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Old 1st May 2016, 22:40   #37681  |  Link
Stereodude
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PGS subtitles are incompatible with the Direct3D 11 presentation modes?

Edit: Apparently that's not my problem. No idea why I don't have subtitles.

Last edited by Stereodude; 1st May 2016 at 22:53.
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Old 1st May 2016, 23:00   #37682  |  Link
AngelGraves13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
PGS subtitles are incompatible with the Direct3D 11 presentation modes?

Edit: Apparently that's not my problem. No idea why I don't have subtitles.
Check your filters. I use LAV Filters and set it to Forced only.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 12:41   #37683  |  Link
SamuelMaki
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
OK. Desktop accuracy is irrelevant to me as I use the HTPC exclusively for madVR + Kodi (and also foobar2000 but with the TV turned off). So I'll keep using madVR limited, GPU & TV full (assuming "low" black level means full on Samsungs!)
"Low" black level does not mean full range! Or at least that is the case with my LG. So change that to "normal"/"full"/"automatic"/"PC mode"/whatever is the other option. Then just use both madVR and GPU on full range and enjoy worry-free watching.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 15:31   #37684  |  Link
Xaurus
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Hello guys, when looking for the most important GPU performance aspect for madvr, is it Memory Bandwidth, Pixel Fillrate or Texture Fillrate?
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Old 2nd May 2016, 16:45   #37685  |  Link
huhn
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look at gaming performance.

Memory Bandwidth is not that important after you reach over 100 GB/s
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Old 2nd May 2016, 19:19   #37686  |  Link
Georgel
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Originally Posted by Xaurus View Post
Hello guys, when looking for the most important GPU performance aspect for madvr, is it Memory Bandwidth, Pixel Fillrate or Texture Fillrate?
Simple answer is release date and price LOL.

I am GPU oc'er and I have been studying those for a good while. All that actually comes after learning all that was online about GPUs is that their price and release date reveals their potential.

And benchmarks.

It is irrelevant what it might seem from Nvidia technical specifications, a GTX980 is faster than a 970 for both gaming and madVR, and a 980TI is faster than a 980.

madVR seems to scale like games do with a GPU. Only that for madVR, your vRAM is not important, because you will never fill over 2GB, regardless if you are watching 4K, while with games you can go over 4GB even at FHD + 60Hz. Movies are afterall 24fps, or 30 most of times. Very few movies are 50 or 60 fps.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 19:41   #37687  |  Link
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If you use nnedi3, open CL will matter, but both sides are relative close in this gen. 4gb is enough for 4k output if you keep the queue reasonable.3gb is tight if you dual screen or Windows decides it want to keep your vram as hostage for some reason.

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Last edited by baii; 2nd May 2016 at 19:55.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 20:46   #37688  |  Link
aufkrawall
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I switched from a GTX 980 with 1,4Ghz to a R9 390 with 1040Mhz and don't notice any difference in speed in madVR.
What I however notice is that native DXVA2 decoding doesn't kill image quality with AMD (with Nvidia, chroma get's extremely blurry) and that the Radeon doesn't get sometimes stuck in the wrong power state with NNEDI3. With the 980, I sometimes had to restart Windows to make the GPU clock up again.

I think the coming Polaris 10 GPU could have the potential to become the "perfect" madVR card (probably faster than 390X, probably not over 130W power consumption, HEVC 10 bit, price probably very affordable).
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Old 2nd May 2016, 21:48   #37689  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
this is wrong.

YCbCr to limited RGB and full range RGB is creating float point data.

if you have an YCbCr stream with only Y information limited range would create less banding but that is more than unrealistic.

so full range RGB wins because float to 0-255 has less precision loss than float to 16-235. still a very small difference.
Ah you are correct, of course.

However, Y only test patterns are pretty common so it is easy for even casual tests to show an improvement using limited range with dithering disabled.

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Originally Posted by GCRaistlin View Post
I thought the only reason to use limited RGB is that either one's GPU or one's display device doesn't support full RGB?..
I agree, this is only a theoretical issue, not a practical one. I recommend and use full range myself.

Edit: even as a theoretical issue limited range is only better with Y only sources.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 00:11   #37690  |  Link
Warner306
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madVR RGB Output Levels - Limited vs. Full Range

Theoretically, does this make sense?

Quote:
Correct RGB output levels are necessary when passing from PC to TV color spaces.

Note: LAV Video RGB settings are not relevant and will not impact these conversions.

Option 1:

When sending video via HDMI to a TV, the most straightforward color space is set as follows:

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Limited Range RGB 16-235 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

madVR expands the source 16-235 signal to full range RGB leaving the conversion back to 16-235 to the graphics card. Expanding the source prevents the GPU from clipping the image during conversion to 16-235. Desktop levels remain accurate. However, it is possible to introduce banding if the GPU does not use dithering when stretching 0-255 to 16-235. The range is converted twice: by madVR and the GPU.

This may be the only option for graphics cards that do not allow full range RGB (0-255) output over HDMI like many older Intel iGPUs and Nvidia cards. Although, any video driver can be configured to output 0-255 by running madLevelsTweaker.exe in the madVR installation folder.

Option 2:

If your PC is a dedicated HTPC, an alternative approach is possible:

(madVR) TV levels (16-235) -> (Kodi) Use limited color range (16-235) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235

In this configuration, the signal remains 16-235 until it reaches the TV. A GPU set to 0-255 will allow passthrough without clipping the levels output by madVR. Kodi must be configured under System -> Video output to match madVR — using a limited color range for both Kodi and DVDPlayer.

When set to 16-235, madVR will not alter the source levels. This means it is possible to pass 0-15 and 236-255 if the source includes these values. The display will clip to 16-235. Clipping patterns such as these MP4 test patterns should be used to adjust brightness and contrast until bars 16-235 are visible.

This can be the best option for GPUs that output full range to a display that only accepts limited RGB. Banding is unlikely as madVR handles the single range conversion (Y'CbCr to RGB) and the GPU is bypassed. However, the desktop and other applications will output incorrect levels. PC applications render black at 0,0,0 while the display expects 16,16,16. The result is crushed blacks. This sacrifice is made to improve the quality of the video player at the expense of other computing.

Option 3:

A final option involves setting all sources to full range:

(madVR) PC levels (0-255) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 0-255

madVR expands the source to 0-255 and displays it full range on your television. The TV's HDMI black level must be set to display full range RGB (HDMI Normal vs. HDMI Low). When converting Y'CbCr 16-235 to RGB 0-255, madVR will clip 0-15 and 236-255. Clipping below 16 and above 235 is acceptable as long as a correct grayscale is maintained. Use of these MP4 test patterns for black and white clipping should be used to confirm video levels (16-235) are displayed correctly.

This should be the optimal setting for TVs and GPUs with a full range setting. The desktop maintains correct PC levels and banding is unlikely as madVR handles the lone range conversion.

I would recommend trying all three options. In my experience, the result of each setting can vary depending on the GPU and display, and this will not always conform with the theory of the ideal presentation path.

For testing, start with the referenced AVS Forum Calibration Patterns to confirm the output of 16-25 and 230-235, and move on to these videos, which can be used to fine-tune "black 16" and "white 235."

Last edited by Warner306; 5th May 2016 at 22:41.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 07:47   #37691  |  Link
huhn
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there is a tool in the madVR folder that allows full range output on old intel GPUs and older nvidia driver.

madLevelsTweaker.exe
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Old 3rd May 2016, 07:51   #37692  |  Link
James Freeman
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The most accurate (IMO):
(madVR) TV levels (16-235) -> (GPU) Full Range RGB 0-255 -> (TV) Output as RGB 16-235
That way you don't lose BTB and WTW signal and actually the closest setting to a top notch quality blu-ray player.
It also has no range conversions.
But as said, you can't play PC games or play any full range signal from your PC because it will be clipped.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 3rd May 2016 at 08:00.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 08:32   #37693  |  Link
huhn
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chroma has a range of 16-240 not 16-235.

so you are always range converting when RGB is used.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 09:27   #37694  |  Link
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Reading Warner's description, can someone confirm if on Samsung TVs (at least as long as the HDMI input is not deliberately specified as "PC" by the user):

HDMI black level on "Normal" = full range
HDMI black level on "Low" = limited range

(I'm not at my TV at the moment but I remember if the input is named "PC", the black level setting is greyed out and fixed to either one of the options. Not much sense in using "PC" though because many other options are also greyed out then and become unconfigurable.)
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Old 3rd May 2016, 10:00   #37695  |  Link
nevcairiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
It also has no range conversions.
This is a common claim, keep the range "the same", but this is not how it works.
The YUV and RGB ranges are not strictly related. Converting from YUV to RGB changes the values either way, slightly adjusting the coeffecients to adjust their output to 0-255 or 16-235 is not an extra range conversion step, it just targets a different output range. The quality is not higher when you use 16-235.

Even your players UI will be clipped in such a mode, which is imho not acceptable. If your TV support full-range input, and you don't need it to be compatible with other source devices that output 16-235, using 0-255/full range is the better choice, in my opinion.
No matter what people claim, but BTB/WTW are not meant to be visible. A properly calibrated screen should have absolute black as absolute black. There is no room to show any blacker values. Would you sacrifice the black level or the white level of "normal" content to be able to show those? You certainly would not.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 10:38   #37696  |  Link
iSeries
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Seeing as how any TV is going to be converting your RGB signal into YCbCr again for it's own processing (unless in some kind of restricted 'PC' mode) before converting to RGB once more for display, isn't sending full vs limited kinda moot?
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Old 3rd May 2016, 10:41   #37697  |  Link
huhn
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converting full range RGB to high bit deep YCbCr is better than converting limited range RGB to high bit YCbCr.

and nearly every TV theses is at least not sub sampling in some kind of mode.

newer sony TV can do ->everything<- without subsampling and maybe even in RGB.
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Old 3rd May 2016, 11:34   #37698  |  Link
oddball
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Since a few days ago MadVR is not working in FSE mode under Windows 10. I get a blank screen on a secondary or tertiary display. If I right click on XYsubfilter on the system tray the image comes back. If I bounce between FSE on secondary/tertiary a couple of times MPC-HC crashes. If I try skip frames it locks up. It works using Windows overlay or DX11. I tried different (older) versions of MadVR and MPC-HC plus older AMD drivers (default Win10 version).
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Old 3rd May 2016, 11:38   #37699  |  Link
SweetLow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Reading Warner's description, can someone confirm if on Samsung TVs (at least as long as the HDMI input is not deliberately specified as "PC" by the user):

HDMI black level on "Normal" = full range
HDMI black level on "Low" = limited range
Yes, it's true. Very strange names (inversed, i can say).
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Old 3rd May 2016, 12:56   #37700  |  Link
Uoppi
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So what I take from this is there's no consensus on whether
1) limited -> full -> limited ("Option 2" on Warner's list)
is any more optimal than
2) everything full range

(Assuming exclusive HTPC use and disregarding desktop use.)

Anyhow, I guess it's "safe" for me to keep using limited -> full -> limited. I doubt I could detect any difference either way (other than desktop looking off). Naturally I'd like to set it the best way possible and just stop obsessing about it.

Last edited by Uoppi; 3rd May 2016 at 12:59.
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