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Old 3rd January 2005, 17:38   #121  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
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I've been experimenting with Mpeg2 high-def 1920x1080 (1088) and 1440x1080 (1088) files!

Would it possible for MuxMan to author such streams into VOB too?

I realise std-def stand-alone DVD players will not be able to spin and display such files but PC's and maybe even high-def stand-alone players might!


Just a thought... Cheers
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Old 3rd January 2005, 18:35   #122  |  Link
Sir Didymus
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Hey guys,

Respectfully speaking, but it seems here nobody takes care any longer about silly things like specifications...

About muxing more than a single video stream into a VOB file... this is simply explicitely forbidden...

But in general, lets'assume it's possible to go beyond the specification, generating some exotic super format DVD++. What happens when something goes wrong ? Which way people can judge who is right if person X say a given title plays perfectly and person Y states the same is crappy ?

Firt of all NEW specifications are necessary,... THEN it will be possible to provide some implementation compliant with this superset...

Regarding high definition, that's a feature I'd like to see... But not on my PC. I'd like it on my HD standalone, with my HD television, using my HD media... I mean, let's wait a couple of years, in the most optimistic scenario...

What I know (maybe I am wrong...) is that two consortia are actually fighting for the promotion of two candidate standards: Blue-ray and HD-DVD... All the rest is just dreaming.

Are you actually so disappointed about the DVD quality ?

Cheers,
SD
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Old 3rd January 2005, 19:00   #123  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Didymus
About muxing more than a single video stream into a VOB file... this is simply explicitely forbidden...
If you are refering to what Malcolm said, I think this would be very useful. It's not a request for creating a VOB with two video streams, just the ability to join clips. That's just my understanding of what he said.

Butterfingers: Edited spelling.

Last edited by mrslacker; 3rd January 2005 at 20:37.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 19:09   #124  |  Link
Xesdeeni
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Isn't it a feature of DVDs to allow multiple viewing angles? Isn't that multiple video streams?

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Old 3rd January 2005, 19:21   #125  |  Link
Malcolm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Didymus
About muxing more than a single video stream into a VOB file... this is simply explicitely forbidden...
I think there's a misunderstandig: muxing multiple videostreams *after* another in one VOB file is exactly what you can do with every DVD authoring program around. Try it with DVD Lab. Multiple .MPVs (same size, etc.) IN -> one .VOB OUT.
I think this is 100% compliant to the DVD standard. DVD Lab gives explicit warnings + errors if you try to do somethings that isn't dvd compliant!

to my request regarding GOP lengths > 15 (and video sizes like 480x576): this is no 'super format DVD++' as you say! supporting such things is of big practical use. DVB streams *HAVE* GOP lengths > 15. what prize do i get for having a super-duper 100% standard-compliant multiplexer when i can't use it because it refuses 99% of all my videos?
i'm recording & burning DVB streams for myself. and my dvd player plays them fine. so for whom should it make them standard compliant?
why *REFUSE* a stream which has 0.1% long GOPs inside?? it's o.k. to give a warning but i expect a tool to *HELP* me, not *HINDER* me!
i mean i'm just talking about a *checkbox* to switch some dvd compliancy-checks on and off! this doesn't makes muxman worse! it's beneficial IMHO!
Btw. no other multiplexer complains about GOP lengths > 15. and this is perfectly ok. otherwise i would have had a lot of trouble getting my videos on dvd!
sure i could use these muxers (as i already do). but if muxman is faster, will have more options and is more reliable, why not have it alltogether?

greetings,
Malcolm
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Old 3rd January 2005, 19:22   #126  |  Link
SeeMoreDigital
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Didymus
About muxing more than a single video stream into a VOB file... this is simply explicitely forbidden...
As far as I know, there's nothing forbidden with being able to join multiple video streams (with their corresponding audio streams) into a single VOB file (or more VOB files), if required...

Indeed, such an option would be very handy when coupled with a correctly written "import chapter" file!

I'm quite fed up receiving show-reel DVD's that contain only one "short" video file per VOB.

I got a disc before Xmas that had 24 VOB files on it, with a total run-time of approx 30mins. Which certainly does not conform to the DVD specification!


Cheers
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Last edited by SeeMoreDigital; 3rd January 2005 at 19:37.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 19:57   #127  |  Link
Sir Didymus
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@Malcom.

Regarding "more than 1 video stream", I have to apologise: just totally misunderstood what you meant. Really afraid.

Well, since the declared intentions (written in the download page) of the author are:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is only the beginning. The multiplexing engine, dubbed "MME" for MPUCoder's Multiplexing Engine, was written from the ground up to work with multiple angles as well as properly handle mpeg-2 pulldown. This means multiple angles and multiple stories (true seamless branching) are possible without altering the engine. Of course to achieve that the engine needs to be driven properly, but the capability is there.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think you (and myself) may assume that what you are asking is already planned as an evolutionary step of this "MME"...

About the GOP lenght and the requirements of other kind people asking to "exceed" or to "relax" the DVD specs, well, there are very solid reasons in the standards for requiring the max GOP size of 15 (for PAL) and 18 (for NTSC). That's all. If it is not allowed, it is of no relevance the result play perfectly on 99% of the standalones. There are situations [Well, here I am emphasizing, a little bit, it is just an example...] where you simply must be 100% compliant, and can not tolerate that 1% of your products would be rejected (with valid reasons) by your customers...

Cheers,
SD
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:08   #128  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Didymus
There are situations [Well, here I am emphasizing, a little bit, it is just an example...] where you simply must be 100% compliant, and can not tolerate that 1% of your products would be rejected (with valid reasons) by your customers...
... and there are situations where you can tolerate 1% incompatibility.

The question is about who should be deciding this: the muxer or the user? I think the user should have the final say. The tool should give a warning, yes, (and this is what muxman does for underflows) and ask the user if they really want to continue, but it shouldn't summarily reject them.

Unconditional rejection is fine if you're in a position to encode the video again to be compliant, but it sucks if you're dealing with a video stream you didn't make.

Last edited by stickboy; 3rd January 2005 at 20:10.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:09   #129  |  Link
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Multiple video/audio files is mentioned in the readme file as something that will come later. The development of MuxMan is going through stages, the first of which is a multiplexer which is as standard-compliant as possible. Other programs have rushed to add features, and the result is what we here call a cluster f*** of non-compliant programs. That is not what I want Muxman to become, or to even help continue.

Some changes mentioned here will come in good time. Others are just not in the path of development I envision. DVB needs to be looked at for ways to make it compliant. Possibly by splitting GOPs (needs an I-frame). HD will come in another multiplexer once the format is known to me.

One workaround for short clips is to join them prior to multiplexing. If they are compatible you can join them using something as simple as copy /b

And in case you're wondering what I'm working on currently - one computer is running compliancy tests, which are getting fixed (they are not severe) for the next release. I've finished I-frame encoding and am working on bmp import for subpictures. That will enable sst support, and together will take Muxman one step closer to making menues.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:14   #130  |  Link
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About relaxing the GOP restriction - it could be done, but I need to know by how much. The restriction is there primarily to prevent internal tables from overflowing, so I need an absolute upper limit.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:15   #131  |  Link
Sir Didymus
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Quote:
Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

...
I'm quite fed up receiving show-reel DVD's that contain only one "short" video file per VOB.

I got a disc before Xmas that had 24 VOB files on it, with a total run-time of approx 30mins. Which certainly does not conform to the DVD specification!


Cheers
Hi, Afraid if my poor English generated some confusion...
Again apologise about the point of "more than 1 video stream".

On the other hand the second point you are stating is really surprising to me...

Almost sure I am having again some poor understanding of your words...

You mean that since you receive badly authored DVD on your desktop, and they play well on your standalone, then we should ask to the MuxMan author the "freedom" of producing crappy DVD ? Mhhh...

All the best,
SD

Last edited by Sir Didymus; 3rd January 2005 at 20:18.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:33   #132  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Didymus
You mean that since you receive badly authored DVD on your desktop, and they play well on your standalone, then we should ask to the MuxMan author the "freedom" of producing crappy DVD ? Mhhh...
I'm sorry to report, I receive badly authored DVD's all the time SD

And although these DVD's are not "store bought" movie titles, they have been created by people in the "audio/video" industry, who should know better!

Quite often I receive disc's that contain a simple menu pointing to many individual VOB files. Or disc's with multiple clips that are in one long VOB file but with no chapter points!

I even receive disc's containing both of the above


Cheers
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:43   #133  |  Link
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I can see why you'd want a program to point to and ask them to use. But just what would you like the disks to contain? A single vob with each file as a chapter?
I have thought about adding a "dailies" feature. For those of you not familiar, a daily is the raw footage shot in one day. Put on DVD they contain identification and timecode to aid in critique. If I were to do this the id and timecode would be added by forced sub.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:48   #134  |  Link
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Please forgive me if this is too far asunder, but putting the timecode as a subtitle is something I'd like to do with my home movies when I convert them from DV to DVD. I can't seem to find a reasonable method of doing this. Might your daily proposal be part of the process?

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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:51   #135  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpucoder
I can see why you'd want a program to point to and ask them to use. But just what would you like the disks to contain? A single vob with each file as a chapter?
I don't know about SeeMoreDigital, but A single VOB with arbitrary user specified chapter points would be ideal. I'm thinking along the lines of the way DVDAuthor can form a single VOB and single pgc from multiple sources. On the other hand, having an option to create separate VOBs might be useful for a disc with distinctly different footage, like episodes or daily footage. Not sure I would have any use for the subs you mentioned in regards to "dailies" however.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 20:54   #136  |  Link
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Xesdeeni - That is exactly what it would do. There is a program out there that does just this. Unfortunately, I can't remember its name, or if it is free.
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Old 3rd January 2005, 21:04   #137  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpucoder
But just what would you like the disks to contain? A single vob with each file as a chapter?
If you mean "each clip as a chapter" then... yes please

Can one of you guys confirm the maximum quantity of VOB's allowable on a spec compliant DVD please? Because I'm sure many of the DVD's I receive contain way more than there should be!

Thankfully none of them will ever require subtitles.


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Old 3rd January 2005, 21:07   #138  |  Link
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Per titleset - 9. But you can have up to 99 titlesets (vts)
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Old 3rd January 2005, 21:32   #139  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by mpucoder
Per titleset - 9. But you can have up to 99 titlesets (vts)
No wonder some of the DVD's I receive don't work correctly in stand-alone players!


Cheers
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Old 3rd January 2005, 21:35   #140  |  Link
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Xesdeeni, this may seem like an obvious solution to your timecode issue, but you can always use an AVISynth script to generate it for you.

video = AVISource("dvsource.avi")
ShowSMPTE(video,video.framerate)

These two lines will load a video file and then display the SMPTE timecode at the bottom. You can get fancier and move it around if you want it to be within TV cropping.
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