these at 0,0,0. So basically Argyll test patterns will have wrong levels, which will screw up the whole calibration.

It is my understanding that Graeme implemented the -E switch specifically for (3), because without the -E switch Argyll test patterns would send wrong levels to the display. Basically the -E switch tells Argyll to render test patterns with black at 16,16,16 and white at 235,235,235, which Argyll never had to do before. When using VMR/EVR, you usually switch your GPU to 0-255 or 16-235. In both cases Argyll can render test patterns with black at 0,0,0, and they will still be sent to the display with the correct levels. However, due to my recommendation to use (3) if your display doesn't support 0-255, Argyll suddenly needs to render test patterns differently. Hence Graeme implemented the -E switch.

So my understanding is that -E should be used only for (3) and in no other situation. If you use the -E switch for (1), Argyll will create test patterns with black at 16,16,16 which would be incorrect!
source: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-di...l#post23274961
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Old 5th January 2016, 21:31   #35002  |  Link
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Nvidia GPUs and drivers are able to properly output a full range [0-255] signal, it's Panasonic plasmas that used to not accept full range signals. I know this first hand, I had a Panasonic plasma myself. More recent models might no longer have this issue though.

So what your friend does is the right thing to do for him. He has to set his output to [16-235] in the GPU because his TV set would ignore the [0-16] and [235-255] range of values were he to send a full range signal [0-255]. This is option (2) in the quote from huhn's post. I do not agree that option (3) in huhn's quoted post is preferable to (2) for two reasons: one is that we don't use TVs to see movies only, but we also want the desktop, images, games and everything else to be displayed properly - and this is not what happens with option (3); and second, because from my experience the [0-255] signal is not properly interpreted by a TV which only expects [16-235] - the gamma or something else is not right, the image in movies does not look quite the same as when you use option (2).


If you have a TV that accepts a full range signal, the best thing to do is to output full range from the GPU [0-255] and configure madVR to do the conversion from 16-235 to [0-255] as intended - that's exactly option (1) from the post quoted above. You need to look into the controls of your TV set to enable it to accept a full range signal though. How to do this varies from brand to brand and model to model. It may involve setting the input as a PC input, or activating some mode (like "Game"), or toggling some "black level" option. On my Sony TV, everything is properly working out of the box with its auto setting, the TV properly recognizes when the GPU sends limited range or full range signals. But if I were to force full range for an input, what I would have to do would be to set Display -> Video Input Settings -> HDMI Dynamic Range to "Full" for that HDMI port.

In the past some TVs were not being able to accept a full range signal at all.

Last edited by KoD; 5th January 2016 at 22:05. Reason: made the link between what I said and the quote in huhn's post
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Old 5th January 2016, 22:10   #35003  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Unfortunately it still doesn't seem to specify how to actually process the HDR data, so experience between TV sets may differ.
This is just the press release, signatories of the UHD Alliance have access to the full specs.
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Old 5th January 2016, 22:12   #35004  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
madvr 16-235, GPU 0-255 and madvr 0-255, GPU 16-235 should result in the same output type (limited) which should look the same
but they arent as you can see in the pictures. his TV only accepts 16-235 via HMDI.
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Old 5th January 2016, 22:52   #35005  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
a question regarding range conversion. what is the recommendation here for a TV, set the graphic card to 0-255 and then let madVR do the conversion to 16-235? someone I know who has a Panasonic plasma TV says that when he does so, forcing the nvidia driver to output 0-255, and then setting 16-235 in madVR will leave whiter than whites (236-255) pass through and make 235, which is supposed to be white, darker. According to him the only way to get proper output with nvidia is to set the gpu to 16-235 and madvr to 0-255.

he made some pictures using the AVSHD calibration disc:

madvr 16-235, GPU 0-255: http://someimage.com/TIY4nz2

madvr 0-255, GPU 16-235: http://someimage.com/uy1kWWj
This problem does not just affect Panasonic plasmas. I have a Samsung and see the same problem. In fact, its always been like this with all tvs I have used with madVR (Samsung, Panasonic and Philips). Its been an issue since forever and was brought up by someone years back.

I have tv set to accept full RGB, NVidia driver to send full range RGB and madVR to send limited range (16-235)... In this setup whiter than white is sent (236-255) but blacker than black is not (0-16). If you however change madVR color range to custom and then select the range (16-255) madVR will then loose the whiter than white and the color range will be correct between 16-235 with the avshd tests. Its not logical but it works.

Raz
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Old 5th January 2016, 23:18   #35006  |  Link
David
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razoola View Post
I have tv set to accept full RGB, NVidia driver to send full range RGB and madVR to send limited range (16-235)... In this setup whiter than white is sent (236-255) but blacker than black is not (0-16). If you however change madVR color range to custom and then select the range (16-255) madVR will then loose the whiter than white and the color range will be correct between 16-235 with the avshd tests. Its not logical but it works.
If you set madvr to sending 16-235 and GPU driver to sending 0-255 then you will be sending 16-235 (16 reference black and 235 reference white, plus BTB&WTW). So your TV have to be set to accept 16-235. Desktop will be wrong levels.
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Old 6th January 2016, 00:42   #35007  |  Link
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Using latest versions of madVR 89.19 and Emby for WMC (Windows 7 Professional). With MPC-HC 1.7.10 after refresh rate switching by madVR (windowed overlay mode) then video hangs and does not play. Video will play after closing then re-starting MPC.

Refresh rate switching when using MPC-HC 1.7.9 works with video playing fine after refresh rate switching.

Has anyone else seen this, better still have a solution for it? I have also posted this in the MPC-HC forum as I suspect it is more of an issue with the latest version of MPC-HC than madVR.
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Old 6th January 2016, 01:47   #35008  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
I actually tried NNEDI3 doubling + Super-XBR quadrupling at one point and it looked fine but I remember I opted to "go all out" with NNEDI3 doubling instead (128 or 256).

So from what I can gather, it would indeed be a good strategy to use a moderate NNEDI3 count for doubling + Super-XBR for quadrupling (to kick in for higher upscales) INSTEAD of allocating all available resources towards maxing NNEDI3 doubling? I mean, I'm having a hard time spotting differences between 64 vs. 256 neurons anyway unless zooming up close.
I thought you were upscaling DVDs? This would be a 2x to 2.25x resize, no?
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Old 6th January 2016, 03:58   #35009  |  Link
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same RGB range question for my old AMD laptop. in the video settings under colour there is the setting dynamic range. the options here are full, limited or leave this option unticked. unticked appears to be the same as full though. not sure if theres really a difference here. I unticked all video & quality options in the AMD settings just to be sure drivers dont mess with the content. so should I leave the dynamic range option as well unticked or set it to full?

madvr: is currently set to display expects PC levels (default).

with my panasonic plasma (VT60) I can choose HDMI range normal (default setting) or full. when I set it to full though then black becomes gray. but according to "(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255." setting it to full range should be right, shouldnt it?

another thing: with my TV theres also an option called HDMI content type from which I can choose Auto (default), graphics, foto or off. which is the recommended setting here when watching movies? auto, graphic and foto look all the same, that setting is a little bit brighter than off.


edit: I need to double check if I really read the RGB level values for my TV in madVR or my laptop screen, not sure any more. will do tomorrow.
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Last edited by Thunderbolt8; 6th January 2016 at 04:01.
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Old 6th January 2016, 05:47   #35010  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
same RGB range question for my old AMD laptop. in the video settings under colour there is the setting dynamic range. the options here are full, limited or leave this option unticked. unticked appears to be the same as full though. not sure if theres really a difference here. I unticked all video & quality options in the AMD settings just to be sure drivers dont mess with the content. so should I leave the dynamic range option as well unticked or set it to full?
these setting shouldn't have na effect on madVR but you can use defaults.

with crimson you should think about using custom.

Quote:
madvr: is currently set to display expects PC levels (default).

with my panasonic plasma (VT60) I can choose HDMI range normal (default setting) or full. when I set it to full though then black becomes gray. but according to "(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255." setting it to full range should be right, shouldnt it?
if your GPU is set to full range RGB yes.

but there are 3 point with levels.
madVR, GPU and TV screen. so make sure your GPU is set to the correct output type too.
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Old 6th January 2016, 08:39   #35011  |  Link
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I have an issue with Madvr + Potplayer + Exclusive mode D3D11 10bit . I'm using Lav Filter 0.67 and CUVID 970GTX

Randomly if I go exclusive mode and back to windowed the frames goes on but repeat themselfs, it's like shaky video that you see the frame before, and madvr ctrl+j shows numbers that goes back and forward fast. I tried many things to fix the issue, it happens in windows 10 . I can't find the reason it happens. I try prerender 3-4-6 and such , nothing helps. Nvidia Control panel set to Prerender 3 for Potplayer. Decoder Queue , Upload Queue, Render queue, present queue, all goes lower .
Normally when it works fine
Decoder 16-16 / 16
upload ueue 12-12 /12
render queue 12-12 /12
present queue 3-4 /4

when it doesn't
14-16
10-12
1-2
1-4 randomly can be 2-4 too

There are 10-15 dropped frames every sec.


Can someone please help me understand the issue ?

EDIT

Changing the Display bit from 10 bit to 8 bit fix the issue .. what can be the problem with the 10 bit ?

EDIT 2 :
I used Potplayer 32 bit taking the settings from old installation every time. So I've installed the 64bit and set it from start. the stuttering doesn't happen but I'm getting Render queue 2-4 /12 present queue 1-3 /3 only in exclusive mode. windowed mode works fine with the right queues .

EDIT 3 :
Ha never mind I forgot that I have set 1 prerender in the NVCP for all programs and I didn't have the potplayer x64 to the list for 3 . so that's why

EDIT 4
What does it mean if I have Async Reader in Grey in the Filters menu where Lav Filters and Madvr are showing ? For some reason Potplayer doesn't show me the Chapters lines on the media player bar with little marks, only if I reinstall and not using my old INI and registry files they appear, anyone know what could it be and if I can restore them after I use my settings ?

EDIT 5

Using Prenderer in NVCP 2 and not 3 fix the issue it seems. should the NVCP Prenderer be lower than the MADVR prerender ?

The async I mean is in the picture including the little Chapters bars , you can see I have only one, there should be more, every movie I have one or none, but madvr does detect them and I can choose them from the madvr try icon, with the time.


Last edited by x7007; 6th January 2016 at 11:43. Reason: 10 bit madvr issue
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Old 6th January 2016, 10:14   #35012  |  Link
Razoola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
If you set madvr to sending 16-235 and GPU driver to sending 0-255 then you will be sending 16-235 (16 reference black and 235 reference white, plus BTB&WTW). So your TV have to be set to accept 16-235. Desktop will be wrong levels.
I get a better picture using full range on my panel. The desktop being wrong is not an issue as I don't use the panel for desktop application. If I use the setting as you suggest there I get a washed out picture.
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Old 6th January 2016, 13:48   #35013  |  Link
Thunderbolt8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
but there are 3 point with levels.
madVR, GPU and TV screen. so make sure your GPU is set to the correct output type too.
how can I do that when its not the setting in madVR and not that one in CCC?

edit: found this here https://pcmonitors.info/articles/cor...-and-amd-gpus/
in that picture there is a "my digital flat panels" tab which I dont have with my drivers (I use laptop drivers from leshcatlabs)
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Last edited by Thunderbolt8; 6th January 2016 at 13:55.
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Old 6th January 2016, 13:50   #35014  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I thought you were upscaling DVDs? This would be a 2x to 2.25x resize, no?
Isn't SD to 1080p a 5x upscale? (PAL has a total pixel resolution of 414720, 1080p has 2073600). 720p to 1080p would be 2.25x?
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Old 6th January 2016, 14:30   #35015  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
Isn't SD to 1080p a 5x upscale? (PAL has a total pixel resolution of 414720, 1080p has 2073600). 720p to 1080p would be 2.25x?
Scale factor relates to the horizontal/vertical dimensions, not the overall pixel count. 1080p -> 4K is a 2x/2x upscale in that sense, and 720p > 1080p is 1.5x
This is generally handled this way because algorithms like NNEDI exactly double the resolution in one dimension per run, so running NNEDI once would double the vertical resolution (and its internally just run twice to double both dimensions).
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Old 6th January 2016, 14:39   #35016  |  Link
iSeries
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Scale factor relates to the horizontal/vertical dimensions, not the overall pixel count. 1080p -> 4K is a 2x/2x upscale in that sense, and 720p > 1080p is 1.5x
This is generally handled this way because algorithms like NNEDI exactly double the resolution in one dimension per run, so running NNEDI once would double the vertical resolution (and its internally just run twice to double both dimensions).
Thanks - although still a little confused lol So 576p to 1080p is only around 1.9x? . I have doubling set to activate for =>1.5x upscales and quadrupling to activate for =>3x upscales. I think these are the defaults? Anyway, I'm pretty sure quadrupling is activated when playing SD with these settings.
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Old 6th January 2016, 15:52   #35017  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
with crimson you should think about using custom.
Unless I missed it, Crimson doesn't allow to set the dynamic range, even when using custom (or tools like RadeonMod, which don't support this in Crimson either).

That's why I went back to Catalyst 14.12, as the only way to get the correct levels with both MadVR and PowerDVD (which I use when I need full BD menus or 3D) was to set the driver to RGB Limited, which isn't recommended for MadVR, as it means the GPU is converting levels after MadVR.

Not an issue if you only use MadVR obviously, as Crimson can be set to RGB Full and MadVR to whatever gives the correct levels on your display.
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Old 6th January 2016, 16:20   #35018  |  Link
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With the latest version (v0.89.19), the matrix of YCgCo video is recognized as BT.709 and results in wrong color.
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Old 6th January 2016, 19:22   #35019  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Unless I missed it, Crimson doesn't allow to set the dynamic range, even when using custom (or tools like RadeonMod, which don't support this in Crimson either).

That's why I went back to Catalyst 14.12, as the only way to get the correct levels with both MadVR and PowerDVD (which I use when I need full BD menus or 3D) was to set the driver to RGB Limited, which isn't recommended for MadVR, as it means the GPU is converting levels after MadVR.

Not an issue if you only use MadVR obviously, as Crimson can be set to RGB Full and MadVR to whatever gives the correct levels on your display.
i have no clue what you are even doing with the dynamic range.
the GPU output can still be changed.
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Old 6th January 2016, 22:09   #35020  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
with my panasonic plasma (VT60) I can choose HDMI range normal (default setting) or full. when I set it to full though then black becomes gray. but according to "(1) Display wants 0-255. GPU and madVR are consequently also both set to 0-255." setting it to full range should be right, shouldnt it?
On my EU ST50 I don't have an option to select full range for HDMI inputs. It only shows for DVI->HDMI.
And if I set 16-235 in madvr and 0-255 output on my nvidia gpu I can see 236-255 passing through. 0-15 don't.
0-255 in madvr and 16-235 on GPU is fine.
From the little information I could gather about this, it seems the full range option for HDMI inputs is only present on US models of these plasmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8 View Post
another thing: with my TV theres also an option called HDMI content type from which I can choose Auto (default), graphics, foto or off. which is the recommended setting here when watching movies? auto, graphic and foto look all the same, that setting is a little bit brighter than off.
HDMI content type just switches the viewing preset on the TV based on what I set in the nvidia driver if the feature is enabled on the TV. I have it in the menu in Setup/ Link Settings /HDMI Content type [AUTO/off].

Setting Games in nvidia driver switches the TV to Game preset.
Movies -> Cinema preset
Full Screen Videos -> True Cinema
Desktop Programs -> True Cinema
Photos -> True Cinema
Auto Select -> True Cinema
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