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6th April 2018, 20:27 | #50102 | Link |
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Isn't that what both "process HDR content by using pixel shader math" and "process HDR content by using an external 3DLUT" are for? At least as far as it can go, you cannot tell the display to turn off its tone mapping. However, you do get some of the benefits from madVR's superior tone mapping, or DisplayCal's when using a 3DLUT, and you can set the metadata so you can influence the display's tone mapping.
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6th April 2018, 20:54 | #50103 | Link | |
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System is in Win10 64 bits. The installation included lav32bits, reclock32bits, mpc-be32bits and madVR. Linked to the issue with CPU 4k hevc decoding (multiple drop with "queue decoder" at 1 while CPU is not above 40% of usage), player potplayer64 bits has been installed without any other modification and fixed the problem. Lav is still in 32 bits. Reclok also (of course) It seems to work fine. i was surprised. Question is : in this case, what is the mode used by madVR (32 or 64 bits) ? Last edited by Polopretress; 6th April 2018 at 21:00. |
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6th April 2018, 22:28 | #50106 | Link | |
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 6th April 2018 at 22:34. |
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6th April 2018, 22:46 | #50107 | Link |
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No, you are not stuck in SDR mode. You set the metadata with madTPG (madVR when the 3DLUT is used), measure the display as it responds given that metadata, and construct the 3DLUT based on that. For best results I have found you really need a 3DLUT for every movie, this can be done with DisplayCal's 3DLUT creating utility but it is a bit crazy. Because the TV is always in the same mode you only need to profile once but given that the mastering display's peak white and the video's peak white both influence the 3DLUT most videos would use a different 3DLUT. That said I get decent results as long as the peak whites for the 3DLUT are higher than the peak white in the video (if not they clip generating nasty banding artifacts).
What we need is pixel shader math that takes the source's metadata into account to convert to a specific set of metadata and then send that through an HDR 3DLUT. If that makes sense?
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7th April 2018, 03:18 | #50108 | Link |
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Ha, nice one...You sneaky little developer....
Where there some performance improvements? Because for me its like an early birthday present cause i can use NGU Medium now and still be under 20ms. Before i could only use NGU Low. Im impressed..I also think i did understand the whole MadVR now..what each setting does,, how it works, etc.. Using and understanding MadVR is like a study Project at the University, it took me allmost 5 years to figure it all out.. And i learned so freaking much about Video processing and upscaling filters, etc etc.. Everytime theres a new version, i get sweaty hands and start to test and fiddle wich each setting to see whats changed and such, and when iim finished i allways wonder where the Time did go..Its easy for me to get lost for hours while fiddling around with your awesome Programm.. Damn, nothing, really nothing comes close to the quality of MadVR.. Ever since i started using madvr i wondered what all the TVīs use for up and downscaling, because it looks soo bad.. anyway, what i wanted to say to you @madshi, THANK you for all youve done, and thank you for sparking my interesst in this area, this is kinda my hobby now, setting up Home cinemas for my friends haha.. have a good night Last edited by BetA13; 7th April 2018 at 03:27. |
7th April 2018, 08:09 | #50110 | Link |
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Hi Madshi, nice to have you back and thank you for all the hard work !!
I have an issue with a few PAL-SD files in the following configuration: -> MPC-BE + LAV (Hardware device to use: Automatic(Native)) + MadVR => File plays normally for a few seconds then screen turns completely green !! File keeps playing and I hear sound. -> MPC-BE + LAV (Hardware device to use: (GPU selected)) + MadVR => File plays normally Unfortunately I can' keep this configuration because the drop in performance is too big for 4K. Not that important but maybe you could look into this when you have the time. Thx !! |
7th April 2018, 08:53 | #50111 | Link |
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As a workaround there is always the option to disable HW acceleration for SD files, any half-competent CPU should be able to decode that. Of course it would be best if madshi can figure out whats going wrong with D3D11-Native there, but he may need a sample file that fails for you.
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7th April 2018, 09:11 | #50112 | Link | |
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madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)
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7th April 2018, 10:25 | #50113 | Link |
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A general question about achieving proper 24p cadence:
I recently realized after discussing it with someone else that neither 24 Hz nor Smooth Motion is required to achieve proper cadence with modern TVs/projectors. That's because they are capable of automatically recovering a 24p signal from a 24p@60Hz (3:2 pulldown) input, i.e. they are capable of IVTC/decimation. Rtings calls this "Judder-Free 24p via 60p". In theory, if the TV does this right, the process is completely lossless and one has no reason to expect any loss in quality compared to "native" 24p@24Hz. Of course this still leaves open the issue of audio/video clock mismatch when playing from a PC, causing random hiccups. AFAICT, this can be solved using ReClock or similar (which will "nudge" the clock towards perfect 3:2 pulldown cadence with no discontinuities), or by using custom modes to achieve perfect audio-clock-synchronized 59.940 Hz, which is easier than trying to achieve perfect 23.976 Hz (higher numbers mean higher relative precision). I don't have a modern TV/projector to test this on right now, but I'm curious about this approach. Has anyone tried it? Are there downsides that I'm missing? This seems interesting to me because this setup is more user-friendly - no need to switch between 24 Hz and 60 Hz when playing video. Also, I seem to remember madshi saying at some point that madVR is not designed to generate a "perfect" 3:2 pulldown cadence when playing 24p@60Hz, which would prevent this solution from working. Is that true? |
7th April 2018, 10:37 | #50114 | Link |
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this is mostly for interlanced content and you can't get the interlaced content out untouched using a PC.
this often doesn't work in PC mode. it will obviously increase input lag and you need some kind of motion interpolation. as far as i know madVR is fine by repeating frame and really bad when it comes to show like 50 FPS at 25 HZ. |
7th April 2018, 10:40 | #50115 | Link | |
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Interesting, thanks. Makes sense. No. When Rtings tests for 24p recovery from 60 Hz their protocol states "we never use interpolation during these tests". Okay, that's good news then. Last edited by e-t172; 7th April 2018 at 10:45. |
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7th April 2018, 10:50 | #50116 | Link | ||
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It works for both 60i and 60p.
i said mostly Quote:
as i said you need >some kind of motion interpolation< Quote:
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7th April 2018, 11:04 | #50117 | Link | |
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When in this mode, the TV will display in 24p by discarding identical frames. The TV can discard a frame as soon as it gets it because it knows which frames are redundant and when a new 24p frame starts - it knows the cadence. I would expect the minimum required input lag to be around 16 ms (one 60 Hz frame). What's more, 48 ms input lag is actually very typical of TVs when used in 60 Hz outside "low input lag" mode. It's not a concern for video playback as the lag can be compensated on the audio side. (Although I agree it's a concern in "dual use" scenarios where the TV is used for gaming as well.) Decimation/IVTC (which is what the TV is doing in this case) has nothing to do with motion interpolation at all. It's not trying to compute motion vectors or anything like that, it's just decimating frames that are identical, which is a much simpler operation, and can be lossless when done correctly. |
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7th April 2018, 11:20 | #50118 | Link | ||||
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ok we detected a 3:2 judder let's hold playback until we have enough frames buffered to do IVTC? no you have to run it all the time or not at all. Quote:
and if you do this you will still get a 3:2 judder the complicated part of IVTC is the frame time correction. if you just discard frames the frame times will stay the same meaning a with a 3:2 source it will take 48 ms before the next frame come that only shown for 32 ms but both needs to be shown for about 42 ms. Quote:
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7th April 2018, 11:45 | #50119 | Link |
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You don't need to delay anything when decimating 60 fps to 24 fps, you just throw away some frames in between. This is not like encoded 30 fps IVTC content where you get fields that need re-combining into frames. Its full frames on a 3:2 repeat pattern.
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7th April 2018, 12:01 | #50120 | Link | |||||
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Even if they're not, any IVTC algorithm worth its salt will not assume they are identical. Instead it will compute some kind of difference metric (such as simple RMS) to provide at least some resilience to noise. And again, please keep in mind that duplicate detection is only used to detect cadence changes. Once you know the cadence, you don't need to do any measurements to know which frames should be discarded and which should be kept. Quote:
The only case where you incur massive input lag is if you want to detect cadence changes in advance so that you can seamlessly transition from one cadence to the next. That indeed requires you to look far into the future. About 10 years ago I wrote my own IVTC filter that did something like that, and I believe that's also how madVR IVTC works to some extent. The video player can afford to do that because it can preprocess frames in advance; the TV can't. But that's only a "nice to have", not a requirement, especially for high-quality 60p. You can do without it as long as you're not after perfect transitions between different cadences, which is really not a problem for the scenario that this discussion is about (stable 24p@60Hz). Quote:
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Oh so we trust the terminology used in TV OSD menus now? Since when? Last edited by e-t172; 7th April 2018 at 13:56. |
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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