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Old 21st February 2013, 19:27   #17601  |  Link
shimaflarex
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Smooth motion mode with present several frames in advance doesn't seems to work consistently for me. Sometimes it keeps flickering between the current and past frames, it happens even when video is paused. The OSD also flickers.

Maybe it's the same problem reported when seeking, but for me it also happens when starting playback on fullscreen exclusive mode or switching from overlay to full screen. It seems to get better after a while, but I still get some random flickering.

But yeah, it looks very good when it is working. Thanks madshi!

Edit: Disabling "Use separated device for presentation" seems to fix it.
Edit2: But it does seem to cause random framedrops =/

Last edited by shimaflarex; 21st February 2013 at 19:48.
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Old 21st February 2013, 19:46   #17602  |  Link
Heuer
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Works superbly here - at last I can watch 'House of Cards' without it jumping massively. I also do not have a problem with settings not being saved.

All in all I am delighted. Thanks Madshi.
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Old 21st February 2013, 19:52   #17603  |  Link
madshi
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For those of you who can't change settings:

Please do *not* change the madVR folder permissions. Well, of course you can do that, and it will "fix" the problem, but it's not really the intended solution. I've not had the time yet to check whether I can reproduce the problem, but just in case: Please check "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\madshi\madVR\Settings". The settings should be saved there even if madVR can't save "settings.bin" into the madVR folder. So I'm really confused why changing the settings doesn't work. Writing to the registry to HKEY_CURRENT_USER should always work, even with limited access right accounts! So please check if that registry key and value exists.

Just as an explanation: Win7 and Win8 have a "VirtualStore" folder where they automatically store files if applications try to create a file in a folder they don't have write access to. So basically the madVR "settings.bin" file was written to the VirtualStore by the OS whenever madVR tried to create it in the madVR folder. This was not intended by me, so v0.86.0 now checks whether it can write to its own folder before trying to create "settings.bin". As a result the file is never stored into the VirtualStore, anymore. If madVR can't write to its own folder, "settings.bin" is not written at all. I thought this shouldn't harm because the settings are always also written to the registry - and that should always work.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:05   #17604  |  Link
iSunrise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For those of you who can't change settings:

Please do *not* change the madVR folder permissions. Well, of course you can do that, and it will "fix" the problem, but it's not really the intended solution. I've not had the time yet to check whether I can reproduce the problem, but just in case: Please check "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\madshi\madVR\Settings". The settings should be saved there even if madVR can't save "settings.bin" into the madVR folder. So I'm really confused why changing the settings doesn't work. Writing to the registry to HKEY_CURRENT_USER should always work, even with limited access right accounts! So please check if that registry key and value exists.
...
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation, now it makes sense. I have checked that registry path and for me it only contains these entries:

(Standard)
LastSettingsKey
Settings (shouldnīt this be a subkey? itīs a binary value with "0 0 0 0")
ShowOsd
ShowOsd_

So it seems there is something definitely going wrong if madVR doesnīt correctly write the settings there. Just FYI, I have full access rights to that folder!

EDIT: It looks like madVR doesnīt create a Settings subkey but instead it creates a Settings binary value (see above) and thus madVR cannot store and read-back any values. Should be easy to fix for you!

Last edited by iSunrise; 21st February 2013 at 20:20.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:09   #17605  |  Link
Farfie
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Originally Posted by Farfie View Post
To expand on the corrupted seeking (assuming someone hasn't done this already), with FRC on, after seeking, it seems to flash between the frame you seeked from to the frame you seeked to for a few milliseconds, but only when you have "use a separate device for presentation" enabled. So if I seeked from frame 5 to 1005, it would display 5,1005,5,1005,5,1005 for a few seconds before continuing on as normal (1006,1007...)

Disabling "use separate device for presentation," the previous scenario goes away, but introduces a new problem: tons of framedrops at seemingly random times. The queue that goes to 0 is the backbuffer.

This is all at 60hz (without reclock), and I am of course sticking with the non frame drop method, but these things should still be brought up. Again, not sure if someone has articulated it this clearly, so here I am.

win7 x64
gtx 680 - 314.07 driver

But, looks amazing while it works. I have definitely been looking forward to however you were going to deal with this problem and it exceeded my expectations. God speed on wringing out these little bugs people have
After more tinkering this isn't 100% accurate. With "use a separate devices for presentation" on, I still get dropped frames, but much less often than without. 1 every 10 or 30 seconds it seems, maybe even less or more depending on.. who knows. However, I did stumble on that using the AR filter was making these drops happen a lot more often. Turning the AR filter off (using jinc for both upscaling options) even further reduced the amount of frames dropped (can go many minutes without getting any drops). It seems the only thing all of this has in common is that it's always the backbuffer queue that goes to 0 whenever framedrops happen.

To summarize, it seems I must have the use a separate device for presentation enabled to stop the dropping of a vast amount of frames, and then turning the AR filter off even further reduces the amount of frames dropped to a very very little amount.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:10   #17606  |  Link
mark0077
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
The Hobbit looked totally smooth to me at 48fps. So maybe it would be an option to let SVP only double the movie frame rate to 47.952fps and then let madVR FRC that to 60Hz? Just a thought, though. Your display probably can't sync to 48Hz?

The only question is if FRC is on or off. If it's on, with 59fps@59Hz it will blend every frame, resulting in some lost sharpness. If it's off, things will be just as they are with older madVR versions. Whether FRC is turned on/off depends on your settings and which framerate the upstream filter reports to madVR.
Yes I might try that, either doubling with SVP to ORIGINAL * 2 = 47.95~, or ORIGINAL * 5 / 2 = 59.94~ and then use madVR to help with the slight difference between that and my display. In this case can I clarify that

1) madVR listens to the upstream filter, ie ffdshow outputting 48hz for example?
AND
2) madVR smooth set to "only if there would be motion judder without it..." should help with the slight differences between refresh rate and output rate even if its tiny like 0.06~hz difference? Thanks again.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:28   #17607  |  Link
6233638
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Are you using the old or new FSE path? Do you have the GPU and presentation queues set up high enough? (At least 8, the more the merrier)?

There should be no visible judder/ghosting with 24p@60Hz with FRC on. I'm very sensitive to motion related problems like this and for me with real life content FRC works great with 24p@60Hz. With computer type test patterns I can see some small degradations, but it's still much *MUCH* better than with FRC off. That said, 50fps@60Hz is not as good as 24p@60Hz, for whatever reason...

If this doesn't work well for you I can only imagine that something goes wrong on your PC. Or maybe you're testing with extreme content. Try a normal movie. And maybe try resetting to default settings, just as a test...
I am using the new FSE path, and was set to 8 queues. Even at 16, I'm still seeing the same thing.

The image is somewhat smoother, but still judders, and has noticeable ghosting from the frame blending. It reminds me of the old NTSC > PAL transfers we used to get back in the 90s, but not quite as bad.

I was checking with the Casino Royale Blu-ray, as that is my go-to disc for testing anything, as it includes scenes for just about anything you need to evaluate on a display/video processing.

As I said though, maybe I am just really sensitive to it, or maybe it depends on how good the motion handling of your display is. If your display is already blurring everything with motion, maybe you won't notice the blended frames.

A quick example:
I think I prefer the judder to less judder plus ghosting.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:33   #17608  |  Link
rahzel
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Originally Posted by Plutotype View Post
Yeah, I dont own Panasonic VT30 plasma anymore, but what I remember is:
1. VT30 did flicker A LOT when being set to 23Hz/24Hz. When setting the display to 60Hz, the flickering was not eliminated completely, but it helped a lot.
2. VT30 and also VT50 has also issues with digital false contouring ( panning scenes ) and they are very bad especially on european models when watching at 50hz ( so called 50Hz bug ), but the false contouring is observable also at 24Hz. Also here, setting the panel to 60Hz, reduced the false contouring issue to something more acceptable level.

Maybe someone with ST/GT/VT series of Panasonic plasmas can confirm this and do some testing. I think many owners would then benefit from the madvr smooth motion feature ( excluding the motion artifacts, Panasonic plasmas offered in 2012 the best PQ ).
I have followed the 2012 Panasonic plasma line closely (I'm a long time poster/member at AVS and HDJ). AFAIK, the VT50 fixed the false contouring issues that the VT30 had... 96Hz on the VT50 is virtually problem free. There is some very minor flickering, but most people don't notice it. FRC is nice for ST or GT owners, though, which only have a 48Hz option vs the the 96Hz option on the V series.

When my ST50 receives a 24p signal and my ST50 converts 24p to 60Hz, motion is smooth, but bright panning objects cause a flicker effect (easy way to see it is on scrolling end credits on a black background). Before the FRC option, this is what I used and I lived with the flickering artifacts. It was either that or output 60Hz and have my HTPC convert 24p to 60Hz, but this wasn't as smooth... until now.

Last edited by rahzel; 21st February 2013 at 20:35.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:41   #17609  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Sorry if this has been asked already, but why does smooth motion conversion not work if display is at 60Hz and video has 29.97 or 59.94fps?

But MANY thanks for that new feature, it's really kind of salvation.

Will test if I still experience my frame drop issue with 60fps videos and provide logs if true.

Edit: Issue still exists, here is the debug log:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ikqkbswscavjjay

Last edited by aufkrawall; 21st February 2013 at 20:50.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:51   #17610  |  Link
iSunrise
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Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Sorry if this has been asked already, but why does smooth motion conversion not work if display is at 60Hz and video has 29.97 or 59.94fps?

But MANY thanks for that new feature, it's really kind of salvation.

Will test if I still experience my frame drop issue with 60fps videos and provide logs if true.
Take a look at the smooth motion settings, itīs pretty self-explanatory. You can adjust it for 29.97/59.94fps content.
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Old 21st February 2013, 20:52   #17611  |  Link
rahzel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aufkrawall View Post
Sorry if this has been asked already, but why does smooth motion conversion not work if display is at 60Hz and video has 29.97 or 59.94fps?

But MANY thanks for that new feature, it's really kind of salvation.

Will test if I still experience my frame drop issue with 60fps videos and provide logs if true.
Because 29.97 videos should play smoothly without the smooth motion option... frames will just be doubled to play on a 60Hz display. The smooth motion option is mostly useful for when the frame rate isn't close to or is not an even multiple of the display's refresh rate.
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Old 21st February 2013, 21:06   #17612  |  Link
makakam
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I have vt30e and I've always used 23hz setting (radeon gpu) without getting any flickering or artifacts with madVR.
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Old 21st February 2013, 21:10   #17613  |  Link
aufkrawall
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Originally Posted by rahzel View Post
Because 29.97 videos should play smoothly without the smooth motion option... frames will just be doubled to play on a 60Hz display. The smooth motion option is mostly useful for when the frame rate isn't close to or is not an even multiple of the display's refresh rate.
There's still judder with 59,94fps@60Hz, only the "always" option works.
"only if there would be motion judder without it" should cover it imho.
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Old 21st February 2013, 22:00   #17614  |  Link
n3w813
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
If your display can do native 24p that might be the better option. But then, let your eyes be the final judge on what looks better to you. Have you disabled the first "trade quality for performance" option? Maybe it will reduce the sharpness/clarity loss even more. On my projector I'm hard pressed to see a difference in sharpness with FRC on/off, when playing 24p@60Hz. Since my projector can do 24p natively, though, I'm not planning to use FRC myself on this setup. I'll use it on my computer monitor, though, which can only do 60Hz.
By default, the top 2 options in the "trade quality for performance" are checked. Should I uncheck both?

I use my HTPC for both videos and live tv through WMC. By default, the video card is outputting 24Hz. When I switch to WMC or when I play 60p content, accordingly, the output changes to 60Hz but it causes a blackout for couple of seconds while my AVR and TV resyncs. Kinda annoying. If I can stay at 60Hz output and still get judderless playback of 24p content, then I'm very happy.
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Old 21st February 2013, 22:19   #17615  |  Link
cyberbeing
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Would it be possible to add an option to temporarily disable FRC during seek as well as window->fullscreen, and delay re-enabling by a couple seconds to allow the render queue and vsync readings to stabilize (preferably independent from the existing delay playback options). Something like this seems like it's needed to avoid the temporary FRC instability and severe blurring artifacts in these cases.
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Old 21st February 2013, 22:22   #17616  |  Link
webs0r
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
For those of you who can't change settings:

Please do *not* change the madVR folder permissions. Well, of course you can do that, and it will "fix" the problem, but it's not really the intended solution. I've not had the time yet to check whether I can reproduce the problem, but just in case: Please check "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\madshi\madVR\Settings". The settings should be saved there even if madVR can't save "settings.bin" into the madVR folder. So I'm really confused why changing the settings doesn't work. Writing to the registry to HKEY_CURRENT_USER should always work, even with limited access right accounts! So please check if that registry key and value exists.

Just as an explanation: Win7 and Win8 have a "VirtualStore" folder where they automatically store files if applications try to create a file in a folder they don't have write access to. So basically the madVR "settings.bin" file was written to the VirtualStore by the OS whenever madVR tried to create it in the madVR folder. This was not intended by me, so v0.86.0 now checks whether it can write to its own folder before trying to create "settings.bin". As a result the file is never stored into the VirtualStore, anymore. If madVR can't write to its own folder, "settings.bin" is not written at all. I thought this shouldn't harm because the settings are always also written to the registry - and that should always work.
In the registry the Settings value exists but it has no value (regedit says zero-length binary value).
If I move the settings.bin file out of the madVR folder, the behaviour is the same (won't save settings in the registry, or in settings.bin)
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Old 21st February 2013, 22:27   #17617  |  Link
mark0077
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madshi, nothing new to 0.86.0 but for me, even with delay playback until render queue is full checked, I usually get 1-2 frame drops on playback start, or if I have mpc set to repeat a sequence, after the sequence restarts, I can see the queues drop to 0 and I again will get 1-2 drops. Just thought I would mention it as I had a clip on repeat this evening testing something, and noticed lots and lots of frame drops in the stats, all coming from the each start of the sequence. I'm not sure if madVR waits for all queues to fill up before starting playback or just some?
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Old 21st February 2013, 22:36   #17618  |  Link
Blight
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Madshi, FRC's overhead is enough to make it detrimental on low-end cards (nvidia gt520 for example), is it possible to make FRC smart enough to auto-disable itself (even when enabled in the settings) if it detects GPU loads of 99%?
As you are probably aware, with FRC enabled at 100% GPU load frames appear out of order.

Seeking might also trigger the out of order frame glitch, I'm not sure if it requires 100% GPU load to trigger.

I know you can disable FRC, but there are cases where it's beneficial when automatic, for example:
When you only play video, you GPU can handle the load, but if someone also uses a GPU accelerated browser on the second monitor at the same time, out of order frames appear constantly.
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Old 21st February 2013, 22:48   #17619  |  Link
Brotoles
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I guess this might not be a madVR issue, but let me describe my issue please

I use K-lite Codec Pack for my multimedia needs. I have the latest version installed (9.7.5), and it comes with MPC-HC v1.6.6.6517, LAV Filters v0.55.2-16-gd6e6c1f and madVR v0.85.8

I use the LAV decoder filter for almost all of my video streams, and madVR as the video renderer. I have an nVidia GTX 670 with the latest WHQL drivers (v314.07), and Win7 x64.

When I playbak a DVD using this decoder-renderer combination, no subtitles or subtitle overlays (menu highlights, etc) are displayed. But when I use MPC-HC internal MPEG2 decoder and keep using madVR as the renderer, the subtitles and overlays are displayed just fine.

Now here's my doubt - is this a LAV issue, such as: it doesn't feed the subtitle stream correctly to the madVR renderer; or is it a madVR issue, such as: madVR isn't compatible yet with the way LAV handles subtitle streams?

Thank you all for your attention, and have a great day,

Brotoles
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Old 21st February 2013, 23:05   #17620  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
A quick example:
As madshi already commented on before, screenshots will always look rather bad with blending, you need to compare and judge from moving images, and not from individual screenshots, so these serve no real purpose, but spread FUD, imho.
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