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4th April 2009, 15:08 | #1 | Link |
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List of BD-players that play BD content on a DVD (red laser)
I'll summarize here the result of a series of tests I've made over a few weeks. I wanted to buy a BD-player that can *really* do play DVD with BD content. At least until the price for BD-R will fall down.
The complete submissions are here: 1. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...85#post1266385 2. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...87#post1266387 3. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...93#post1266393 4. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...17#post1266417 5. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...03#post1269603 So I went "hunting" an original BD that would fit the size of a DVD, with no modifications. And I burned it on a DVD, using UDS2.50 or UDF2.60 (reports are that Matsushita PC-BD-Burners use UDF2.60), with and without a CERTIFICATE folder, with and without an AUXDATA folder. The video codec was VC-1 (as Pioneer displayed the info). Original (UDF.250, no CERTIFICATE, no AUXDATA) Now the list: Panasonic - 30, 50, 35, 55, + 60, 80 Onkyo - 606 (Funai made upon Panasonic basis) Yamaha - 2900 (Panasonic basis) Denon - 1800, 2500, 3800 (all Funai made on Panasonic basis) Sharp - 20 and 21 Loewe - (it's a Sharp 20) JVC - NX-BD3 (it plays the FBI warning, but resets itself before reaching other items and it loops forever). Pioneer - 70, 71, 51, lx08, 91 Sony - 300, 500, 350, 550 Samsung - all models (about 5 or 6) LG - all models (about 3) USF 2.60 nothing changed UDF 2.50 + CERTIFICATE nothing changed New gear tested on 02.01.2010 - only UDF2.50 + CERTIFICATE Denon DVD-1800BD Funai B1M110 Harman-Kardon BDP10 - recognised the DVDR as Data disc, did not play its content even in File mode. Panasonic DMP-BD60, BD80 Pioneer BDP-120 Samsung BD-P1580, BD-P1600, HT-BD1220, HT-BD1255R, HT-BD4610, HT-BD7200 LG BD350, BD370, HB354 LG HR400 - probably (not connected to a TV) Marantz BD7004N1B Onkyo DV-BD507 - probably (not connected to a TV). Again a Funai clone Philips BDP5000 - strange as it's a Samsung clone Pioneer BCS-FS500 - probably (not connected to a TV, but sound came out) Pioneer BDP-320 Pioneer LX03BD - it's an LX08BD Pioneer LX-52 - probably (not connected to a TV) Samsung BD-P2500 - Sony BDP-S360, BDP-S5000ES, BDP-S550, BDV-IT1000, BDV-Z7 All Sonies recognised the real type of the DVDR (eg DVD+R for all DVD+Rs since I always burn them as DVD-ROM). UDF 2.50 + AUXDATA (and BACKUP/AUXDATA) Nothing changed with the players that already played the disc (). I had access only to Pioneer, Sony, Samsung. No LG this time. The Denons (1800, 2500) accepted the disc and played it as normal. Panasonic 80, Yamaha and Loewe (Sharp) did not play it. I could not check the Onkyo model as it was unconnected. The same went with Marantz. The JVC loaded the disc and played a while then it ejected the disc (was not connected to a TV so I had no input). ---===--- All the players are EU models, those currently sold in Germany (Saturn, Mediamarkt, Conrad). Since most of them were not connected to a TV I could not watch the messages they might give. However, the mere indication of "PLAY 1 0:00:35" or similar was enough to see that it works or not. I think Panasonic is doomed from this point of view (for VC-1). I assume the things are better with H.264 since Panasonic also manufactures HD-Camcorders (which are AVCHD). The ongoing test is mentioned here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...46#post1267446. Last edited by Ghitulescu; 2nd January 2010 at 12:55. Reason: Additions 02.01.2010 |
4th April 2009, 15:15 | #2 | Link |
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Therefore, since a Panasonic based player (Denon) was able to play the DVD (well, it has to have AUXDATA on it) and the Panasonic still refused it, then it's a limitation in firmware and not a limitation in hardware (Uniphier chip) as I thought initially.
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4th April 2009, 15:33 | #3 | Link |
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Thanks for the posts. I'd been thinking about getting a Panasonic in the future, but it looks instead like Pioneer becomes my first choice!
I already have the LG BH200 BD/HDDVD player and it plays everything, but it won't live forever... |
4th April 2009, 16:34 | #4 | Link |
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Greetings Ghitulescu.
Dean Kasabow has made AVCHD with 1920x1080/60P H264 video. Would you be kind enough to test it on the players at your disposal? Many thanks and best regards. http://rapidshare.com/files/216481549/AVCHD_sanyo.rar |
4th April 2009, 17:56 | #5 | Link | |
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Quote:
It's the VC-1 which poses problems, mainly because Hollywood and Panasonic&Co think that you, as a dumb/stupid/idiot consumer, do not have access to a VC-1 codec, so any VC-1 DVD might be a pirated copy of a movie. See, we are not supposed to do anything but what we are allowed (actually restricted) to do. It's a sort of Lego with very few pieces. I think that in the end, the manufacturers that do not satisfy the customer will loose. Think about DivX. Now every Markenartikel (I don't know this in English) supports it (and DivX is 99.99% pirated movies, as they say). I do not own any of these players. I want to buy one, actually I'm tending towards a Pio 51 or (if the price would be under 500€) a Denon 2500 (or 3800). My first choice would have been the 70A but it's gone for good. On the other hand, I've asked the developers of free software NOT TO ADAPT their software to Panasonic, since most other players can do it with no changes. Probably Panasonic payed a lot for favourable recensions, since almost every Panasonic customer said me that his Panny is marginally better than say a Samsung but far inferior to a Denon or Pioneer. I'm talking here about DVD performance since HDTV is about the same (I mean you won't notice a difference between Pio 91 and Sharp 20 for BD, and it's 10:1 in price - at least to my eyes). Not to mention that several reports stated that the red laser of a Panny is prone to failures in short times. I was a Matsushita fan (in the good old times!), I am a Pio fan, and I hate Sony, but Sony has one class over Panny. If you want full compatibility within a budget get a Sony. I'll have the Pio, maily because my TV is a Pio (compatibility issues). If I'll have time I will test the file you sent. No guarantee tough. One more thing, Germany is in Europe and here we have PAL and 50Hz systems. If you're in one of NTSC countries (US, Japan etc.) maybe the players are different and the result is then irrelevant. Most of EU players (and TVs) can do NTSC, but I heard that very few NTSC players (and TVs) can do PAL. One vendor really told me that US players are so cheap compared to the ones in Europe is actually due to the fact that they cannot do multistandard. |
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4th April 2009, 18:28 | #6 | Link |
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Thanks for the reply. You are doing a great service and all of us here appreciate that.
Dean's video is 60P, not the usual 60i. It's made from video taken with Sanyo HD 2000 camcorder. It will be an interesting test result. Many thanks and best regards. |
5th April 2009, 07:51 | #10 | Link |
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Before people get confused this list doesn't fit BD-RB output, only Sony, Denon 3800 and I possibly LG730 (waiting for reply) support those.
What I don't get is why the HQV dvd used for this test, which has an HDMV plays on most players but HDMV menu from BD-RB doesn't. Maybe next step to find out? Also is converting BDJ to HDMV menus a possibility? |
5th April 2009, 08:56 | #11 | Link | |
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You guys there should have a close look at this BD/DVD (it's still available) and draw the right conclusions. I never used BD-RB, TsRemux, tsMuxer or any other software, so I cannot yet check every case. I do not own yet a BD player, nor do I have BD discs. Unfortunately, the BD specifications are still not public and will never be, like those of DVD, and people must "reverse engineer" them, which seems to be somehow illegal in some countries (like in the US under DMCA). So it will take some years of experiments until a partial knowledge will be available (at least for authoring simple menu-driven discs). Good luck! |
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5th April 2009, 09:15 | #12 | Link |
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I think the secret is in the 2 .bdmv files, I don't have any idea where to start understanding them.
deank seems to know enough as his tool multiAVCHD outputs disks with menus that have no issues on players that have issues with BD-RB. Unfortunately I don't think it will be fixed until someone comes along with enough knowledge of the bdmv files, owns a player that has issues, and has time to work on it. |
5th April 2009, 09:30 | #13 | Link |
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It is not just the bdmv files... There really is some limitation when it comes to DVD media and/or AVCHD.
For example BD players seem to ignore certain commands in movieobject.bdmv when using the red-laser mode. For example my PS3 won't execute 'setsecondarystream' and won't show PIP window if content is on DVD and recognized as AVCHD. On the other hand if index.bdmv is changed to Blu-ray - PS3 won't accept the disc at all, but PC players show the PIP properly... I believe there are hardware/firmware limitations that we cannot overcome simply by changing 'things' in bdmv. And about your question in another thread - no, there is no way to convert java menus to hdmv. They can be re-written by a programmer from scratch, but not auto-converted. |
5th April 2009, 09:52 | #14 | Link |
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Outside of other issues do you think editing the original bdmv files (what BD-RB uses) in such a way would allow the current players with issues to at least make it to a menu?
Does the PIP issue involve anything outside of an occasional extra? like menus? Do you mean BDJ to HDMV could never be done with set code? |
5th April 2009, 10:01 | #15 | Link |
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May be it is possible to somehow edit bdmv files... The PIP was just an example of navigation-command ignored... and it is a functionality that roman added in tsmuxer after a request of mine to overcome the cropped-video problem and center it while playback. I don't know what other nav-commands are ignored, too.
HDMV is really limited programming interface compared to BD-J and I doubt anyone can create a tool to make a conversion without user/programmer intervention. |
5th April 2009, 10:05 | #16 | Link | |
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Besides PS3 is not a BD-player but a BD play-enabled game-console , to promote the BD format. Since it's "re"programmable, unlike the regular players, PS3 should not be used in testing BD movies. My opinion ... |
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5th April 2009, 10:09 | #17 | Link |
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Well, PS3 is BD player - it is not some weird hybrid. It is a game console, but the bdplayer part is a standard one. FW updates are possible for all BD players.
Moreover PS3 supports the latest profile 2.0 Bd-Live... something missing in many SAPs. Last edited by deank; 5th April 2009 at 10:15. |
5th April 2009, 10:20 | #18 | Link |
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Plus PS3 is by far the most popular BD player currently.
Lower BD SAP prices will change this eventually. I do agree it's not the greatest testing rig for retail menus on DVD5/9 though especially a PAL PS3 which seems to play menus that even the NTSC PS3's don't. The pickiest player such as Samsung 1600 would be optimal, although it may be limited so much as that it won't play anything. Maybe the Panasonic BD60 or Samsung 1500 would be a better tester. |
5th April 2009, 14:29 | #19 | Link | |
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I was thinking of a sort of PC + WinDVD BD on it. PS3 is in fact a sort of PC (different architecture though) and there is a hard+soft implementation of BD. PS3 does not have a dedicated chip for BD as SAPs do, this is what I meant, one can reprogram it (entierely software) whenever it might be the need for. This versatility is what I contest for a testing device. One cannot use a "changeable" device for testing, because one cannot compare the tests! Again, the most pickier devices I've met in my life were the Toshibas. They were absolute conform to standards. That's why I was using a SCSI CDROM from Toshiba for testing the burned CD (years ago ) and a SCSI DVDROM for DVDs. Too bad Toshiba does not manufacture BD-players or readers. |
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5th April 2009, 14:40 | #20 | Link |
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I don't take it personally... I think I made a great choice buying a PS3 few years ago, as it proves to be a good player to a lot of different content. The exception is with these DVDs with BD content.
I think it would've been a waste of $$ and space on PS3's MB to add a chip specifically for BD playback. After all BD playback is just mix of reading BD discs - program segments to handle its contents - visualisation. It is all programs stored in FW - be it PS3's one or SAP's. Sony is a licensee so no need to pay for someone's chip with BD caps nor use its own chips (designated for Sony SAPs). A bad thing in PS3 is that any FW update may disable/screw things we now enjoy (as the relaxed AVCHD support) and with a SAP you may never update your FW if all is okay. But we're getting out of topic. PS3 has limitations (as of this moment) when playing (officially unsupported) BD content written in AVCHD structures on a DVD disc. |
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