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Old 26th July 2014, 02:12   #26981  |  Link
Asmodian
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Have you tried "enable windowed overlay" in the rendering options of madVR? It is interesting that only the old renderers work for you.
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Old 26th July 2014, 02:25   #26982  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Have you tried "enable windowed overlay" in the rendering options of madVR? It is interesting that only the old renderers work for you.
When I select overlay mode in madVR I get "Overly mode not supported on this GPU".

Furthermore, when madVR or any other unsupported renderer (EVR/VMR9) is selected then no activity is shown for the 750M in GPU-Z. While the other mentioned renderers utilize the 750M.
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Old 26th July 2014, 02:37   #26983  |  Link
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don't know if it's a bug or something that I missed, I'm using version 0.87.10. I wanted to play my video at its native 24fps, but turning deinterlacing off in madvr's setting doesn't do anything, the video still plays at 60fps.
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Old 26th July 2014, 08:13   #26984  |  Link
Flux
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madVR 0.87.4 + MPCHC (Windows 7 SP1 64-bit)

Chroma upscaling: NNEDI3 (32 neurons)
Image upscaling: Jinc (3 taps) + anti-ringing filter
Smooth motion: enabled
Trade quality for performance: all unticked except "use random dithering instead of OpenCL error diffusion"
Exclusive mode: enabled

AMD R9 280 3GB GPU (940 MHz / 1250 MHz) with Catalyst 13.12 drivers.

I'm playing 1080p24 10-bit videos and rendering times hover around ~ 22 ms with GPU usage ~ 50% (~ 70ms with error diffusion and ~90% GPU usage).

It is normal that I can't use error diffusion with this GPU? There is tons of dropped frames. Rendering times are correct for this GPU?
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Last edited by Flux; 26th July 2014 at 08:15.
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Old 26th July 2014, 08:17   #26985  |  Link
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Upgrade to the latest version of madVR.
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Old 26th July 2014, 08:32   #26986  |  Link
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I thought it was latest. Now I'm using 0.87.10 version.

0.87.4

I'm playing 1080p24 10-bit videos and rendering times hover around ~ 22 ms with GPU usage ~ 50% (~ 70ms with error diffusion and ~90% GPU usage).

0.87.10

I'm playing 1080p24 10-bit videos and rendering times hover around ~ 19 ms with GPU usage ~ 43% (~ 20ms with error diffusion and ~47% GPU usage).

Well, I guess that noticeable difference with error diffusion

Thanks for correcting this simple mistake
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Old 26th July 2014, 09:24   #26987  |  Link
James Freeman
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I am currently experimenting with my Panasonic ST60 plasma and MadVR, contrast ratio is superb (above 10,000:1), and colors are perfect (sub 2 dE with built in CMS).

First, with this particular model the madLevelsTweaker does nothing, but on my other displays it has effect; It appears the the GPU outputs 0-255 no matter what (like PC mode) when it detects this TV,
In RGB or YCbCr444 modes (nVidia card). I also use the "Pixel Direct" to get 4:4:4 Chroma.

To get a band-less picture I have to use the RGB Limited setting on the TV, and output 16-235 from madVR, this clips the OS shades but it does't matter for me.
When using the RGB Full setting & 0-255 with madVR, the TV creates minor banding like its compressing the incoming 0-255 to 16-235 then stretches back to 0-255.
Its' definitely not MadVR or Nvidia that creates the banding, it appears that the TV's processor only accepts 16-235 steps for bandless picture.

All in all, I preserve BTB and WTW using the RGB Limited on the TV & 16-235 with MadVR, and without any banding.
In effect madVR use one less dithering step because the image does not need to be stretch to 0-255, it stays at the native 16-235.

Bottom line is: 0-255 is not always best; it depends on the display device.
I use the Greyscale Ramp from the AVS709HD disc, and engage the "Reduce Banding Artifacts" in madVR for maximum smoothness, then I select the setting on the TV that looks smoothest/bandless.
I suggest you do the same, to know what's the native range the TV processor expects at the input; it may accept 0-255 and show all shades perfectly but create banding as a side effect.

One question remains; Can madTPG use 16-235, or is it locked to 0-255?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 26th July 2014 at 09:32.
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Old 26th July 2014, 09:40   #26988  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSpace View Post
Indeed it is! And although I don't use ffdshow myself, I wonder if it makes sense to select profile rules based on the upstream filter, or at least based on whether or not the upstream filter is ffdshow, since madVR can obviously detect that
It would be possible to add this functionality, but I don't want to do anything just because in theory it sounds useful. Nobody had a practical situation yet where he actually needed it in real life, at least no one reported such a case yet.

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Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
madshi, I've discovered that my iGPU -> 750M problem is resolved when I select "System Default", "VMR 7 (Renderless)", or "Overlay Video Renderer" with "High-performance NVIDIA processor" selected for a renamed mpc-hc.

Strangely, I had only tried EVR and VMR 9 (Renderless) other than madVR and both of the others also gave the same black screen result as madVR. Should I open a bug report for this on the tracker and/or would you need me to provide more information? Thanks.
VRM7, System Default and Overlay Video Renderer all don't use Direct3D9 for rendering, that's why they work and why madVR and EVR don't work. D3D9 is broken on your Windows installation. This is not a bug in madVR, but a problem with your Windows installation. As I mentioned before, try installing D3D9 with the D3D9 web installer. If that doesn't help, you may have to reinstall the whole OS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lansing View Post
don't know if it's a bug or something that I missed, I'm using version 0.87.10. I wanted to play my video at its native 24fps, but turning deinterlacing off in madvr's setting doesn't do anything, the video still plays at 60fps.
What is the native format of that video (resolution, framerate, interlaced/progressive etc)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I am currently experimenting with my Panasonic ST60 plasma and MadVR, contrast ratio is superb (above 10,000:1), and colors are perfect (sub 2 dE with built in CMS).

First, with this particular model the madLevelsTweaker does nothing, but on my other displays it has effect; It appears the the GPU outputs 0-255 no matter what (like PC mode) when it detects this TV,
In RGB or YCbCr444 modes (nVidia card). I also use the "Pixel Direct" to get 4:4:4 Chroma.

To get a band-less picture I have to use the RGB Limited setting on the TV, and output 16-235 from madVR, this clips the OS shades but it does't matter for me.
When using the RGB Full setting & 0-255 with madVR, the TV creates minor banding like its compressing the incoming 0-255 to 16-235 then stretches back to 0-255.
Its' definitely not MadVR or Nvidia that creates the banding, it appears that the TV's processor only accepts 16-235 steps for bandless picture.

All in all, I preserve BTB and WTW using the RGB Limited on the TV & 16-235 with MadVR, and without any banding.
In effect madVR use one less dithering step because the image does not need to be stretch to 0-255, it stays at the native 16-235.

Bottom line is: 0-255 is not always best; it depends on the display device.
I use the Greyscale Ramp from the AVS709HD disc, and engage the "Reduce Banding Artifacts" in madVR for maximum smoothness, then I select the setting on the TV that looks smoothest/bandless.
I suggest you do the same, to know what's the native range the TV processor expects at the input; it may accept 0-255 and show all shades perfectly but create banding as a side effect.
That's very disappointing to hear. It seems that Panasonic has implemented 0-255 support in a very bad way, by stretching it to 16-235 in 8bit. Ouch. Anyway, you're right: Every display behaves differently, so there can only be recommendations what to try first. But in the end everybody should test which setup works best for his particular hardware/display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
One question remains; Can madTPG use 16-235, or is it locked to 0-255?
madTPG uses the same settings you've selected for madVR, which is no wonder since madTPG internally uses madVR for rendering the test patterns.
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Old 26th July 2014, 10:08   #26989  |  Link
James Freeman
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That's very disappointing to hear. It seems that Panasonic has implemented 0-255 support in a very bad way, by stretching it to 16-235 in 8bit.
Found the problem.

When using the "Direct Pixel" for 4:4:4, it disables the internal high-bitdepth processing.
When "direct pixel" is Disabled the Panel chroma is 4:2:2 but the grey ramp is silky smooth 16-235 or 0-255.
Well I guess my previous post meant to say: "Know thy-TV".

I should add that on a plasma the Contrast control is also the Panel Luminance (how bright is the TV), so I can't turn the Contrast up to clip over 235 like in an LCD.
So I prefer to use 0-255 in madVR (now that it's smooth), to clip above 235 so that I will not see unwanted artifacts, but chroma resolution is compromised.


@Madshi,

What do you think:
No Chroma sub-sampling (4:4:4) at 16-235 & BTB+WTW VS 4:2:2 and 0-255 no BTB/WTW.
The first option is what the TV expects and what any player would output, no Luma dithering, 4:4:4.
The second is a PC configuration, has no BTB/WTW, but also dithers the Luma to 0-255 and is 4:2:2 on my TV.

The question is: What will benefit the picture quality: 4:4:4 & no Luma Dithering OR clipped WTW/BTB?
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Last edited by James Freeman; 26th July 2014 at 10:54.
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Old 26th July 2014, 10:30   #26990  |  Link
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That's technically not possible, unfortunately. I can choose the GPU for OpenCL processing, but I can't choose the GPU for Direct3D. Have you tried renaming your media player? Reportedly sometimes that helps to activate the NVidia GPU instead of the Intel one.
Yes, I have renamed the media player as "mpc-hc1".

The very first implementation of error diffusion algorithm that you made was based on OpenCL, but later the implementation was made using directcompute processing. I think it was due to so many issues that arose during that time with OpenCL processing. Now that Open CL processing works properly on most systems, would you consider offering an optional support for error diffusion algorithms with OpenCL processing?
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Old 26th July 2014, 10:33   #26991  |  Link
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The second is a PC configuration, has the benefits of 4:4:4 Chroma, but also another dithering stage in madVR.
There are no multiple dithering stages in madVR. There is always exactly one, at the end of all processing.

(The only exception is when a high-bitdepth source must be fed into DXVA for deinterlacing/scaling. In that case madVR has to dither the source down to 8bit for DXVA.)

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The very first implementation of error diffusion algorithm that you made was based on OpenCL, but later the implementation was made using directcompute processing. I think it was due to so many issues that arose during that time with OpenCL processing. Now that Open CL processing works properly on most systems, would you consider offering an optional support for error diffusion algorithms with OpenCL processing?
It works properly, but is slower (for error diffusion) than DirectCompute, much slower on AMD hardware. Sorry, no plans to do error diffusion via OpenCL.
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Old 26th July 2014, 13:52   #26992  |  Link
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That probably won't help. Playing games works alright on your laptop, using the NVidia GPU? I've no idea what's going on there, to be honest. Probably a driver issue of some sort...
Yeah playing game work fine. [I know it work by checking GPU-Z graph that the games use nvidia gpu] DGDecodeNV doesn't work either, but I don't know whose fault it is.
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Old 26th July 2014, 14:06   #26993  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
as far as i know repeated or dropped frame forced by vsync are not shown in the OSD.
They should be, I think?
i tested it for repeated frames ( 23p source at 25HZ)and they are shown.
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Old 26th July 2014, 14:07   #26994  |  Link
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Found the problem.

When using the "Direct Pixel" for 4:4:4, it disables the internal high-bitdepth processing.
When "direct pixel" is Disabled the Panel chroma is 4:2:2 but the grey ramp is silky smooth 16-235 or 0-255.
Well I guess my previous post meant to say: "Know thy-TV"
read this : http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1303312779.htm
Quote:
Full 4:4:4 reproduction (PC) Yes, with [1080p Pixel Direct] enabled, but [HDMI Content Type] must be set to “Photo” to avoid severe sharpening artefacts
worth a try or not:-)
a plasma with 4:4:4 support. i'm getting very very weak right now.
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Old 26th July 2014, 16:01   #26995  |  Link
James Freeman
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read this : http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/panas...1303312779.htm
worth a try or not:-)
a plasma with 4:4:4 support. i'm getting very very weak right now.
Thanks huhn.

I have tried my PS3 and everything is smooth when viewing the greyscale ramp image on a USB stick with RGB Full mode.
Apparently this banding problem is created when using an Nvidia gpu HDMI in RGB mode & my TV.
Switching to YCbCr444 makes everything smooth again, even with "Direct Pixel" 4:4:4.
Seems like the ST60 doesn't like the RGB Full NVidia has to offer, but with the PS3 it's just fine.

The "HDMI Content Type" is an HDMI 1.4 feature that automatically switches/sets TV functions like Sharpness, Vivid, Color etc...
Read: HDMI Content Type
In the Nvidia control panel its in "adjust desktop color settings" -> "content type reported to the display".
I have disabled this feature straight away on my TV and everything is just right.
Sharpness should be on "0" with this model anyway.

Yes, a good Plasma is great fun.


EDIT:
I found this great article which explains all I needed to know about RGB, YCbCr and Range.
http://www.audioholics.com/home-thea...vels-xvycc-rgb

IMO:
The ideal output to a TV is RGB Full from GPU and Limited 16-255 from madVR and set the TV to RGB Limited, anything else expands/compresses the video content.
For example when YCbCr is selected in Nvidia CP the OS is compressed to 16-235 and along with it madVR output which already expanded the content from 16-235 to 0-255, in effect a double compressing/expansion, WTW/BTB are clipped.
Same goes for RGB limited at the GPU (Default before madLevelsTweaker) which compresses the OS to 16-235 along with anything on screen including madVR output.

The ideal option when using a HTPC is Full RGB from the GPU and Limited from madVR (or any other software player), then select Limited RGB on the TV.
This preserves the BTB and WTW and does not undergo any expansion or compression.
Brightness and Contrast on the TV will have the same effect as though a stand alone player is connected to a TV with its native YCbCr.
When you calibrate your display with these settings they will also be effective for any other YCbCr devices like Set-Top Box or Blu-Ray Player.

In effect YCbCr's range is 16-235, BTB 0-15, WTW 236-255.
So I decide to stick with RGB Limited on the TV and madVR, and RGB Full at the GPU output, to simulate a stand alone player only x1000 better because of madVR.
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Last edited by James Freeman; 26th July 2014 at 18:41.
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Old 26th July 2014, 17:08   #26996  |  Link
lansing
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What is the native format of that video (resolution, framerate, interlaced/progressive etc)?
I've tried on 24fps, 29.97fps, at 720p, 1080p videos, all had the same problem.
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Old 26th July 2014, 22:34   #26997  |  Link
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Is anyone using Intel DXVA2 scaling? I find it looks too sharp/punchy, however the performance is great. Is it known what scaling Intel is using for this? Even Bicubic 75 AR provides an easier image on the eyes.
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Old 26th July 2014, 22:35   #26998  |  Link
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should be ~lanczos 3 ar in 8 bit. atleast in older intel driver
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Old 26th July 2014, 22:39   #26999  |  Link
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Oh, how do you know for sure? Just curious, that's all. I might as well not switch then.
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Old 26th July 2014, 23:08   #27000  |  Link
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Is anyone using Intel DXVA2 scaling? I find it looks too sharp/punchy, however the performance is great. Is it known what scaling Intel is using for this? Even Bicubic 75 AR provides an easier image on the eyes.
Go to Intel HD Graphics Control Panel (or similar-named) and disable (set to application or manual) all image/video enhancement.
Since I don't use iGPU anymore, here's an instruction from Google: https://communities.intel.com/message/240901#240901
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