IDEA : If OGG can handle errors in streams, could we use something like vcd ? - Page 2

MaTTeR · 9th March 2002, 01:24

Quote:

Originally posted by canadian_fbi
has anyone actually gotten 750+ mb on an 80 minute disc?

I've never been over 714MB, anything more produces an error. So that was my question about the Nero settings. I'm doubting it's true Mode2/Form2.

Neo Neko · 9th March 2002, 01:31

No at this point he is indeed going into overburn territory. I have checked inside Nero and the only way to do mode2(ISO-Level 2) form2 is with Neros VCD or SVCD template. Which will not work in a pinch. I have been playing arround with mkisofs, but to the best of my knowledge I have found no way to do form 2 with it. Mode 2 yes form 2 no. I am hunting for software or workarounds that will do this though. But no paydirt just yet. I will post back when there is. I have gotten some CD-I authoring software. CD-I was the first and is the basis for mode 2 form 2 yellow book I believe VCD and SVCD.

canadian_fbi · 9th March 2002, 01:38

here's a page on roxio's site that shows the sector layout of the different modes. i think what's displayed as "mode 2" in nero and every other cd burning app i've seen is mode 2 form 1.

http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/...orformats.html

i wonder if one could even read data normally off the cd if it was in form 2 though... this link makes it seem like drives would have a problem with it.

unplugged · 9th March 2002, 18:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Neo Neko
No at this point he is indeed going into overburn territory. I have checked inside Nero and the only way to do mode2(ISO-Level 2) form2 is with Neros VCD or SVCD template. Which will not work in a pinch. I have been playing arround with mkisofs, but to the best of my knowledge I have found no way to do form 2 with it. Mode 2 yes form 2 no. I am hunting for software or workarounds that will do this though. But no paydirt just yet. I will post back when there is. I have gotten some CD-I authoring software. CD-I was the first and is the basis for mode 2 form 2 yellow book I believe VCD and SVCD.

This is what I would listen

Probably mode 2 form 1 is Mode2/XA, when you use this format the only difference from classic Mode1 is that space is reported as total space taken by data + CRC/recover (2048+304=2352). (when you right-click to the properties of Mode2/XA CDs data can reach up to ~800 Mb when the source data was ~700 Mb...+ 100 Mb CRC/recover data)

About XA, eXtended Audio of course...
...in fact also audio CDs can contain up to 80min of music in 80min CDs

but however **800** Mb of data (RAW sound or WAV).

Vanos_b · 9th March 2002, 23:03

I have to agree with unplugged: Mode2/XA is Mode2 Form1 that is slightly different from Mode1 Form1 (something like for 4 for I-don't-know-what taken from the ECC, but the sector size for data is still 2048). So the question stays: how can anyone write a Mode2 Form2 CD, because I haven't heard about any other program except CDRDAO (that I couldn't figure out, even with the GUI) that could do that.

yokem55 · 10th March 2002, 02:02

I haven't tried it yet, but cdrwin has settings for "mode 2, form 2"...that's in the data backup area that makes ISO's..I'm not sure it would work...

MaTTeR · 10th March 2002, 02:22

Quote:

Originally posted by yokem55
I haven't tried it yet, but cdrwin has settings for "mode 2, form 2"...

I see Mode2 but not Form2

yokem55 · 10th March 2002, 03:53

ooppss....I could've sworn that "form 2" was in there the last I checked....shucks....

Neo Neko · 10th March 2002, 07:52

Well here is another project for some coders. I don't think I would honestly be able to do it myself. The ISO specs are well doccumented. We either need to take the Existing VCD & SVCD standard and bend it to our will or possibly create our own book for use with formats that can recover from loss. We could take the existing source of mkisofs and moddify it for whitebook type ISO output. This would let us output a directory and contents of our choice in a whitebook ISO immage to feed to nero or most any other program for writing. We could call it something like M-CD for just general media. Not anything so specific as just video or audio. But any format capable of error recovery. We could boost the storrage of an average CD by 100Mb for AV storage.

yokem55 · 10th March 2002, 16:26

I did some reading up on the windows version of cdr doa (the pdf documentaion that came with the command line, not the gui, which I think is useless), and I think I figured out on how to make the .toc file for cd-xa mode 2 form 2 (which has the larger user data space) for regular data (non-audio) files. I can't really test it right now since I don't have an OGM file that is large enough to really test it. I will be encoding Star Wars ep 1 today, and I will try to get it in at around 750-790 mbytes. I'll be back in a while (probably later this afternoon) with the exact toc file and the command line parameters I'll be trying.....

Vanos_b · 10th March 2002, 16:45

@Neo Neko: Where are these "well documented" ISO specs, because I couldn't find them?
@yokem55: I'm very anctious to find out what you've achieved

Neo Neko · 10th March 2002, 21:21

Should be at www.iso.org. Other places have it as well. Hrmmmmmm. Shooping carts at iso.org? they want to sell em? Damn is ther not some backwater *.txt file somewhere. There has go to be. The spec was rattified back in 1988. I will keep digging.

Vanos_b · 10th March 2002, 23:28

Thanks for the link but they want money for the document, so I'm still searching. Is there anyone that knows what the header/subheader/edc fields of the sectors actually contain? I know that the sync field contains a 0, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0 sequence for identifying the start of each sector, the header the Minutes, Seconds, Sectors data (but relative to what?) and the subheader contains data type (but what do you actually put in there?). And how do you calculate the edc? And finally is there anyone who know the specs of the ISO9660/Joliet, I mean how the files are on the disk, where the TOC is and what fields it has (pretty much everything)?

Neo Neko · 11th March 2002, 05:45

The mkisofs source should be very telling. We could go from there and just moddify it to write the larger sectors and everything else for ISO whitebook. What would be really interesting is to see if we could not take and moddify the layout and tweek it even more. Would that break its readability?

chthonous · 11th March 2002, 08:17

I had a couple of near successes with Mode2 Form2 burning with CDRWIN using custom made cue sheets. I took an .ogm file and an .ogg file and made an ISO out of them in CDRWIN. It was about 762MB so I would know that it was not just overburn. Then I used this cue sheet first.

File "c:\test.iso" BINARY
Track 1 mode2/2336
Index 01 00:00:00
postgap 00:02:00

The only problem was that my ISO file size needed to be an exact multiple of 2336. So I opened up a hex editor and filled in some zeros in the end of the ISO file until I had exactly the right file size. This ISO burned successfully in CDRWin but Windows could not read it.

From there I tried another cue sheet.

File "c:\test.iso" BINARY
Track 1 Audio
Index 01 00:00:00
Postgap 00:02:00

This also burned correctly, and provided even more room on the 80 min cd because I think Audio sectors are 2352 bytes per sector. When I put the cd in Mediplayer 6.4 would only recognize it as a CDA file. (OGM movies don't make pretty music.) I tried to get it to play in zoomplayer but it wouldn't recognize the format. Is there anyway a player could be modified to allow a user to define what type of file a CDA track actually is?

Well, those are my two failures. I don't know if they would be of any help to anyone, but I just thought I would post them anyway.

Neo Neko · 11th March 2002, 21:54

Yeah just changing the cue sheet will have no benifit. Your ISO was layed out with a specific format. When you burn it as another format the whole thing becomes unreadable. You would first have to convert the ISO to the format you wish to burn. Just changing a cue sheet will do no good.

Peters · 12th March 2002, 07:58

Of course you're right but if the goal is just to store the avi then it works, i tried with success

just for the fun...

With the cue-audio method, i burn an iso (with avi 690 Mo) on a 650 MB CDRW . CDRWIN burnt that like a 68 mn CDA

Then i used EAC (or CDRWIN) for extracting the false wave track
track01.wav, i take an hex editor to search the "RIFF..." header, finally i used Topsplit for cutting the unwanted beginning of the file.

So i got a new file renamed in movie.avi and all is fine,it plays fine, no errors with virtualdub scan.

Neo Neko · 12th March 2002, 10:07

Well if that is all you want to do rename your *.avi files to *.iso and burn em. Unless your program checks for corruptions(most of em don't) it will get burned to the CD. You should then be able to rip the track and rename it from ISo back to AVI. But that is dificult and tedious.

Peters · 12th March 2002, 10:31

Maybe my post was not enough precise (sorry for my english)
i made short...

my cue, no iso...

FILE C:\movie.avi BINARY
TRACK 01 MODE2/2352
INDEX 01 00:00:00

Burnt with CDRWIN on a Generic CDRW2 recorder, media CD-RW 650 Mb Memorex, speed 4x

Extracting with EAC, cutting with Topsplit.
I made other tests, burning 790 Mo on a 80 mn CD-RW, all the process fine..

BUT it's just for fun! showing that's possible, of course i don't bet on my CD longevity...

ProfDrMorph · 12th March 2002, 20:33

the extraction of the AVI file could be done easier: just use check "Do not write WAV headers" in EAC's Compression Dialog. Then it automatically extracts the AVI file. In theory. Haven't tried it so far.

9th March 2002, 23:03	#25 \| Link
Vanos_b Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 63	I have to agree with unplugged: Mode2/XA is Mode2 Form1 that is slightly different from Mode1 Form1 (something like for 4 for I-don't-know-what taken from the ECC, but the sector size for data is still 2048). So the question stays: how can anyone write a Mode2 Form2 CD, because I haven't heard about any other program except CDRDAO (that I couldn't figure out, even with the GUI) that could do that. __________________ "Because b is usually the second letter of the alphabet".

10th March 2002, 16:45	#31 \| Link
Vanos_b Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 63	@Neo Neko: Where are these "well documented" ISO specs, because I couldn't find them? @yokem55: I'm very anctious to find out what you've achieved __________________ "Because b is usually the second letter of the alphabet".

10th March 2002, 23:28	#33 \| Link
Vanos_b Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 63	Thanks for the link but they want money for the document, so I'm still searching. Is there anyone that knows what the header/subheader/edc fields of the sectors actually contain? I know that the sync field contains a 0, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0 sequence for identifying the start of each sector, the header the Minutes, Seconds, Sectors data (but relative to what?) and the subheader contains data type (but what do you actually put in there?). And how do you calculate the edc? And finally is there anyone who know the specs of the ISO9660/Joliet, I mean how the files are on the disk, where the TOC is and what fields it has (pretty much everything)? __________________ "Because b is usually the second letter of the alphabet". Last edited by Vanos_b; 11th March 2002 at 00:07.

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9th March 2002, 01:31	#22 \| Link
Neo Neko Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 1,812	No at this point he is indeed going into overburn territory. I have checked inside Nero and the only way to do mode2(ISO-Level 2) form2 is with Neros VCD or SVCD template. Which will not work in a pinch. I have been playing arround with mkisofs, but to the best of my knowledge I have found no way to do form 2 with it. Mode 2 yes form 2 no. I am hunting for software or workarounds that will do this though. But no paydirt just yet. I will post back when there is. I have gotten some CD-I authoring software. CD-I was the first and is the basis for mode 2 form 2 yellow book I believe VCD and SVCD.

9th March 2002, 01:38	#23 \| Link
canadian_fbi Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TN, USA Posts: 168	here's a page on roxio's site that shows the sector layout of the different modes. i think what's displayed as "mode 2" in nero and every other cd burning app i've seen is mode 2 form 1. http://www.roxio.com/en/support/cdr/...orformats.html i wonder if one could even read data normally off the cd if it was in form 2 though... this link makes it seem like drives would have a problem with it.

10th March 2002, 02:02	#26 \| Link
yokem55 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 74	I haven't tried it yet, but cdrwin has settings for "mode 2, form 2"...that's in the data backup area that makes ISO's..I'm not sure it would work...

10th March 2002, 03:53	#28 \| Link
yokem55 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 74	ooppss....I could've sworn that "form 2" was in there the last I checked....shucks....

10th March 2002, 07:52	#29 \| Link
Neo Neko Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 1,812	Well here is another project for some coders. I don't think I would honestly be able to do it myself. The ISO specs are well doccumented. We either need to take the Existing VCD & SVCD standard and bend it to our will or possibly create our own book for use with formats that can recover from loss. We could take the existing source of mkisofs and moddify it for whitebook type ISO output. This would let us output a directory and contents of our choice in a whitebook ISO immage to feed to nero or most any other program for writing. We could call it something like M-CD for just general media. Not anything so specific as just video or audio. But any format capable of error recovery. We could boost the storrage of an average CD by 100Mb for AV storage.

10th March 2002, 16:26	#30 \| Link
yokem55 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 74	I did some reading up on the windows version of cdr doa (the pdf documentaion that came with the command line, not the gui, which I think is useless), and I think I figured out on how to make the .toc file for cd-xa mode 2 form 2 (which has the larger user data space) for regular data (non-audio) files. I can't really test it right now since I don't have an OGM file that is large enough to really test it. I will be encoding Star Wars ep 1 today, and I will try to get it in at around 750-790 mbytes. I'll be back in a while (probably later this afternoon) with the exact toc file and the command line parameters I'll be trying.....

10th March 2002, 21:21	#32 \| Link
Neo Neko Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 1,812	Should be at www.iso.org. Other places have it as well. Hrmmmmmm. Shooping carts at iso.org? they want to sell em? Damn is ther not some backwater *.txt file somewhere. There has go to be. The spec was rattified back in 1988. I will keep digging.

11th March 2002, 05:45	#34 \| Link
Neo Neko Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 1,812	The mkisofs source should be very telling. We could go from there and just moddify it to write the larger sectors and everything else for ISO whitebook. What would be really interesting is to see if we could not take and moddify the layout and tweek it even more. Would that break its readability?

11th March 2002, 08:17	#35 \| Link
chthonous Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 8	I had a couple of near successes with Mode2 Form2 burning with CDRWIN using custom made cue sheets. I took an .ogm file and an .ogg file and made an ISO out of them in CDRWIN. It was about 762MB so I would know that it was not just overburn. Then I used this cue sheet first. File "c:\test.iso" BINARY Track 1 mode2/2336 Index 01 00:00:00 postgap 00:02:00 The only problem was that my ISO file size needed to be an exact multiple of 2336. So I opened up a hex editor and filled in some zeros in the end of the ISO file until I had exactly the right file size. This ISO burned successfully in CDRWin but Windows could not read it. From there I tried another cue sheet. File "c:\test.iso" BINARY Track 1 Audio Index 01 00:00:00 Postgap 00:02:00 This also burned correctly, and provided even more room on the 80 min cd because I think Audio sectors are 2352 bytes per sector. When I put the cd in Mediplayer 6.4 would only recognize it as a CDA file. (OGM movies don't make pretty music.) I tried to get it to play in zoomplayer but it wouldn't recognize the format. Is there anyway a player could be modified to allow a user to define what type of file a CDA track actually is? Well, those are my two failures. I don't know if they would be of any help to anyone, but I just thought I would post them anyway.

11th March 2002, 21:54	#36 \| Link
Neo Neko Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 1,812	Yeah just changing the cue sheet will have no benifit. Your ISO was layed out with a specific format. When you burn it as another format the whole thing becomes unreadable. You would first have to convert the ISO to the format you wish to burn. Just changing a cue sheet will do no good.

12th March 2002, 07:58	#37 \| Link
Peters Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: France Posts: 138	Of course you're right but if the goal is just to store the avi then it works, i tried with success just for the fun... With the cue-audio method, i burn an iso (with avi 690 Mo) on a 650 MB CDRW . CDRWIN burnt that like a 68 mn CDA Then i used EAC (or CDRWIN) for extracting the false wave track track01.wav, i take an hex editor to search the "RIFF..." header, finally i used Topsplit for cutting the unwanted beginning of the file. So i got a new file renamed in movie.avi and all is fine,it plays fine, no errors with virtualdub scan.

12th March 2002, 10:07	#38 \| Link
Neo Neko Registered User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Posts: 1,812	Well if that is all you want to do rename your .avi files to .iso and burn em. Unless your program checks for corruptions(most of em don't) it will get burned to the CD. You should then be able to rip the track and rename it from ISo back to AVI. But that is dificult and tedious.

12th March 2002, 10:31	#39 \| Link
Peters Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: France Posts: 138	Maybe my post was not enough precise (sorry for my english) i made short... my cue, no iso... FILE C:\movie.avi BINARY TRACK 01 MODE2/2352 INDEX 01 00:00:00 Burnt with CDRWIN on a Generic CDRW2 recorder, media CD-RW 650 Mb Memorex, speed 4x Extracting with EAC, cutting with Topsplit. I made other tests, burning 790 Mo on a 80 mn CD-RW, all the process fine.. BUT it's just for fun! showing that's possible, of course i don't bet on my CD longevity...

12th March 2002, 20:33	#40 \| Link
ProfDrMorph fresh brains! Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 195	the extraction of the AVI file could be done easier: just use check "Do not write WAV headers" in EAC's Compression Dialog. Then it automatically extracts the AVI file. In theory. Haven't tried it so far.