madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Page 688

dansrfe · 22nd August 2012, 20:12

I feel like we need to have an IRC channel for madVR. #madVR

Mangix · 22nd August 2012, 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderbolt8

what is recommended for madvr, leaving vsync to application controlled in CCC settings or rather change it to always on?

application controlled

Valdy · 23rd August 2012, 09:56

Hi, i'm new to this forum and madvr. Is there a way to take advantage of my 10-bit display with regular (8-bit) blu-ray movies? I think something like 8-bit -> 10-bit on the fly conversion. Is this possible?
Anyway, every movie i have displays like this: h264(or vc-1) 8 bit 4:2:0 -> NV12 8-bit 4:2:0. Is this correct? Or is there a way to improve things?

Thanks.

Trib · 23rd August 2012, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valdy

Hi, i'm new to this forum and madvr. Is there a way to take advantage of my 10-bit display with regular (8-bit) blu-ray movies? I think something like 8-bit -> 10-bit on the fly conversion. Is this possible?
Anyway, every movie i have displays like this: h264(or vc-1) 8 bit 4:2:0 -> NV12 8-bit 4:2:0. Is this correct? Or is there a way to improve things?

Thanks.

From what I've understood from reading these threads is that a conversion from 8-bit -> 10-bit would just degrade the image quality and not make it better as 8-bit files should be played as 8-bit and 10-bit as 10-bit.

So yes, h264(or vc-1) 8 bit 4:2:0 -> NV12 8-bit 4:2:0 is correct.

vivan · 23rd August 2012, 13:36

"8 bit 4:2:0 -> NV12 8-bit 4:2:0" has nothing to do with output to display. It means that decoder decodes 8 bit 4:2:0 and ouputs it in 8 bit 4:2:0 format to madVR.
"conversion from 8-bit -> 10-bit" on that step can't hurt anything, because it's just adding zeros. However there's also no reasons to do this.

nevcairiel · 23rd August 2012, 16:37

Not to mention that a) madVR has no 10-bit output support, and b) only professional-grade GPUs support it (and those are pricey)

Valdy · 23rd August 2012, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

Not to mention that a) madVR has no 10-bit output support, and b) only professional-grade GPUs support it (and those are pricey)

According to amd tech support, radeons can do 10-bit on displayport, hdmi and dual dvi.

Anyway, thanks for the answer for everyone.

strumf666 · 23rd August 2012, 19:42

According to my projector, 6870 I had and 7750 I have connects with 10bit. Using hdmi in both cases.

Valdy · 23rd August 2012, 21:02

Under scaling algorithms, spline 4 taps is the best for image quality?

makakam · 23rd August 2012, 21:22

I've read that panasonic vt30 doesn't have full 4 4 4 reproduction but it subsamples it, so the question is should I still use 4 4 4 pixel format or ycbcr 4 2 2 with madvr?

nevcairiel · 23rd August 2012, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by strumf666

According to my projector, 6870 I had and 7750 I have connects with 10bit. Using hdmi in both cases.

The signal may be 10-bit, but your PC only renders 8-bit. Its artificial limitation mostly to get people to buy Quadro or FirePro cards when they need 10-bit for professional graphics work.

strumf666 · 23rd August 2012, 22:41

Hm, what's the point in encoding movies in 10bit then? I am not saying I don't believe you, but needing a 500€ graphics card to play some movies is a ridiculous.

detmek · 23rd August 2012, 22:55

Up to 20% better compression for same quality and no color banding. That is good reason to encode using 10-bit encoder even if source is 8-bit.

dukey · 24th August 2012, 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

The signal may be 10-bit, but your PC only renders 8-bit. Its artificial limitation mostly to get people to buy Quadro or FirePro cards when they need 10-bit for professional graphics work.

I've worked a lot with quadro and other 'professional' cards
I know some years ago you could actually unlock consumer cards to turn them into quadros.

nevcairiel · 24th August 2012, 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by strumf666

Hm, what's the point in encoding movies in 10bit then? I am not saying I don't believe you, but needing a 500€ graphics card to play some movies is a ridiculous.

You don't need a 10-bit card to play 10-bit content. With proper dithering and a good screen, you won't see much of a difference.

In any case, 99% of all 10-bit encodes are not "real" 10-bit content.
10-bit encoding is only used because it can achieve better compression.

pie1394 · 24th August 2012, 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by detmek

Up to 20% better compression for same quality and no color banding. That is good reason to encode using 10-bit encoder even if source is 8-bit.

I guess it could be a fact that 2 extra bits in color resolution just produces less quantization error for quarter-pel type ME/MC+DCT process.

For the quarter-pel motion-estimation mode, the pixel value could be taken from quartered-sub-pixel position. So it needs 10-bits to represent accurate sub-pixel value from 8-bit source pixel. After the most closest image is found, the residue color difference is processed by Forward DCT.

Yet the fDCT process also needs at least 29-bit temporary data bit resolution for fixed-point data representation. (10-bit input pixel + 16-bit coefficient + 3-bit 8-tap inner-product operation)

So do the motion-compensation + iDCT process.

G_M_C · 24th August 2012, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

You don't need a 10-bit card to play 10-bit content. With proper dithering and a good screen, you won't see much of a difference.

In any case, 99% of all 10-bit encodes are not "real" 10-bit content.
10-bit encoding is only used because it can achieve better compression.

Afaik, you can force 10-bit out on (some?) AMD cards. The option has been in MPC-HT.

Andy o · 24th August 2012, 15:39

The "10-bit" option in MPC-HC is for the processing of its EVR renderers, much the same as madVR does "16-bit".

nlnl · 24th August 2012, 16:11

madshi
When madvr renders this sample it detects 3:3 cadence and switches to 23.976 display refresh rate in film mode.
I guess it should switch to 59.94 for this 3:3 cadence?

The sample is silent film and original frame rate is 21.4 fps http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018737/.

The sample: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43376972/Pandora%203-3%20cadence.mkv

Edit:
So if original frame rate is funny 21.4 fps, they should transfer this silent film this way:
21.4 fps -> 19,98p (59,94/3) -> 59,94i (2:2:2 cadence) ?

oddball · 25th August 2012, 20:33

I don't know if Madshi is still working on MadVR (been a while since any updates?). But was wondering what he and others thought of this.

http://darbeevision.com/
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1410383/darbee-darblet
http://darbeevision.com/assets/documents/DarbeeVision%20Whitepaper%20with%20Tech%20Details%2020120415.pdf

23rd August 2012, 16:37	#13746 \| Link
nevcairiel Registered Developer Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Hamburg/Germany Posts: 10,348	Not to mention that a) madVR has no 10-bit output support, and b) only professional-grade GPUs support it (and those are pricey) __________________ LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders

24th August 2012, 15:39	#13758 \| Link
Andy o Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 962	The "10-bit" option in MPC-HC is for the processing of its EVR renderers, much the same as madVR does "16-bit". __________________ MSI MAG X570 TOMAHAWK WIFI, Ryzen 5900x, RTX 3070, Win 10-64. Pioneer VSX-LX503, LG OLED65C9

24th August 2012, 16:11	#13759 \| Link
nlnl Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 176	madshi When madvr renders this sample it detects 3:3 cadence and switches to 23.976 display refresh rate in film mode. I guess it should switch to 59.94 for this 3:3 cadence? The sample is silent film and original frame rate is 21.4 fps http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018737/. The sample: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43376972/Pandora%203-3%20cadence.mkv Edit: So if original frame rate is funny 21.4 fps, they should transfer this silent film this way: 21.4 fps -> 19,98p (59,94/3) -> 59,94i (2:2:2 cadence) ? Last edited by nlnl; 24th August 2012 at 17:44.

22nd August 2012, 20:12	#13741 \| Link
dansrfe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,210	I feel like we need to have an IRC channel for madVR. #madVR

23rd August 2012, 09:56	#13743 \| Link
Valdy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 6	Hi, i'm new to this forum and madvr. Is there a way to take advantage of my 10-bit display with regular (8-bit) blu-ray movies? I think something like 8-bit -> 10-bit on the fly conversion. Is this possible? Anyway, every movie i have displays like this: h264(or vc-1) 8 bit 4:2:0 -> NV12 8-bit 4:2:0. Is this correct? Or is there a way to improve things? Thanks.

23rd August 2012, 13:36	#13745 \| Link
vivan /人 ◕ ‿‿ ◕ 人\ Join Date: May 2011 Location: Russia Posts: 643	"8 bit 4:2:0 -> NV12 8-bit 4:2:0" has nothing to do with output to display. It means that decoder decodes 8 bit 4:2:0 and ouputs it in 8 bit 4:2:0 format to madVR. "conversion from 8-bit -> 10-bit" on that step can't hurt anything, because it's just adding zeros. However there's also no reasons to do this.

23rd August 2012, 19:42	#13748 \| Link
strumf666 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 106	According to my projector, 6870 I had and 7750 I have connects with 10bit. Using hdmi in both cases.

23rd August 2012, 21:02	#13749 \| Link
Valdy Registered User Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 6	Under scaling algorithms, spline 4 taps is the best for image quality?

23rd August 2012, 21:22	#13750 \| Link
makakam Registered User Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 60	I've read that panasonic vt30 doesn't have full 4 4 4 reproduction but it subsamples it, so the question is should I still use 4 4 4 pixel format or ycbcr 4 2 2 with madvr?

23rd August 2012, 22:41	#13752 \| Link
strumf666 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 106	Hm, what's the point in encoding movies in 10bit then? I am not saying I don't believe you, but needing a 500€ graphics card to play some movies is a ridiculous.

23rd August 2012, 22:55	#13753 \| Link
detmek Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 463	Up to 20% better compression for same quality and no color banding. That is good reason to encode using 10-bit encoder even if source is 8-bit.

25th August 2012, 20:33	#13760 \| Link
oddball Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,264	I don't know if Madshi is still working on MadVR (been a while since any updates?). But was wondering what he and others thought of this. http://darbeevision.com/ http://www.avsforum.com/t/1410383/darbee-darblet http://darbeevision.com/assets/documents/DarbeeVision%20Whitepaper%20with%20Tech%20Details%2020120415.pdf