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Old 4th February 2015, 00:49   #1  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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Resurrecting/forking Smartripper

Despite the fact that development on Smartripper stopped 13 years ago, it remains hands-down the #1 best ripping program in existence... for the discs that it can actually read, anyway. And that's about 99% of DVDs in existence. I can literally count the exceptions on one hand: Grey's Anatomy, Darkwing Duck, Rescue Rangers, Star Trek Into Darkness, and all but the first Bayformers movie (Star Trek '09 might also be an exception; I haven't tried it).

Back in the day when files like Smartripper had to be hosted on central servers in order for anyone to download them, a court order saying "thou shalt not develop or host this software" would be pretty effective at shutting it down. Now, however, we live in the era of Bittorrent. Anyone can work on this software clandestinely, make a torrent, upload it, and laugh as the FBI bangs its head against the wall in frustration. And while I still don't understand how blockchains work, there's probably a way to maintain quality control using a blockchain. So why is no one doing this?
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Old 4th February 2015, 07:43   #2  |  Link
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The answer is, partly, because studios [badly] need piracy.
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Old 6th February 2015, 02:45   #3  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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I don't see how that answers the question...
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Old 6th February 2015, 19:07   #4  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
I don't see how that answers the question...
Me neither

Anyway, why would anybody care about a program like "Smartripper", that has been discontinued more than a decade ago and thus certainly doesn't handle any of the current "copy protection" schemes?

For those discs, for which it worked 10+ years ago, it should still work nowadays. And adding support for recent discs to the ten-years-old app would probably require the same amount of work as writing a "modern" ripper from the scratch

Furthermore, I don't think Smartripper has ever been OpenSource. If so, nobody (except maybe the original developers) has access to the source codes. And without the sources, you can not continue development - except by means of reverse engineering. But why should anybody bother about reverse engineering a ripping software that has not been updated for a decade and that does not support any recent discs? It's just not worth the effort. There are many alternatives!

Last but not least, anybody who develops a ripper that is capable of handling recent discs will be under heavy "pressure" by the film industry. That's why many developers stay away from that territory
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Old 6th February 2015, 23:44   #5  |  Link
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Anyway, why would anybody care about a program like "Smartripper"
Because it shows the user exactly how the information on a disc is organized, it lets the user choose the names and destinations of the files being ripped, it can split and weld vob files along chapter lines in a way that DVDfab doesn't (for example, it allows you to remove chapters from the middle of a movie or episode - great for removing intermissions or opening credits!), it's not annoying and intrusive as hell like DVDfab is, it cures cancer, and it's basically awesomesauce on a diamond-studded silver plate?

Seriously, have you even USED Smartripper?

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I don't think Smartripper has ever been OpenSource.
Now THAT could be a problem.
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Old 7th February 2015, 00:14   #6  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
Seriously, have you even USED Smartripper?
I might have use it on occasion, like 10+ years ago. That was probably before I came across DVDDecrypter and DVDShrink.

And of course it was before those newer "copy protection" schemes became popular and thus all of the aforementioned tools stopped working with recent discs

Again: If, nowadays, somebody was to develop a new ripping software, which is supposed to be capable of dealing with the latest "copy protection" schemes (like DVDFab and AnyDVD can do), he or she would probably be better off by starting from the scratch than building on top of a legacy software that hadn't been maintained for more than a decade.
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Old 7th February 2015, 00:29   #7  |  Link
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Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
Again: If, nowadays, somebody was to develop a new ripping software, which is supposed to be capable of dealing with the latest "copy protection" schemes (like DVDFab and AnyDVD can do), he or she would probably be better off by starting from the scratch than building on top of a legacy software that hadn't been maintained for more than a decade.
Because reinventing the wheel always makes sense, right?
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Old 7th February 2015, 00:48   #8  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
Because reinventing the wheel always makes sense, right?


Says the person who suggest to develop yet another ripping software (as if we didn't have plenty of alternatives available) and who suggests to do this based on some antiquated tool that is at least 10 years behind in development compared to other ripping tools. If that wouldn't be reinventing the wheel, I don't know what else. But if you think it is such a good idea, when exactly are you going to present your Smartripper fork to the world and blow us all away with your brilliance?

(So far you are only talking about what everybody else ought to be doing, but I don't see you actually delivering anything)
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Old 7th February 2015, 01:07   #9  |  Link
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Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
Says the person who suggest to develop yet another ripping software
Excuse me? I said no such thing. YOU were the one who suggested starting from the ground up.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

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some antiquated tool that is at least 10 years behind in development compared to other ripping tools.
Dude, ripping tools aren't CPUs or jet fighters. Newer ones aren't more advanced than older ones in any respect except their ability to handle newer encryption methods, which is also the one area in which I'm suggesting Smartripper be updated.

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So far you are only talking about what everybody else ought to be doing, but I don't see you actually delivering anything
That might have something to do with the fact that I'm not a programmer.
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Old 7th February 2015, 01:37   #10  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
Excuse me? I said no such thing. YOU were the one who suggested starting from the ground up.
You suggested to "resurrect" Smartripper, an antiquated tool that was abandoned 10+ years ago, despite the fact that we have plenty of up-to-date rippers to choose from. And despite the fact that, AFAIK, we don't even have the source codes of Smartripper. If that isn't "reinventing the wheel", then what else is?

Furthermore you need to read more carefully: What I told you is that Smartripper is so much outdated that it's source code (assuming that we had it) probably would not be of any help to develop a ripper capable of dealing with the current "copy protection" schemes. Maybe some "trivial" stuff could be re-used, but for the predominant part this program simply is not interesting, helpful or relevant these days. So "updating" Smartripper into something that is actually useful nowadays would probably require at least the same amount of work as developing a "modern" ripper from the scratch. And the latter case comes at the advantage that you don't need to deal with tons of old cruft. But I did not suggest to actually develop yet another ripper from the scratch. Of course, I won't try to stop you, if you want to do it anyway

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That might have something to do with the fact that I'm not a programmer.
It's strange that you still you seem to know everything better and tell everybody what they ought to be doing...
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Old 7th February 2015, 01:58   #11  |  Link
Katie Boundary
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You know, you COULD have just let this go at:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think Smartripper has ever been OpenSource.
Now THAT could be a problem.
But you just had to keep digging yourself a hole, didn't you?

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Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
You suggested to "resurrect" Smartripper
Yes. That's not the same thing as designing a new ripper from the ground up, which is what you suggested and then accused me of suggesting.

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Furthermore you need to read more carefully: What I told you is that Smartripper is so much outdated that it probably is not of any help to develop a ripper capable of dealing with the current "copy protection" schemes. Maybe some "trivial" stuff could be re-used
That "trivial stuff" is the reason why Smartripper was banned. The courts deemed that it was literally too good at what it did, because of that "trivial stuff". And seriously, I'm pretty sure it would be easier to take ONE thing - CPRM decryption - from another piece of software and add it to Smartripper than it would be to to take literally everything else from Smartripper and add it to another program.

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but for the predominant part this program simply is not interesting or relevant these days.
Now that's simply wrong. Smartripper is still the best ripper for 99% of DVDs in existence.

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Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
But I did not suggest to actually develop yet another ripper from the scratch.
Actually, you did. Your exact words were:

If, nowadays, somebody was to develop a new ripping software, which is supposed to be capable of dealing with the latest "copy protection" schemes (like DVDFab and AnyDVD can do), he or she would probably be better off by starting from the scratch [rather than trying to update an antiquated tool like Smartripper]



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It's strange that still you seem to know everything better
Not everything, just the three things I've talked about on these forums

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Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
and tell everybody what they ought to do...
Ummm what? I never did any such thing.
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Old 7th February 2015, 12:52   #12  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
Yes. That's not the same thing as designing a new ripper from the ground up, which is what you suggested and then accused me of suggesting.
I did not suggest to designing a new ripper from the ground up!

But I told you that doing so would probably be the more viable alternative to "updating" (or reverse engineering) an antiquated tool like Smartripper, which had been abandoned 10+ years ago and thus totally lacks any kind of support for any of the recent "copy protection" schemes, into something that is useful nowadays...

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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
That "trivial stuff" is the reason why Smartripper was banned. The courts deemed that it was literally too good at what it did, because of that "trivial stuff". And seriously, I'm pretty sure it would be easier to take ONE thing - CPRM decryption - from another piece of software and add it to Smartripper than it would be to to take literally everything else from Smartripper and add it to another program.
CSS, the original "copy protection" scheme used on Video-DVD, is severely broken in may ways. It uses weak cryptography, which alone makes it easy to break. But it also has several design flaws on top of that, which make it even more easy to circumvent. So, technically, being able to deal with CSS - and that's probably the only kind of "copy protection" that Smartripper ever could handle - is trivial! It's really nothing special or worthwhile.

Now, whether circumventing CSS is legal or not, that's a totally different question! It's not a technical question, but a question for lawyers and lobbyists. And yes, in some countries you can be accused for circumventing a so-called "copy protection" scheme (or for distributing software which does that), even when that so-called "copy protection" scheme is actually (technically) trivial to circumvent.

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TNow that's simply wrong. Smartripper is still the best ripper for 99% of DVDs in existence.
And that far-fetched claim is backed by what?

Did you test all Video-DVD's ever released (including all releases in the last couple of years) or how did you determine that number?

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Originally Posted by Katie Boundary View Post
Actually, you did. Your exact words were:

If, nowadays, somebody was to develop a new ripping software, which is supposed to be capable of dealing with the latest "copy protection" schemes (like DVDFab and AnyDVD can do), he or she would probably be better off by starting from the scratch [rather than trying to update an antiquated tool like Smartripper]
This quote was taken out of context, so I have corrected it. Anyway, and despite of your very obvious trolling, I say it again:

I did not suggest to designing a new ripper from the ground up!

But I told you that doing so would probably be the more viable alternative to "updating" (or reverse engineering) an antiquated tool like Smartripper, which had been abandoned 10+ years ago and thus totally lacks any kind of support for any of the recent "copy protection" schemes, into something that is useful nowadays...



Be aware: Further posts that just contain blatant trolling will simply be deleted, according to rule #11. Rule violations may result in strike.
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How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork.



Last edited by LoRd_MuldeR; 7th February 2015 at 16:13.
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Old 7th February 2015, 15:06   #13  |  Link
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As a side note:
a. Is there source code available of any DVD and or Blu-ray ripper ? (not counting libdvdcss)
b. assuming the smart ripper source code would have been available, I suspect that there would have been a fork.
-> no source code, nothing to fork or ressurect
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Old 7th February 2015, 16:41   #14  |  Link
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@LoRd_MuldeR, Selur,

You can find the sourcecode of the latest version (2.41) of Smartripper at: http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/sources.htm
Of course i like to see an open source alternative to the state of the art ripping tools which are out there.

Someone added some stuff to it (2.42): https://sourceforge.net/p/smartripper/wiki/changelog/ (apparently you have to build yourself).

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Old 7th February 2015, 17:20   #15  |  Link
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@Wilbert:Thanks for the info! Didn't know that the source was there!
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Old 7th February 2015, 18:25   #16  |  Link
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Originally Posted by LoRd_MuldeR View Post
I did not suggest to designing a new ripper from the ground up!

But I told you that doing so would probably be the more viable alternative
That counts as suggesting it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suggest?s=t

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CSS, the original "copy protection" scheme used on Video-DVD, is severely broken in may ways. It uses weak cryptography, which alone makes it easy to break. But it also has several design flaws on top of that, which make it even more easy to circumvent. So, technically, being able to deal with CSS - and that's probably the only kind of "copy protection" that Smartripper ever could handle - is trivial! It's really nothing special or worthwhile.

Now, whether circumventing CSS is legal or not, that's a totally different question! It's not a technical question, but a question for lawyers and lobbyists. And yes, in some countries you can be accused for circumventing a so-called "copy protection" scheme (or for distributing software which does that), even when that so-called "copy protection" scheme is actually (technically) trivial to circumvent.
That has literally absolutely nothing to do with what I said except that the words "Smartripper" and "trivial" appeared again.

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And that far-fetched claim is backed by what?

Did you test all Video-DVD's ever released (including all releases in the last couple of years) or how did you determine that number?
Not all, but it's an absurdly high number, well into the hundreds.

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Be aware: Further posts that just contain blatant trolling will simply be deleted, according to rule #11. Rule violations may result in strike.
So winning an argument with you counts as trolling now?

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@LoRd_MuldeR, Selur,

You can find the sourcecode of the latest version (2.41) of Smartripper at: http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/sources.htm
Cool! If no one else wants to pick up the torch, I might learn how to code just so I can keep SR updated.
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Old 8th February 2015, 10:42   #17  |  Link
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I don't see how that answers the question...
Well, it answers very simple...

Any state can fully control the internet, but copyright issues have to me demanded for (unlike murders or other crimes that carry the same punishment ).

Therefore if studios wanted any of these tools disappear, they could do the same way they managed to get CloneXYZ series off market of any colour .
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Old 8th February 2015, 10:50   #18  |  Link
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Anyway, this discussion seems to be sterile.

The DVDs have a fundamental error, and so have the "recent than 10 years" tools.
The fundamental error of the latter is that they are adressed to a public that is brainless. Well, if one has to sell something that one has to follow the Apple ideas, right? . That means the engineers have to implement each disc in the software, because the user is not able to make the right decision, because, well .... So a whole lotta "casual pirates" disappeared when eg CloneDVD was banned, and the rest started crying at AnyDVD/DVDFab for upgrades to handle the next DVD protection.

The only protection that is impossible to rip with SmartRipper (and some work after) is based on bad sectors.
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Old 8th February 2015, 11:08   #19  |  Link
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The DVDs have a fundamental error, and so have the "recent than 10 years" tools.
The fundamental error of the latter is that they are adressed to a public that is brainless. Well, if one has to sell something that one has to follow the Apple ideas, right? . That means the engineers have to implement each disc in the software, because the user is not able to make the right decision, because, well
I have seen a lot of your bizarre posts but this one takes a top five spot.
My favorite is "recent than 10 years tools are addressed to a brainless public". Love it.
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Old 12th February 2015, 17:24   #20  |  Link
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I have seen a lot of your bizarre posts but this one takes a top five spot.
My favorite is "recent than 10 years tools are addressed to a brainless public". Love it.
I didn't think that I was in need to explain that any DVD can be ripped with no troubles at all with small, simple but powerful software - and some handwork (cleaning the fake jumps, fake conditional loops and stuff). And yes, in one variant (there are several variants) I used SmartRipper because it was the only software I knew that could take a folder from HDD and deCSS the ripped DVD (I had to rip the DVD still CSSed, once, to prove a point to a friend - that DVDs have a fatal designing flaw).

On the other hand, I remember how loud cried the "pirate population" that the last disc of Sony/Disney could not be ripped with the current version (of the two known products) and begged for a quick fix or full release. A monkey could insert the disc in the DVD-drive and press Start, so I don't really see where's the "pirate" aspect of this job or the intellect needed for this .

I don't know whether this will take away some weirdness or doubles it
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