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Old 7th May 2019, 21:02   #1641  |  Link
sneaker_ger
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Yes, hardware support is disappointing.

IIRC for HEVC the Samsung and LG TVs were the first to have hardware decoding in late 2013/early 2014 after HEVC approval by ITU in April 2013. Now AV1 finalization was in June 2018 and still no hardware in sight, really. Intel probably Tiger Lake Q2 2020 at the earliest. Nvidia with Ampere also 2020? Nothing from Qualcomm.
Looks like they all started working on it pretty late.
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Old 8th May 2019, 16:39   #1642  |  Link
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However, the feature of VP8 hardware decoding was barely seen in commercial products. When does the VP9 finalization happen?
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Old 8th May 2019, 19:02   #1643  |  Link
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Originally Posted by alex1399 View Post
When does the VP9 finalization happen?
What do you mean?
Majority of new devices has VP9 support now.
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Old 8th May 2019, 19:35   #1644  |  Link
benwaggoner
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I'd be less interested in faster playback using GPU in favor of lower power for phones prior to decoder ASIC rollouts, which probably wont be until at least next year.

I think Rockchip's recently announced RK3588 SoC for 2020 has an AV1 decoder, but details were sparse in the announcement.

The thing which concerns me most is the lack of any announcement from Qualcomm in support of AV1, considering their huge market share in Android devices
I've heard indications that the extra transistors required for AV1 decoding are a lot higher than anticipated, and higher than the delta for HEVC. The cost in increased die size is a lot more than the savings from not paying MPEG-LA fees.

That would indicate a trend towards AV1 decode launching in high end chipsets first, and taking longer to get into lower-cost handsets.
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Old 8th May 2019, 19:37   #1645  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
Yes, hardware support is disappointing.

IIRC for HEVC the Samsung and LG TVs were the first to have hardware decoding in late 2013/early 2014 after HEVC approval by ITU in April 2013. Now AV1 finalization was in June 2018 and still no hardware in sight, really. Intel probably Tiger Lake Q2 2020 at the earliest. Nvidia with Ampere also 2020? Nothing from Qualcomm.
Looks like they all started working on it pretty late.
The incremental cost to add AV1 into a CPU would be a lot lower than in a SoC, because a GPU already has so many transistors.

The make or break is how many extra mm^2 the decoder takes.
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Old 9th May 2019, 16:19   #1646  |  Link
marcomsousa
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Originally Posted by sneaker_ger View Post
Yes, hardware support is disappointing.

Now AV1 finalization was in June 2018 and still no hardware in sight, really. Intel probably Tiger Lake Q2 2020 at the earliest. Nvidia with Ampere also 2020? Nothing from Qualcomm.
Looks like they all started working on it pretty late.
What? HW support in less that one year? no way...

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Originally Posted by marcomsousa View Post
1st August 2018, 11:02
(...)

About the AV1 roadmap
We just complete phase 1.
In 1 year we complete phase 2.
In 2 to 3 years we complete phase 3.
In 4 to 5 years we complete phase 4.

So, now we are in phase 2. We need to wait 1 or 2 more years to have HW support. So we are in schedule.

* Next year we will starting see some high end CPU/GPU with AV1 HW decode support.
* In 2021 HW decode for low end CPU/GPU and encode for high end CPU/GPU. (some TVs, consoles)
* And in 2022 for all cpu/gpu. (All modern TVs, consoles)

Note: The first HW with encoding support will have bad quality comparing with software. They have to mature over the years.

And if you are asking, all the nextgen consoles that will release next year will not have AV1 HW decode support (because they release with a cpu of this year).
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Last edited by marcomsousa; 9th May 2019 at 16:24.
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Old 9th May 2019, 16:57   #1647  |  Link
EwoutH
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I've heard indications that the extra transistors required for AV1 decoding are a lot higher than anticipated, and higher than the delta for HEVC.
Hmm, this is quite strange. From what I've heard hardware vendors had a large say at the table with AV1 design, with the purpose of minimizing the complexity of encoding and decoding hardware. Do you know which functions or aspects of the fixed function hardware takes more die size than expected?

Also some two detail from Google Stadia: At launch they will use VP9 hardware encoding and somewhere in the future they will switch to AV1, but only when hardware encoding is available.15:19 for VP9, 22:53 for AV1, 31:45 for hardware video encoders.
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Old 10th May 2019, 07:33   #1648  |  Link
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Allegro DVT announces AL-E210 Encoder IP with AV1 Profile 0 support

https://www.reddit.com/r/AV1/comment...r_ip_with_av1/
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Allegro DVT released the first AV1 hardware encoder IP publicly known. The AL-E210 succeeds the AL-E200 with the main addition being support for the AV1 codec. It supports Profile 0, meaning 4:2:0 chroma subsampling with 8 and 10 bit color depth.

It claims support real-time encoding up to 4K, but with multiple cores up to 8K or (/ and?) 120fps. With the AL-E200 one core could encode 4K at 30fps, so with multiple cores this could be higher
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Old 10th May 2019, 10:37   #1649  |  Link
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Originally Posted by benwaggoner View Post
I've heard indications that the extra transistors required for AV1 decoding are a lot higher than anticipated, and higher than the delta for HEVC. The cost in increased die size is a lot more than the savings from not paying MPEG-LA fees.
now I'm wondering, whether PVQ from the daala folks would've made it smaller ^^
IIRC PVQ was less complex so easier to realize by hw, but was decided against, because of needed additional development time, even though it would've increased efficiency, too.

We'll know when gen2 will be realized (in 5 or 10 years) hehe
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Old 10th May 2019, 10:49   #1650  |  Link
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They can start with AVC, as device support is ubiquitous, and it is an improvement over JPEG and GIF.
That was like 5 years ago hehe (for animated pictures on major sites)
https://blog.embed.ly/what-twitter-i...s-e1b74068cebd
https://rigor.com/blog/optimizing-an...th-html5-video

they do it for reduced memory footprint, pause/play, reduced size, better caching, hw decoding, partial decoding, fast first playthrough, higher possible bit depth for animations etc.

EDIT:
for regular pictures it needs to be an image format people can download and share
https://www.cnet.com/news/facebook-t...-users-squawk/

hevc in ISOBMFF (heic/heif) might turn out a good solution if windows users don't need to add support manually through the microsoft store and android switches to it.
then whatsapp could switch to it as well (with transcoding back to jpeg for older devices)

EDIT2:
at least Firefox finally added WEBp support (including animations) so it counts as an alternative (especially when they update their internal codec again)
https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/01/fi...r-new-tooling/

Last edited by Djfe; 10th May 2019 at 10:55.
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Old 10th May 2019, 15:49   #1651  |  Link
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now I'm wondering, whether PVQ from the daala folks would've made it smaller ^^
IIRC PVQ was less complex so easier to realize by hw, but was decided against, because of needed additional development time, even though it would've increased efficiency, too.

We'll know when gen2 will be realized (in 5 or 10 years) hehe
PVQ is smaller purely in the frequency domain, where Daala tried to keep everything. But it couldn't stay in the frequency domain with the current state of the art, so it ended up being both less efficient after everything was combined and optimised. Of course, Monty is constantly throwing new things at the wall to see what sticks, so maybe AV2 will change that.
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Old 14th May 2019, 22:46   #1652  |  Link
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AV1 is now quickly becoming mainstream, is it time for an separate Sub-Forum for AV1 (or AOM codecs in general)? I would love separate threads for aom, dav1d, rav1e, svt-av1, hardware acceleration and applications that support AV1.
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Old 15th May 2019, 05:13   #1653  |  Link
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AV1 is now quickly becoming mainstream, is it time for an separate Sub-Forum for AV1 (or AOM codecs in general)? I would love separate threads for aom, dav1d, rav1e, svt-av1, hardware acceleration and applications that support AV1.
My vote is it's too early for that. It's nice reading about the encoder and decoder stuff in one place for now. Or put another way .. at what average messages/day rate should it split Maybe 25? Where well short of that now.
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Old 15th May 2019, 11:28   #1654  |  Link
EwoutH
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I think the number of messages per day is now also limited because small things don't seem important enough for a combined thread. With split threads I would report way more often about small changes in dav1d performance, SVT-AV1's troubles with Open Source and rav1e and aom related news. Now it just doesn't seem important enough to report on in a general thread.

For example:
  • Henrik Gramner just made some really interesting optimizations to dav1d's msac function in MR696 and MR697, resulting in about 1.5% faster performance on all x86-64 platforms. Martin Storsjö (wbs) is working on adding the same improvements with NEON for Arm64.
  • dav1d just got a logo
  • For benchmarking purposed, dav1d now can be run at fixed frame rates
  • SVT-AV1 just reduced memory usage by 30 to 70 percent
  • Someone is working on a decoder in SVT-AV1
  • Some effort is made to get SVT-AV1's development process more transparant and compliant with open source practices in this issue
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Old 15th May 2019, 15:58   #1655  |  Link
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A thought I had, was to make splitting up the general thread easier, you could just take everything pre-bitstream freeze and label it as such.
Thats got to be a serious portion of the thread, and mostly about AV1 development?

Last edited by soresu; 15th May 2019 at 16:04.
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Old 15th May 2019, 23:31   #1656  |  Link
benwaggoner
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Originally Posted by EwoutH View Post
AV1 is now quickly becoming mainstream, is it time for an separate Sub-Forum for AV1 (or AOM codecs in general)? I would love separate threads for aom, dav1d, rav1e, svt-av1, hardware acceleration and applications that support AV1.
Certainly tools and infrastructure are getting improved and deployed. But who actually has live content in AV1 other than YouTube?
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Old 16th May 2019, 13:11   #1657  |  Link
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But who actually has live content in AV1 other than YouTube?

Facebook appear to have it all hooked up to deploy AV1 since about a year ago, but whether they actually use it for anything other than testing yet I don't know.

Anyone use Facebook to watch popular videos? Do they have a "stats for nerds" equivalent?
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Old 16th May 2019, 14:21   #1658  |  Link
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Facebook appear to have it all hooked up to deploy AV1 since about a year ago, but whether they actually use it for anything other than testing yet I don't know.

Anyone use Facebook to watch popular videos? Do they have a "stats for nerds" equivalent?
The likelihood is close to Zero. Although that is just a pure guess.

The latest report from Facebook shows 92% of its users are on Mobile Apps. That is up from 90% YoY and trending towards 100%. I doubt they would want to push AV1 for the sake of saving bandwidth ( even less than a rounding error for Facebook ) at the expense of user battery. ( Which will lower user engagement time, and lower ads revenue, everything Facebook is valued of )
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Old 19th May 2019, 19:25   #1659  |  Link
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SVT-AV1 v0.5.0

SVT-AV1 v0.5.0 just got tagged!

Windows build
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Old 20th May 2019, 13:31   #1660  |  Link
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Amphion announced the CS8142 (PDF), the first AV1 hardware decoder!

SVT-AV1 just opened a huge PR with unit tests: #260. They also have a lot of development branches open, including one with a lot of AVX2 and AVX512 optimizations.
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