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Old 23rd August 2013, 15:02   #19921  |  Link
Selur
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@THX-UltraII: wrong language,...
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Old 23rd August 2013, 15:09   #19922  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aikibana View Post
I notice something strange, but very subtle and hard to spot while playing HD content.

Everything seems to play buttersmooth, but during specific tiny movements (typically a slow moving object in the distance or background) I notice some stutter, exclusively focussed on that object. it's like the object jumps from one place to the next (but very subtle) and there are some frames missing in between.

But even during these moments, all other motion and all other objects of the image are perfectly portrayed. The statistics also show no frame drops whatsoever.

My best guess: some motion detection algorithm is playing the wrong tricks?

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AMD Radeon 7770
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MPC-HC+Madvr+Lav (hi settings focussed on quality)
Check that your refresh rate playback matches your TVs capabilities. For example if you have set the PC/madVR to 23.976 and your TV only supports 1080p24/1080p60 you will see this type of judder.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 15:59   #19923  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
And also if the display itself only takes 4:2:2 input, wouldn't that make sense to convert chroma in mVR to 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4? I presume that a 4:2:2 display will process an averaging lossy conversion anyway.....most likely from the computer's RGB32 to 4:2:2 YCbCr and then back to RGB
PCs cannot really output native YCbCr 4:2:2, internally there is always a RGB step, and even if you tell your GPU to output YCbCr, it would convert it from RGB.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 16:41   #19924  |  Link
bugmen0t
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While trying to reproduce a madVR bug I switched between LAV decoders and found the following behaviour I don't understand:

With DXVA (both native and copy-back) the madVR OSD shows much higher rendering stats then with software or CUVID decoding.

I thought DXVA is lighter on the GPU than CUVID. Or do I misinterpret the meaning of rendering stats: I know it doesn't show the GPU load but I thought less decoding work for the GPU should decrease the timings? Can someone please explain this phenomena to me? Thanks.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 17:39   #19925  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
PCs cannot really output native YCbCr 4:2:2, internally there is always a RGB step, and even if you tell your GPU to output YCbCr, it would convert it from RGB.
Yep, got that but maybe the downconversion in the display from the computer's RGB32 to YCbCr 4:2:2 would be somehow "better"/smoother if mVR didn't interpolate 4:2:0 chroma to 4:4:4 when in the end it'll be converted to 4:2:2 anyway? Just a speculation and I do realize that successive RGB/YCbCr conversion are extremely harmful so I guess it might very well not matter at all

And I guess the ability to change the dithering "pattern" would also be welcome because we are basically adding noise on purpose and it's tempering with/amplified by the successive lossy RGB32>YCbCr 4:2:2>RGB conversions. But yeah, I do realize that PS cannot do more than random dithering. Floyd–Steinberg and/or dithering "size" settings would be amazing someday

Last edited by leeperry; 23rd August 2013 at 18:15.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 17:41   #19926  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THX-UltraII View Post
And this also works in Exclusive Mode?
Yes, even MPC-HC/VLC Remote (android app) supports this functionality
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Old 23rd August 2013, 18:32   #19927  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
With DXVA (both native and copy-back) the madVR OSD shows much higher rendering stats then with software or CUVID decoding.
CUVID is switching the gpu to the highest power state. DXVA does not.
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Old 23rd August 2013, 19:14   #19928  |  Link
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Originally Posted by MokrySedeS View Post
CUVID is switching the gpu to the highest power state. DXVA does not.
But software decoding behaves the same as CUVID (just by accident?) and the former doesn't switch to highest power state, right?
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Old 23rd August 2013, 19:17   #19929  |  Link
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Well, how about you test it with monitoring software? On ATI it seems to work similar: it goes into power saving mode when using DXVA decoding, apparently ATI seems to assume that video decoding = don't need much power. It does not detect that if you use software decoding, because it does not really know the difference between madVR and a video game. It's just another software making use of the GPU.
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Old 24th August 2013, 02:45   #19930  |  Link
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Originally Posted by bugmen0t View Post
But software decoding behaves the same as CUVID (just by accident?) and the former doesn't switch to highest power state, right?
software can use the highest power state. some gpu limiting them self to medium power state when dxva is used like an 6770 so rendering times can be higher with dxva
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Old 25th August 2013, 13:44   #19931  |  Link
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OK understood, guys.

Whenever the present queue is set lower than the render queue so the former cannot hold all rendered frames (or rendered + blended ones with FRC used) the rendering time increases.
Does this mean the renderer has to wait for the present queue to free up and this waiting time is added to the rendering time?
I thought having the queues filled completely was good but it's faster if the present queue is not by setting the present queue higher than the render queue.
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Old 25th August 2013, 17:32   #19932  |  Link
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Have any of you guys heard about a bug that makes madVR produce artifacts or something? Especially in few occasions where you're using either 59 or 60 Hz.
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Old 25th August 2013, 18:56   #19933  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Niyawa View Post
Have any of you guys heard about a bug that makes madVR produce artifacts or something? Especially in few occasions where you're using either 59 or 60 Hz.
Can you vague that up for me?
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Old 25th August 2013, 23:47   #19934  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Q-the-STORM View Post
Can you vague that up for me?
Hahaha, my bad. I was kinda in a hurry there. To be more precise, this is what I'm talking about.



At first I thought it could be either a bad configuration setup or a corrupted file, but the guy who reported the issues told me that when he switches his refresh rate to 59 hz (instead of 60 hz) the issue fixes itself, but appears in other videos. He has yet to tell me which types of videos this happens (like their fps and whatnot) but I want to hear everyone's opinions, as this might be something that has already happened around here.
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Old 26th August 2013, 12:34   #19935  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
Talking about BFI
Adding a bit about BFI as it's really exciting to play around with all those BFI/mVR FRC goodies and now that that the BFI new toy syndrom has worn out, here are my real-world conclusions:

-24p@24Hz: interframe jitter is excellent but the 24p judder is really hiccupy, especially on slow pans. Also, flickering is fairly annoying on flat bright objects(a long shot from 100Hz CRT, though ^^)

-24p@24Hz + BFI: hardly anymore backlight flickering and the synced BFI hides motion blur amazingly well. The flip side of the coin is that it acts as a motion-based EE and the picture looks really "colored" for lack of a better word. The subjective pop effect is highly increased but it doesn't look natural, it really has a "digital" flat-screen look.....my brain is not tricked into believing that it's watching through a window(the original intent of HD video). I can literally "feel" the syncopated shutter of the BFI and that really gives a "digital" unnatural look. 24p judder is still there and it's painful.

-24p@60Hz + mVR FRC: Ah, goodness! This time the motion blur doesn't hide/cheat anymore, it strives to make things look a hell lot smoother. Pop effect is astounding, 24p judder is history and it literally makes me feel like I'm watching through a window, too good to be true

OTOH, once BFI is disabled the darn backlight flicker becomes very annoying

-24p@60Hz + mVR FRC + BFI: the BFI synced shutter kills mVR's FRC: it's nowhere near as smooth looking anymore and motion blur still looks unnatural. They do fight each other to my eyes.

I should state that I'm colorblind and left-handed(we supposedly see faster but righties would hear faster) so YMMV

I think 120Hz synced strobing à la nvidia is an excellent idea(too bad it only works on TN panels) but BFI on its own doesn't look natural at all once you get the hang of it IME....it's great on 50p HD DVB-T though.

All this to say that I think this monitor would be full of win: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CNOIbmUws0

You can compare its inexistent flickering to Sammy TV's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Y9bH-3Qu8

The latter flicker very fast but I can still pick it up and so do cameras....the BenQ supposedly doesn't flicker whatsoever, is said to support up to 72Hz(using minimal blanking custom timings) and IME the higher the refresh rate the smoother mVR's FRC looks.

Also, BenQ is owned by AUO so no panel lottery this time(A-MVA all the way), but of course the backlight bleeding lottery is still there.

I've finally scored a 145€ Asus 660 so I'll order that GW2760HS and will report back

Last edited by leeperry; 26th August 2013 at 12:47.
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Old 26th August 2013, 14:24   #19936  |  Link
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Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
-24p@60Hz + mVR FRC: Ah, goodness! This time the motion blur doesn't hide/cheat anymore, it strives to make things look a hell lot smoother. Pop effect is astounding, 24p judder is history and it literally makes me feel like I'm watching through a window, too good to be true
Why would this look better than 24p@24Hz?
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Old 26th August 2013, 14:31   #19937  |  Link
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his display must be bad at 24 hz doing funny things or so
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Old 26th August 2013, 16:41   #19938  |  Link
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Originally Posted by *Touche* View Post
Why would this look better than 24p@24Hz?
Haha, leeperry is known for having odd/contradicting opinions on things. Don't take it for the heart.

However this is weird indeed, madVR's FRC is supposed to imitate the feeling you get with 24p@24hz. If you find madVR's method to be better then this points out to a problem with your 24hz display.
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Old 26th August 2013, 17:08   #19939  |  Link
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In my experience, if your display only supports <= 60Hz then using FRC exclusively for all content (except 29.97/30/60fps) is simpler and visually indistinguishable from using 24/48Hz. I've tested 24fps on 60Hz with FRC and on 120Hz without FRC at the same time on two identical displays and you simply cannot tell the difference. Even if your nose is touching the monitor while running test patterns or other videos.

It's my observation that FRC does not give a visually indistinguishable result is when the video's framerate is within ~25% of the display's refresh rate. Maybe madshi could provide better insight on this.

Last edited by dansrfe; 26th August 2013 at 17:15.
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Old 26th August 2013, 17:39   #19940  |  Link
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Why would this look better than 24p@24Hz?
Because FRC blends the frames, they're not 1/2/3/4 anymore, they're 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 and so on. madshi made very clear that FRC was simulating an infinite refresh rate and that the higher the better.

All I'm seeing is frame blending I guess and it would appear that SVP also provides a blending mode. FI does create unacceptable artifacts on fast moving objects but I can entirely live with frame blending slight "blurring"(can't really find the right word ^^) as 24p doesn't hiccup anymore

Anyway, as I said I'm colorblind and left-handed and I'm just sharing the results of my real-world experiments....If anything, I kinda have a hard time understanding how nobody else sees what I see tbh

This said, 99% of the world appears to be using PWM flickering LCD monitors that give me instant headaches and eye burns, lol: LED Monitors can cause headaches due to flicker

Compare the very fast flickering videos from my previous post to this nasty sluggishly flickering PWM LCD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKhDS7CHDPk

I also cannot bear plasmas that just flicker like hell to my brain, but again it doesn't just happen to me.

99% of the world would be OK with that DELL monitor but you can read that the guy who posted that youtube video sent it back for a refund due to this major problem. Funnily enough, DELL sent non-PWM samples of that S2440L monitor for review purposes and BenQ is now putting its money on a new line of non-flickering A-MVA monitors, too good to be true²

What I've learned in the audio world is that we all hear differently, the same way we all see differently. The idea is to share experiments results and find ways to improve our own experience, nothing more really and madshi has really saved my day as far as my HTPC is concerned

It would appear that some digital displays use CRT-like tricks when fed 24p so YMMV again, but unprocessed 24p judder is really hard to bear IME on a LCD screen: New Sony HDTV’s with Motionflow Impulse

Last edited by leeperry; 26th August 2013 at 22:05.
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