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Old 25th January 2018, 13:50   #48641  |  Link
j82k
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I just tried pretty much all available 10/12 bit modes again and I still think full RGB 8-bit gives me the best gradients for hdr videos. LG 55C6V, Nvidia 1050ti with latest drivers.


Nvidia full RGB 8-bit, madVR 8-bit


Nvidia YCbCr444 12-bit, madVR 10-bit


Playing the test pattern directly to the TV via USB gives me the same worse result as on PC using 10/12 bit so I don't think theres anything wrong with my setup. Gonna stick with full RGB 8-bit.
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Old 25th January 2018, 14:01   #48642  |  Link
mclingo
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right then, nice to have to objective evidence, i'll see how 444 8 bit goes then, cheers.

One thing I do prefer with 444 is BTB/WTW which isnt achievable with 420, test pattern looks much better on my OLED with BTW/WTW, the gradients are smoother at the bottom end.
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Old 25th January 2018, 15:53   #48643  |  Link
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I have an objective answer. You misunderstand one important piece of criteria. HDMI 2.0 doesn't support RGB Full 444 above 30Hz but it does support it under 30Hz.
8-bit 4K 60Hz RGB Full works great with HDMI 2.0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
There are those that feel mismatching frame rate of the original source and bumping it to 60Hz for some unknown reason and then using an algo to try and smooth out the mismatch as much as possible is a better idea. I really don't understand what the higher resolution offers them for what they give up but that's another discussion.
Only if your TV is not good at 24p or you don't like switching refresh rates is 60Hz with smooth motion better. A tuned 23.976 Hz refresh rate is ideal and no one argues this point, expect users of SVP or similar.

Personally I like smooth motion and a 60Hz desktop so I don't have to wait for refresh rate changes but I do believe a proper matched refresh rate is better.

I am not sure what resolution has to do with it? Are you saying the motion clarity is noticably worse with 60Hz with smooth motion compared to a perfectly matched refresh rate, because that is not true, and even if it was the resolution in non-moving scenes is still there. There is already so much motion blur in 24p content that smooth motion doesn't really add any.
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Old 25th January 2018, 16:54   #48644  |  Link
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I am not sure what resolution has to do with it? Are you saying the motion clarity is noticably worse with 60Hz with smooth motion compared to a perfectly matched refresh rate, because that is not true, and even if it was the resolution in non-moving scenes is still there. There is already so much motion blur in 24p content that smooth motion doesn't really add any.
Personally I prefer a 72hz over 60hz and smooth motion, smooth motion is nowhere near close a tuned refresh rate...The blur is way too much. The difference between them is big.
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Old 25th January 2018, 18:56   #48645  |  Link
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@Asmodian. Sorry. Since the entire discussion was about 8bit vs 10bit or higher depending on resolution Hz, thought it went without saying, so rephrasing for better understanding:
HDMI 2.0 doesn't support RGB Full 444 above 30Hz with 10bit or higher color depth but it does support 10bit or higher under 30Hz.

Waiting for the display to match the refresh rate of the title takes all of about 1 second at the beginning of playback and once again at the end of playback. It doesn't bother me but I understand it does others. Once I tried forcing 60Hz for a 23.976 title and using 'smooth motion' algo to see what the improvement was (before understanding those with 60Hz don't really have any other choice). Blur and judder was terrible. I know you say there should be no difference and respect your opinion and how you arrive at your deductions but this is simply my experience. Matching refresh rate has always been very pleasant and smooth as butter for me. My present 4k display is true native 120Hz as was my previous 1080 (both Samsungs). Judder during panning scenes is a pet peeve of mine over any other irregularities. I simply will never own a display under 120Hz and fwiw, both displays advertise as 240Hz using interpolation which I find even more attractive since imo, (through interpolation) adds to the sharpness, clarity, and realism many deem fake and full of miscalculated frames although I've have NEVER experienced those claims.
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Old 25th January 2018, 19:45   #48646  |  Link
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A little question.

Why any mkv3d is displayed in 2D?
I tried any kind of settings in both player (MPCHC) and Madvr.
With my old Popcorn player the film are perfectly reproduced in 3d.

thanks
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Old 25th January 2018, 22:09   #48647  |  Link
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That's a big question you ask without providing any info. We can't guess what you are not doing correctly. Perhaps if you list the things you have done and everything else pertinent like the hardware you are using, we can point out your mistake(s). That's if they are related to madVR otherwise you're in the wrong forum and another such as the one in my signature might be more appropriate.
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Last edited by brazen1; 25th January 2018 at 22:18.
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Old 25th January 2018, 22:31   #48648  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
That's a big question you ask without providing any info. We can't guess what you are not doing correctly. Perhaps if you list the things you have done and everything else pertinent like the hardware you are using, we can point out your mistake(s).
I have created mk3D file using makemkv.
The file is created correctly because it exctract Mpeg4-3D track
My stand alone player play it correctly with 3D activated.
MadVr not, play it as a normal 2D film.
Is Madvr compatibe with mk3d SBS files?
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Old 26th January 2018, 00:07   #48649  |  Link
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Yes. We're more interested in what I suggested you provide such as:
Did you enable 3D in madVR?
Did you install LAV filters with the optional 3D part of the download?
Did you enable 3D system wide in your O/S?
What kind of GPU are you using and did you enable 3D driver settings or not?
What software player are you using and is its 3D settings enabled correctly?
Make certain stereoscopic in your GPU and your O/S are enabled prior to playback testing.

This is the madVR software forum. If there is a specific problem using madVR that contributes to your loss of 3D, we will be happy to assist you. If your problem is a combination of other difficulty areas, this is not the forum to seek assistance because when you go off topic it is troublesome for others. Provide the settings you are using in madVR. If they are wrong, we will tell you. If not, then they are correct and you should seek more answers elsewhere since the problem will be attributed to something different. I provided a small list of things to check. I can tell you, 3D is working correctly when using madVR and 3D problems usually begin in another software and/or its settings.
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Last edited by brazen1; 26th January 2018 at 00:18.
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Old 26th January 2018, 00:09   #48650  |  Link
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You need the Intel Media SDK plugin for decoding 3D H.264 MVC video. This plugin will be used by LAV Video decoder.

MadVR handles SBS video as 2D. Your TV should have an option to turn it into 3D.
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Old 26th January 2018, 00:28   #48651  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feelingblue View Post
I have created mk3D file using makemkv.
The file is created correctly because it exctract Mpeg4-3D track
My stand alone player play it correctly with 3D activated.
MadVr not, play it as a normal 2D film.
Is Madvr compatibe with mk3d SBS files?
Hi, lots of variables in playing stuff in 3D MVC frame packed mode, some have already touched on this.

What you've given us is like walking into the Doctors, stating you have a problem and then expecting an accurate diagnosis based on that alone.

Give us a full breakdown of what system you have, what settings you've enabled and what hardware / win software etc you have.

or try this, this how I always set mine up for testing as I know it works, other dont use filters externally but I prefer this method so you are always using the latest versions.

1. Install MPC-HC (easiest to configure for testing)
2. add the latest LAV filters as external filters - 1x audio 1x video 2x splitter - set to prefer
3. untick internal source and transform filters
4. set madvr back to defaults, (you can dial in your own preferences for scaling etc once its working again)
5. turn on all stereo 3d options in MADVR - (4 ticks)
6. Turn on FSE (full screen exclusive mode)
7. Set MPC to open in full screen but make sure autochange monitor mode is unticked.
9. set MADVR as your renderer in MPC
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Old 26th January 2018, 00:46   #48652  |  Link
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MPC-HC 1.7.14 (includes latest LAV Filters)
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:02   #48653  |  Link
jasonwc18
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Instructions for generating a BT.2020 3DLUT

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwc18 View Post
madshi,

Would you mind clarifying how to go about generating a 3D LUT for BT.2020 content mastered to the DCI-P3 colorspace (basically all UHD Blu-Rays thus far)? You mentioned before that DCI-P3 within a BT.2020 container is basically just DCI-P3. However, if I try to generate a 3DLUT for DCI-P3, wouldn't that result in wrong colors since my projector can only accept BT.2020? I've already generated a 3DLUT for D65/Gamma 2.4/Rec.709 with excellent results. I also did a quick manual calibration of SDR D65/Gamma 2.4/BT.2020 which gives pretty good gamma, greyscale and color tracking through 60-70% saturation, as expected, since the projector can't display higher. I plan to use this mode with madvr's HDR --> SDR tone mapping feature. However, I'm at a loss for how to generate a BT.2020 3D LUT. Both DisplayCal and Calman seem to target 100% saturation within BT.2020, which no current display technology can display. Is what I am trying to achieve currently possible? I've done some research online and all the guides for 3D LUT generation refer to Rec.709.
I'm going to answer my own question because I got some very helpful information from the developer of DisplayCal that answers all my questions. That discussion can be found here: DisplayCal Forum

A TLDR version is this. If you want to generate a 3D LUT for displaying 4K Blu-Ray content tonemapped with madvr (pretty much all 4K BDs use 10 bit color, BT.2020 colorspace, and HDR10):

1) Create the 3DLUT for the BT.2020 colorspace and a gamma of your choice. Using DCI-P3 will give incorrect results.

2) It doesn't matter if the TV/projector is unable to display the entirety of BT.2020 (which is going to be true of basically all displays at this time). The profiler will figure out the limits of your display and generate a 3D LUT accordingly. Calman allows you to limit saturation sweeps to DCI-P3, but this is only useful for manual calibration and/or validation.

3) madVR always uses TV levels (16-235) for the 3D LUT encoding. Calman gives an option to set output to PC levels (0-255) but DisplayCal only shows TV levels as an option. The developer says that the 3D LUT should work fine with PC Levels so long as you set madvr and Windows to output PC levels.

Given what I was told, it should be possible to generate a working 3D LUT for BT.2020 with either DisplayCal/ArgylCMS or Calman. There are other options, but these are the two I investigated.

One more tip: If you have an existing BT.709 3D LUT but no 3D LUT in the BT.2020 or DCI-P3 slots, and you want to watch BT.2020 content, you'll need to set madvr to "This Display is Already Calibrated" for BT.2020 and the Gamma you are using. Otherwise, madvr will try to use the BT.709 3D LUT resulting in oversaturated and incorrect colors (at least it does for me as I require a different mode with a color filter for BT.2020 on my JVC RS600). If you have a 3DLUT in either the DCI-P3 or BT.2020 slot, this will be used instead.

Last edited by jasonwc18; 26th January 2018 at 01:20.
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:04   #48654  |  Link
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Waiting for the display to match the refresh rate of the title takes all of about 1 second at the beginning of playback and once again at the end of playback. It doesn't bother me but I understand it does others. Once I tried forcing 60Hz for a 23.976 title and using 'smooth motion' algo to see what the improvement was (before understanding those with 60Hz don't really have any other choice). Blur and judder was terrible. I know you say there should be no difference and respect your opinion and how you arrive at your deductions but this is simply my experience. Matching refresh rate has always been very pleasant and smooth as butter for me. My present 4k display is true native 120Hz as was my previous 1080 (both Samsungs). Judder during panning scenes is a pet peeve of mine over any other irregularities. I simply will never own a display under 120Hz and fwiw, both displays advertise as 240Hz using interpolation which I find even more attractive since imo, (through interpolation) adds to the sharpness, clarity, and realism many deem fake and full of miscalculated frames although I've have NEVER experienced those claims.
i hope you didn't forget to disable frame interpolation with SM because SM and frame interpolation will nearly for sure turn into a mess. which alone is enough of a reason for some user to never ever use it.

and if you want to see frame interpolation artifacts just watch a corner of your TV in an action scene it often has to interpolate images without an reference. even through i have to say how can you not notice all these calculations error 3 jointed arms and legs....

a sceen that can't do 23p properly will usually be smooth when frame interpoaltion is engaged and there are screen that can do 23p properly with a 60 hz sony has no problem with that.

and i just repeate my self here again Samsung TV usually can't do 4:4:4 at any other refreshrate as 30 or 60 hz.
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Old 26th January 2018, 01:35   #48655  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
@Asmodian. Sorry. Since the entire discussion was about 8bit vs 10bit or higher depending on resolution Hz, thought it went without saying, so rephrasing for better understanding:
HDMI 2.0 doesn't support RGB Full 444 above 30Hz with 10bit or higher color depth but it does support 10bit or higher under 30Hz.
I was trying to point out the pointless fixating on getting 10bit output when it really is the least important aspect. To the point of using subsampled chroma, pure madness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I simply will never own a display under 120Hz and fwiw, both displays advertise as 240Hz using interpolation which I find even more attractive since imo, (through interpolation) adds to the sharpness, clarity, and realism many deem fake and full of miscalculated frames although I've have NEVER experienced those claims.
I even said matching refresh rates is better. I am not trying to claim smooth motion is just as good, only that it is quite close. Smooth motion breaks any TV's motion enhancements so maybe the native 24Hz studder (especially obvious during pans) is bothering you, not true judder (because smooth motion takes care of that very well). Have you compared 24Hz to 60 Hz with smooth motion with all your TV's processing disabled for both tests? Maybe smooth motion confused your TV's processing so it made the judder even worse (I have seen it happen). Not that you should use it, just you might see why it doesn't bother me too much.

I don't think you have a true 120Hz TV. Samsung's TVs accept up to 60Hz and then in internal processing decide which frames to multiply or interpolate extra frames from. If it isn't madVR presenting the frames and the TV displaying them 1:1 then it is not the true refresh rate. Samsung processing is known to have pretty bad handling of some content. I suppose some true 120Hz 1080p TVs may exist now, e.g. my OLED can take a true 120 Hz input but only at 1080p, but when 120 Hz 4K displays are actually available I will be very happy.

It is funny how some issues bother some people a lot and others not at all. Frame interpolation is not my friend, interpolation artifacts bother me way too much, but 24Hz studder is only a minor annoyance.

I want to see each frame of the source as presented and I always disable as much of the TV's internal processing as possible. All motion clarity enhancements are always disabled. LG doesn't have great processing anyway.
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Old 26th January 2018, 03:57   #48656  |  Link
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Ok. I turned off motion in display settings so its processing doesn't interfere with madVR's. Checked GPU is at 60Hz. Turned off switch to matching display mode in madVR. Enabled smooth motion frame rate conversion for output above 24fps to always. At this point hoping upgrades of GPU drivers, madVR, W10, MPC-BE and LAV will have a different outcome than the last time I did this (not that I need it). I play Cowboys and Aliens opening long pan scene. It's a one to one iso rip. I check display notification no longer shows 3840x2160p at 24Hz and now shows 60Hz. No difference. The blur and judder are unwatchable to me because I'm spoiled, never experiencing it using my regular setup. Put everything back and it's all smooth as butter. No idea why your experiences are better but for sure, mine are night and day differences. I wouldn't go as far as saying Samsung processing is superior but these are my results. Perhaps madVR smooth motion works best with 60Hz displays and with 120Hz doesn't? I don't know? Madshi would. I don't think it should matter.

Yes, my display is 120Hz and not 60Hz. You keep telling me using motion interpolation aka phoney 240Hz, I'm seeing 2 headed people with 7 arms, 3 legs, 11 fingers, and 3 eyes. Oh and to confirm by looking in the corners. Again, I respect you and your opinions and all but that's simply not the case. Samsung is known for very good motion. I know you disagree. Maybe you got a peeve with Samsung or something but I'm honestly telling you the truth. I have nothing to gain. I wish you could sit in front of this set for 20 minutes and have your mind blown to be honest.

Quick google search not including anything from Samsung unless these reviews are liars too:

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sa...s7000/settings
Do you think the JS7000 is better at 60Hz native, full array LED, or the JS8500 with 120Hz native and Edge-lit LED?
Between the two TVs, the JS8500 have a better picture quality. 120Hz will allow judder-free 24p

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/js8500
this is the best TV we've seen for watching sports, partly because you get very little blur, which is ideal for the quick pace of sporting events.

The response time is very fast. We measured it at 11.9 ms on our Samsung UN55JS8500. Motion blur is not a problem on this TV.

There is no judder in movies when using a 24p source (like a Blu-ray player). Sometimes it can do the reverse 3:2 pulldown, but not always, so you might notice a little bit of judder in movies when watching over a 60p or 60i source (like on cable). You can get rid of it when using 'Auto Motion Plus'

This TV is very good for motion blur, so unless you're very sensitive and your last TV was extremely good for motion, you shouldn't have problems. The motion doesn't look exactly like a plasma TV though, because they flicker more than LED TVs.

You won't find a 70" TV with the same picture quality of the JS8500.

Thanks for the great review. Is the extra $500 between the JS7000 and JS8500 worth it? It seems like only difference is 3D, which I don't need, and the JS7000 shows 120 motion rate vs 240 for the JS8500, but I've heard those ratings can be misleading anyway.
You're right that those motion rates are misleading. For Samsung's 4k TVs, the motion rate is double the refresh rate, so the JS7000 has a 60 hz refresh rate, and the JS8500 has a 120 hz refresh rate.
The JS7000 has judder when playing 24 fps movies, and its screen is PLS, so it has a wide viewing angle, but weak contrast. For those reasons, the JS8500 is worth getting instead.


https://www.cnet.com/news/ultra-hd-4k-tv-refresh-rates/
Even high-end 4K TVs, like this Samsung JS8500, have a true refresh rate of at most 120Hz.
Sarah Tew/CNET

Anyway, very happy with my current settings and will just continue to use and enjoy them. Thanks for a great discussion. You guys are good teachers. Perhaps we've all learned a little something from each other and thanks for your input.
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:37   #48657  |  Link
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you should compare SM and native 23p playback without any post processing.
if you don't like motion comparable to cinema. fine move on.
Quote:
Yes, my display is 120Hz and not 60Hz. You keep telling me using motion interpolation aka phoney 240Hz, I'm seeing 2 headed people with 7 arms, 3 legs, 11 fingers, and 3 eyes. Oh and to confirm by looking in the corners. Again, I respect you and your opinions and all but that's simply not the case. Samsung is known for very good motion. I know you disagree. Maybe you got a peeve with Samsung or something but I'm honestly telling you the truth. I have nothing to gain. I wish you could sit in front of this set for 20 minutes and have your mind blown to be honest.
it's not like i can't go into a shop and see the hole samsung TV line up.
if you don't see it fine but there is no flawless interpolation algorithm and there is no way it will ever be flawless. if it doesn't have a reference for interpolation it can't work at all.

sorry but you are not going to blow me away with an old VA 3.5k CR VA panel.

and yet again you don't need a 120 hz panel to display 23p properly it just looks like Samsung need it...
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:45   #48658  |  Link
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@brazen1: I think you should really set your TV to game mode to make sure all processing is off and then evaluate for 24p stutter or motion blur. (there is nothing about LCD natively that can produce good motion, there is always some underlying processing going on, be it something as simple as PWM blinking...) ..it's not the question whether the panel can do 120 Hz, it's if it can accept 120Hz signal and not process it...
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Old 26th January 2018, 08:50   #48659  |  Link
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and yet again you don't need a 120 hz panel to display 23p properly it just looks like Samsung need it...
My Panasonic which is 120Hz sure as hell needs some processing, when set to "4K direct" it just reverts to pulldown judder even when fed 24 Hz from GPU...it's odd becuse Panasonic has always had proper 24Hz support (old PV8 plasma deals with it perfectly with no processing)..I was always under impression that LCD panels are multisync and that they can run 24 Hz input as 48Hz (not that it matters for flicker since they're basically sample-and-hold)

Last edited by mytbyte; 26th January 2018 at 08:57.
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Old 26th January 2018, 09:13   #48660  |  Link
huhn
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my panasonic has this bug too.
they even send me a techguy to replace my mainboard and i was like "yeah sure doesn't make any sense but good luck".

i'm done with that company.

it would be really nice if someone in Japan could bring this up to them.
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