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Old 24th September 2017, 13:01   #45921  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Please can you remind me your TV model that works in HDR10 RGB 8bits at 4K60p?
LG OLED55C7P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Re Dolby Vision, are you testing with a Dolby Vision source, a Dolby Vision display, and everything in between (AVR, switch, VP, etc) supporting Dolby Vision passthrough? Otherwise, it won't work.
Dolby Vision works properly with 12 bit RGB and the TV displays when it goes into Dolby Vision or HDR10.
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Old 24th September 2017, 13:15   #45922  |  Link
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restore default settings madVR but nothing D3D11 only D3D9
how to get D3D11?
no one can solve the problem?
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Old 24th September 2017, 13:16   #45923  |  Link
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You need to enable "use Direct3D 11 for presentation" and "present a frame for every VSync" in the "madVR\rendering\general settings".
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Old 24th September 2017, 13:22   #45924  |  Link
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in the info screen ctrl + j can i understand when the GPU is at the limit?
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Old 24th September 2017, 13:31   #45925  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dvd1 View Post

it is now active



starting a 1080p disables D3D11 and the 1080p always starts in D3D9
madVR does not keep the D3D11 settings
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Old 24th September 2017, 13:40   #45926  |  Link
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Those screenshots are from complex profile setups. Does the same problem still occur with default settings without any profiles? Which media player are you using? E.g. Kodi's dsplayer may overwrite madVR settings, depending on how you've configured it.

The GPU is at the limit when the average rendering time gets near to the "frame" interval (e.g. 41.71ms for 23.976fps movies).
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Old 24th September 2017, 14:52   #45927  |  Link
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Those screenshots are from complex profile setups. Does the same problem still occur with default settings without any profiles? Which media player are you using? E.g. Kodi's dsplayer may overwrite madVR settings, depending on how you've configured it.
yes, the problem also occurs with default settings and no profile. I use DSPlayer with kodi
The GPU is at the limit when the average rendering time gets near to the "frame" interval (e.g. 41.71ms for 23.976fps movies).
and when i have 50fps?

Last edited by dvd1; 24th September 2017 at 14:55.
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Old 24th September 2017, 14:53   #45928  |  Link
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It will never harm to double check and trust your eyes. And you're right that some (many?) TVs apply their controls in YCbCr, so they might do RGB -> YCbCr -> RGB with RGB input. However, a few arguments why I still think that RGB is *usually* the better choice:

1) Even if the TV internally converts RGB input to YCbCr, there will still not be any more conversions overall. Because if your HTPC outputs YCbCr, madVR will do YCbCr -> RGB. Then the GPU driver will do RGB -> YCbCr. Then the display will do YCbCr -> RGB. That sums up to 3 conversions. If your HTPC outputs RGB, madVR will do YCbCr -> RGB, the GPU driver will do nothing. The display will do RGB -> YCbCr and YCbCr -> RGB. So same number of 3 conversions overall. So making the HTPC output YCbCr will not reduce the overall number of conversions.

2) GPU drivers often do conversions in inferior quality. So it's usually better to avoid anything that requires the GPU drivers to apply any sort of conversion.

3) Even if the GPU driver does a perfect RGB -> YCbCr conversion, the display won't know for sure which matrix was used by the GPU driver for the RGB -> YCbCr output conversion. Ok, at 1080p it's likely to be BT.709. But what happens if you send 4K to the display? With 4K YCbCr input, will the display use BT.709 or BT.2020 matrix to convert the YCbCr input to RGB? And does that match what the GPU driver did? If not, colors will get screwed up. This potential problem can never occur when sending the TV RGB.

4) Even if the GPU driver does a perfect RGB -> YCbCr conversion, it either potentially adds banding artifacts (if no dithering is used), or at least increases the noise floor (if dithering is used). In theory this can also happen inside of the TV, but at least the TV's internal processing doesn't suffer from HDMI bandwidth limitations. E.g. with 4Kp60, if the GPU converts RGB -> YCbCr, either the GPU has to drop chroma to 4:2:2 (loss of chroma resolution), or it has to output 8bit (strong chance of added banding artifacts because the GPU driver probably won't apply dithering in this situation). If we send 8bit RGB to the TV, none of these problems will occur outside of the TV. Of course they could still occur inside of the TV's own processing circuits, but it's somewhat less likely there.

5) There's still a chance the TV might not do RGB -> YCbCr -> RGB, but keep everything in RGB. Some TVs might be able to perform color processing stuff in RGB. And even if they don't, I know for a fact that several (many?) TVs have a special "PC" or "low latency" mode in which all the color processing stuff is disabled, anyway. For some TV models (e.g. my Sony 4K LCD) this is also the only way to get 4:4:4 chroma support.

But as I said above, I'll never disagree with testing all options and trusting your eyes, at least when talking about experienced users like you who know what they need to look for.

Still, my recommendation stays with RGB as the most likely solution for best image quality. See also FAQ in 2nd post of this thread.
Thanks a lot for taking the time to list these, these are far better reasons for outputting RGB than stating that it requires one less conversion than YCbCr. I agree 100% with the above, and with the fact that RGB is the best option most of the time. It is the option I am using myself with my current set-up.

Re 3, I always select the correct calibration manually given the poor HDR implementation in my display, so not an issue here, but I agree that with a display with a good HDR implementation that's another strong point for RGB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
One thing that's confusing me is this: From what you've written now and in the past, I think you're using "passthrough" HDR mode in madVR, and you have "send metadata" disabled? If that's the case, why does the JVC go magenta? I understand that the JVC might go magenta if it switches into HDR mode with 8bit RGB. But it shouldn't switch into HDR mode in the first place, with your madVR config, should it? Or am I missing something?
That's precisely why I was trying to find out, especially as Asmodian confirmed that HDR 4K60p RGB 8bits worked with his nVidia GPU on his display.

I do use HDR passthrough, but the metadata stops with the Vertex so that the display doesn't switch automatically to its own poor HDR implementation. So the metadata is only used so the Vertex can decode and display it, then the Vertex "Disables HDR" i.e. doesn't send any metadata. For the display, it is receiving SDR, not HDR. But I apply my own BT2020/ST2084 implementation (using an ST2084 gamma curve made with Arve's tool and a BT2020 calibration) manually.

I have tested this without anything in the way (direct connection from the GPU to the JVC) and I get exactly the same result, so it's not the AVR/Vertex.

When I say Magenta, you have to understand that it's not a calibration issue. It's as if the only color available was magenta. So I get a black and magenta picture, as you wouyld get a black and white picture. The screen isn't fully magenta, I can still read what is displayed on the desktop or I can watch the video, it's just black&magenta. So not a calibration issue, or a wrong SDR/HDR mode issue. It's just a completely corrupted picture.

It's not MadVR per se, when I send the desktop whith the OS HDR set to "off", all is fine. It just goes magenta if I set the OS HDR option to on, or if MadVR switches to HDR on the fly (as the OS HDR option is usually set to off).

I think that my display is unable to accept that picture format, and when it's sent it goes in that magenta mode.

What I don't understand is why it does that even when the Vertex kills the metadata, because in that case the display should think it's receiving SDR. But when in that mode, disabling HDR in the Vertex has no effect, the screen is magentified anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Works fine on my Sony 55" 4K LCD display, too. Tested with both AMD and Nvidia GPUs. Unfortunately my Sony only says 3840x2160p59, it doesn't report the color format or bitdepth it's receiving, so I can't say for sure if the AMD/Nvidia GPUs are actually outputting RGB or not.
Thanks, I'll add it to the list of displays potentially accepting this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
LG OLED55C7P
Thanks, I'll add it to the list of displays accepting this.

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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Dolby Vision works properly with 12 bit RGB and the TV displays when it goes into Dolby Vision or HDR10.
Sorry, I should have said so, Dolby Vision needs at least 10bits, preferably 12bits because that's one of it's advantages over HDR10. It has a 1080p layer that allows to extend the HDR10 layer from 10bits to 12bits (with UHD Bluray). If streaming, then it needs 10bits I think, as I don't think streaming sends a dual layer or is able to send 12bits.

I wouldn't expect Dolby Vision to work in 8bits, that's probably something that Dolby would forbid as it would cause too much banding for them.
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Old 24th September 2017, 15:26   #45929  |  Link
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Originally Posted by dvd1 View Post
yes, the problem also occurs with default settings and no profile. I use DSPlayer with kodi
Then most probably your DSPlayer/kodi settings are at fault. DSPlayer can be configured to overwrite the madVR settings, or to not touch the madVR settings. It seems to me that currently DSPlayer is configured to overwrite your madVR settings in such a way that D3D11 is always deactivated. I'm not a DSPlayer expert, though. I'd suggest that you ask in the DSPlayer support forum how you can stop DSPlayer from disabling D3D11 for you.

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Originally Posted by dvd1 View Post
and when i have 50fps?
The frame interval is shown in the Ctrl+J OSD. Look for "frame xxxx ms".

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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
It's not MadVR per se, when I send the desktop whith the OS HDR set to "off", all is fine. It just goes magenta if I set the OS HDR option to on, or if MadVR switches to HDR on the fly (as the OS HDR option is usually set to off).

I think that my display is unable to accept that picture format, and when it's sent it goes in that magenta mode.

What I don't understand is why it does that even when the Vertex kills the metadata, because in that case the display should think it's receiving SDR. But when in that mode, disabling HDR in the Vertex has no effect, the screen is magentified anyway.
Have you tried unchecking the "send HDR metadata to the display" option, when you pick "passthrough HDR content to the display" in madVR? Does the JVC still go magenta?
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Old 24th September 2017, 15:28   #45930  |  Link
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madVR v0.92.4 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* fixed: HDR metadata transport didn't always work with AMD GPUs
* fixed: potential crash issue introduced in v0.92.0
* fixed: possible rendering slowdown issue introduced in v0.92.2
* fixed: custom mode warning windows sometimes appeared in background
* added logging to help find why custom mode measurements aren't recorded
* screenshotting now uses NGU High instead of Very High
* screenshotting now has a 5 second timeout instead of 2 seconds
* slightly modified user interface for Nvidia custom mode creation
Do any of you guys still have *NEW* problems that were introduced with v0.92.x and which you didn't have with v0.91.x? I'm mostly interested in fixing such new problems right now, to make sure that v0.92.x is at least not any worse compared to v0.91.x.
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Old 24th September 2017, 16:56   #45931  |  Link
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Have you setup the Nvidia control panel for "fullscreen video" under Adjust desktop color settings because if not then it will select Auto and not give you full range.
I do have it set on "Movie" mode but having it set on "Auto" works the same, I guess it does detect it correctly or makes little difference.

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well not sure if you ever used a simple test pattern or if your screen is simply broken but "TV Limited, NVIDIA Limited, madVR Limited" is never ever be correct.

just to be sure what nvidia setting are you setting to limited there are some you simply don't use and leave at default.
How is it not correct and why it should not be correct? If you are going for "Limited" range why there should be one of these set at "Full" instead of "Limited" range?

The setting I am talking about is found under "Change resolution". The "Use default color settings" will provide the TV with RGB limited signal, where limited is "Limited" under "Output dynamic range". The "Use NVIDIA color settings" which lets you customize the output is the same as the default as long as I use RGB limited.

Also, the black crushing x7007 is mentioning is exactly what is happening to me, it is like you reapply "Full" range, it is really weird.


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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
Are you on Windows 10 Creators Update by any chance?
I was running RGB Full on the whole "chain" without any issue previously and since updating to Windows 1703, RGB Full output is buggy on my 1050 Ti (whites are clipped and blacks are dark gray). I tried several drivers and full cleanup of driver files and registry, but it's always buggy.
I filed a bug report via NVIDIA driver survey page last week but haven't heard back yet, I hope they look into it because I'm stuck with RGB Limited until it's fixed.
I am using Creator's but I never had any issues with RGB Full or Limited on 2 different monitors and PCs* or my TV, especially with grayed out blacks.

Tested signal output from:
680
760
1080 Ti

*With a fresh install on every single Windows 10 update.

Have you tried a fresh install or DDU? If there are no mentions from others of this problem, maybe there is something else going on, I would try DDU (Display Driver Uninstaller) first and then a fresh install, I would never expect anything from NVIDIA's support, especially if it is not a widespread issue.

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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
5) There's still a chance the TV might not do RGB -> YCbCr -> RGB, but keep everything in RGB. Some TVs might be able to perform color processing stuff in RGB. And even if they don't, I know for a fact that several (many?) TVs have a special "PC" or "low latency" mode in which all the color processing stuff is disabled, anyway. For some TV models (e.g. my Sony 4K LCD) this is also the only way to get 4:4:4 chroma support.
I do have such a mode on my TV, but is there a way to confirm whether this is also the only way for me to get 4:4:4 chroma support? Is it possible for me to verify this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
There must be something wrong. My best guess is that your Nvidia config is somehow to blame. In the Nvidia control panel, have you reset everything to "neutral" settings? No fancy stuff active like skin tone "enhancements", private Nvidia color settings etc? I'd also suggest you try the "madLevelsTweaker" utility. Maybe it will solve this issue for you.
My NVIDIA config has always worked like that for dynamic range as far as I can remember, there are no special tweaks and setting besides the ones that relate to games, and a default and clean installation works the same as it did multiple drivers before this one. Absolutely nothing affected dynamic range for better or worse.

Enhancements and video player tweaks are not activated anywhere on the control panel and all settings let the video player do its thing. Other such settings that exist on Intel's embedded GPUs I do not have since my processor does not have an embedded GPU, the only thing installed is the NVIDIA's graphic card.

The utility you are mentioning is for forcing "Full" range but for the "Adjust video color settings" section right? I have set this to "With the video player settings" instead of custom. Wouldn't forcing another "Full" range make things even worse considering I have black crushing blacks like x7007 mentioned?
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Old 24th September 2017, 17:02   #45932  |  Link
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How is it not correct and why it should not be correct? If you are going for "Limited" range why there should be one of these set at "Full" instead of "Limited" range?
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...16#post1271416

GPU full means do nothing to the signal.
GPU limited means take the full range signal and make limited out of it. the GPU always thinks the input is full range even with madVR at limited.
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Old 24th September 2017, 17:06   #45933  |  Link
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Have you tried unchecking the "send HDR metadata to the display" option, when you pick "passthrough HDR content to the display" in madVR? Does the JVC still go magenta?
I tried, it doesn't make any difference. The only way to make it work with MadVR is to get MadVR to convert to SDR. Then it works fine.

As I said, it's not a metadata issue, the Vertex receives the metadata, decodes it, displays it on the OSD, then kills the metadata. The display never gets it.

As far as the display is concerned, it's always receiving SDR, I am the one deciding which calibration should be applied (SDR REc-709 or HDR BT2020).
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Old 24th September 2017, 17:43   #45934  |  Link
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@madshi Thanks, now the flickering is disappeared on windowed mode + OSD enabled + pause mode. (v0.92.4)

Once you pause, there's a quick flicker still but not a big deal.
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Old 24th September 2017, 18:34   #45935  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
Using Kodi and its video rules I use xysubfilter for material filling the screen (1.33, 1.78 and 1.85) and vsfilter for 2.35 and 2.40 movies.

It helps that I tend to have movies in HD and SD material is mainly 4:3.
Thanks

Filling your screen, you mean when you have no black bars?

I don't understand if there is difference between standard black bars, and bars that is "part" of the movie...

Btw, you mean xyVSfiler?

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Old 24th September 2017, 20:15   #45936  |  Link
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Originally Posted by steakhutzeee View Post
Thanks

Filling your screen, you mean when you have no black bars?

I don't understand if there is difference between standard black bars, and bars that is "part" of the movie...

Btw, you mean xyVSfiler?
Yes, I mean xyVSfilter.

As for the other question, for what concerns me the main problem with xyVSfilter is its unability to render subs at target resolution but rendering them at video resolution.

This is a problem for SD sources. I use these rules:

<subs videoaspect="1.33|1.66|1.78" filter="xysubfilter" />
<subs videoaspect="1.85|2.20|2.35|2.40" filter="directvobsub_(auto-loading_version)" />

This way I have xysubfilter in case where resolution might be low (1.33, 1.66) or where the screen is filled (1.78) and xyVSfilter (DirectVobSub) where I need to be sure subs are moved to the bottom of the screen and where I mostly (99%) have HD sources and so rendering at video resolution does not constitute a problem.
I hope it's clear. If it isn't, PM me or write in the Kodi thread that's been opened recently.
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Old 24th September 2017, 20:17   #45937  |  Link
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Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
Yes, I mean xyVSfilter.

As for the other question, for what concerns me the main problem with xyVSfilter is its unability to render subs at target resolution but rendering them at video resolution.

This is a problem for SD sources. I use these rules:




This way I have xysubfilter in case where resolution might be low (1.33, 1.66) or where the screen is filled (1.78) and xyVSfilter (DirectVobSub) where I need to be sure subs are moved to the bottom of the screen and where I mostly (99%) have HD sources and so rendering at video resolution does not constitute a problem.
I hope it's clear. If it isn't, PM me or write in the Kodi thread that's been opened recently.
Thank you

I'm going to look at it asap
I use mpc be, you think it's the same?

I'm on a 1920*1080 monitor, so filling the monitor videos are the ones with 16:9 aspect ratio? I'm not so good at it
You think i've to edit something here for best use with my monitor?



Talking about VSFilter, i installed it, and selected it in MPC BE, enabled at preferred DirectVobSub(auto loading) in External Filters, but when loading a file i don't see any icon an it's not in the list of active filters. What i'm doing wrong? I've all x64. EDIT: Selecting DirectVobSub instead of the auto-loading version, icon appears and filter is loaded fine. But i've the exact output i've with XySubfilter, subs are not in the black bars.

Same result with the Internal Subtitle Renderer, subs are on the video, not below.

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Old 24th September 2017, 21:36   #45938  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...16#post1271416

GPU full means do nothing to the signal.
GPU limited means take the full range signal and make limited out of it. the GPU always thinks the input is full range even with madVR at limited.
I understand that but why is it better to use a mix of dynamic ranges instead of having Limited on NVIDIA CP, Limited on madVR, and Limited on the TV assuming someone wants Limited as the end result. Why does it make more sense to have a mix of dynamic ranges like el Filou suggested? I do not understand this.

Having NVIDIA CP set to Full and madVR at Limited is what gives me as a final result "Full". If I change madVR or the TV to "Full" I will get blacks crushes further and further.

You are suggesting otherwise and I cannot identify the source of the problem.
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Old 24th September 2017, 21:37   #45939  |  Link
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Have you tried unchecking the "send HDR metadata to the display" option, when you pick "passthrough HDR content to the display" in madVR? Does the JVC still go magenta?
Apologies for my earlier answer regarding this, I thought I had tested this and it didn't make any difference, but I double checked just to be sure and if I disable "send HDR Metadata to the display" I'm able to display 4K60p 8bits HDR in RGB (the screen doesn't go magenta).

This makes more sense (I understand why you were confused), what doesn't is that this metadata (which I do send usually so it can be decoded by the Vertex) isn't supposed to go past the Vertex, and most of it doesn't as my display doesn't switch to HDR automatically. If the metadata was sent, it would switch. I'm going to discuss this with HD Fury.

Just to clarify, my normal MadVR config is HDR passthrough with Send HDR Metadata enabled (so the Vertex can read it and display it).

It's good to know that if I disable the metadata in MadVR, I can get 4K60p GRB 8bits to display properly on the display, but I shouldn't have to do this with the Vertex.

I'll keep you posted, thanks again for the suggestion.

I've re-tested with the latest MadVR build but I have no reason to think that it's the new build that caused this difference in behaviour.

One unrelated issue with MadVR: I have an NTSC DVD (Klute), ripped into DVD Folder, that doesn't render properly with MadVR. If I select EVR-CP, everything is fine (menus and film), but with MadVR the Warner Bros logo plays fine, then I only see the selecting line of the menu (not the menu options themselves), and no video at all (black screen) with audio when playing the film.

I've tried other PAL and NTSC DVDs and I haven't found other titles behaving like this. I kown that earlier versions of MadVR used to work because I watched it a few months ago with MadVR and it worked fine. I couldn't say when it broke.
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Old 24th September 2017, 21:55   #45940  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Fabulist View Post
The utility you are mentioning is for forcing "Full" range but for the "Adjust video color settings" section right? I have set this to "With the video player settings" instead of custom. Wouldn't forcing another "Full" range make things even worse considering I have black crushing blacks like x7007 mentioned?
Why don't you simply give it a try? Shouldn't cost you more than 10 minutes. Maybe it works, and you just giving it a try will save us all precious time. If it doesn't work, the madLevelsTweaker also allows you to undo the tweak. So no harm done in any case.

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Originally Posted by khanmein View Post
@madshi Thanks, now the flickering is disappeared on windowed mode + OSD enabled + pause mode. (v0.92.4)

Once you pause, there's a quick flicker still but not a big deal.
Good to hear, although I'm not sure why it's gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabulist View Post
I understand that but why is it better to use a mix of dynamic ranges instead of having Limited on NVIDIA CP, Limited on madVR, and Limited on the TV assuming someone wants Limited as the end result. Why does it make more sense to have a mix of dynamic ranges like el Filou suggested? I do not understand this.
See FAQ in the 2nd post of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
if I disable "send HDR Metadata to the display" I'm able to display 4K60p 8bits HDR in RGB (the screen doesn't go magenta).

This makes more sense (I understand why you were confused), what doesn't is that this metadata (which I do send usually so it can be decoded by the Vertex) isn't supposed to go past the Vertex, and most of it doesn't as my display doesn't switch to HDR automatically. If the metadata was sent, it would switch. I'm going to discuss this with HD Fury.

Just to clarify, my normal MadVR config is HDR passthrough with Send HDR Metadata enabled (so the Vertex can read it and display it).

It's good to know that if I disable the metadata in MadVR, I can get 4K60p GRB 8bits to display properly on the display, but I shouldn't have to do this with the Vertex.
You're probably already aware, but just in case: Of course you can use profiles to workaround this issue. You can send metadata for framerates lower than 59fps, and disable metadata for 59fps+.

Anyway. I'm not 100% sure if the issue is with the Vertex. It could be. But it could also be a bug with the Nvidia GPU. In theory, when the Nvidia GPU is in HDR mode, all that should be different should be that the HDMI signal says "PQ" transfer function, and some SMPTE 2086 metadata. The actual pixels values and format should stay the same. But maybe the Nvidia GPU "secretly" also changes the pixel format? Maybe the GPU thinks that 60fps is too much for your HDMI connection and thus switches to YCbCr 4:2:0 or 4:2:2, but still reports RGB to the display? Or something weird like that. I don't really know, just some wild thoughts. Just wanted to let you know this, so you don't put the blame to 100% on the Vertex. It could be the Vertex, or it could be the Nvidia GPU/driver.

FWIW, which "max pixel clock" does your EDID report? (See JVC identification tab in madVR.)

Edit: You also have an AVR between HTPC and JVC, right? That one could also play a role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
I have an NTSC DVD (Klute), ripped into DVD Folder, that doesn't render properly with MadVR. If I select EVR-CP, everything is fine (menus and film), but with MadVR the Warner Bros logo plays fine, then I only see the selecting line of the menu (not the menu options themselves), and no video at all (black screen) with audio when playing the film.

I've tried other PAL and NTSC DVDs and I haven't found other titles behaving like this. I kown that earlier versions of MadVR used to work because I watched it a few months ago with MadVR and it worked fine. I couldn't say when it broke.
A while ago nevcairiel modified the way LAV Video Decoder transports subtitles to madVR. LAV used to draw the subtitles directly on top of the video. But a while ago nevcairiel changed that to send the subtitles to me by using the new subtitle interface (also used by XySubFilter). The advantage of the new logic is that madVR has greater control. I had asked nevcairiel for this change, so that I could move subtitles into the active video rectangle, when using the auto black bar detection etc. My best guess is that this issue was introduced with this change in LAV Video Decoder.

It could be a bug in LAV or in madVR, it's hard to say for me. Can you upload a sample, so nevcairiel and I can both double check?
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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