Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Announcements and Chat > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th October 2001, 23:35   #1  |  Link
juhiatti
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: YU
Posts: 1
800 MB AVIs to 1 CD ?

Write 800 MB AVIs to a single 80 min CD ????

Here is my idea:

On an 80 min CD we can record 80 minutes of audio content or 700 MB of data content.

Now do some math!
Audio is 2 streams of 16 bit data with the sampling rate of 44100. So, in one second we have:
2 * 16 bits * 44100 1/s = 1411200 bits / second = 176400 bytes / second.
In 80 minutes of audio there is
80 * 60 * 176400 bytes = 846 720 000 bytes = 826875 kB = 807,5 MB

Clearly, for the CDFS we loose about 100 MB of space compared to the audio.

On a movie disk we have: the autolauncher files, various player / codec install files,
optionally some extra features (menus, pictures etc.), subtitle files and finally
the avi file(s).

The avi file is a largest file - the file. All the other files are small. So what we have to do
is find a way to absolutely precisely write to the disk the program files and others except
the big avi file (written like CDFS). This would take up to 10 MB of disk space.

The greatest (and hardest) now : write the avi file to disk as PCM audio.

Is it possible? Yes it is! How?

Well, there is a CD format called Mixed-Mode CD. This CD contains one ISO CD-ROM track with
data on it and the rest of the tracs is audio PCM tracs.

The problem is how to convert an AVI file to PCM. This is how:
We should have an audio wave editor application with the capability of opening PCM RAW format.
But first let's see the AVIs filesize: it have to be the multiple of 75 (don't ask me why -
this is how audio data is written to the disk 31 * 75 byte blocks = 2325 bytes / sector on CD).
So, the lenght of our avi file has to be enlarged to the next multiple of 75 (so max by 74 bytes)

Make a textfile with the apropriat size and join the tho files. Now the filesize is multiple of
75 and is still a valid AVI.

Now, in our wave editing application open the AVI as PCM RAW. When asked for format settings,
it is : channels:STEREO resolution:16 BIT samle rate:44100
The audio format on a CD is the same.

When the AVI is opened save it as a WAV file. Yes! You heard me good! As a WAV file.

This resulting WAV file will be burnt on our CD's audio track.

So, on the CD there will be the prog and other files on a CDFS track,
and the avi as a PCM audio track.

Technicly, the avi could be 800 MB in size and a few megs for other data; all fitting on
one 80 min CD.

We have to find a way to force our avi player (through a filter!?) to read this PCM audio track
and treat it as a valid AVI. The problem is that I don't now how to do it.
It should work like some audio grabbing utility which sees the track as a single PCM file.
All the AVI headers are on the beginning of the PCM data. When you grab this file to a PCM file
IT IS A VALID AVI FILE AND IT'S WORKING !!!!!!!!!!

Data errors made during the recording and grabbing processes are so small, that it can't be
seen on the final playing AVI. - Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors,
or in other words - there wouldn't be any picture and sound corruption when there is just a few
bits of error. For fewer bits of error - use lower burning speeds!!!!!

There is a CDFS.VXD version allowing Windows to see the audio tracks on an audio CD as WAV files.

So it has to be modified to alow Windows to see the tracks as RAW PCM. Why?
You can't force Windows to treat a WAV file with WAV header as AVI video with a certain FOURCC.

The otherr thing is, it had to see the audio tracks as RAW PCM and the ISO DATA TRACK with
the launcher , player etc. files.

I don't know anything about coding Windows filters and virtual device drivers, but such a device
would allow us to play with MicroDVDPlayer an AVI file from a Mixed-Mode CD audio track (through
ASPI or WinNT/2k calls).

If someone can do something about this, or you have other ways to do this contact me please!!!

My e-mail adresse is : gamjuhas@ptt.yu; or juhiatti@freemail.hu .

Greetings from juhili (aka juhi).
juhiatti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 00:07   #2  |  Link
prr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 26

> Multimedia files are resistant to some ammount of data errors
LOL.
Guess what happens if AVI header has one wrong bit in image size for example. AVI files can not be compared to PCM streams.
prr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 07:45   #3  |  Link
vitualis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 7

What juhiatti wrote may be possible, but probably not using the AVI file as audio.

Consider how a SVCD or VCD works on the PC...

The filesystem points to "DAT" files... However the "DAT" files are no more than the mpeg data written as separate tracks in mode2 form2 (i.e., 2324 bytes per sector as opposed to standard mode1 or mode2 form1's 2048 bytes per sector). However, these can already be read as normal files on most PCs.

Presumably, someone could create a tool to author a disc with a similar physical and logical layout as a VCD. That is, the first track has the ISO filesystem and from there it points to data written in mode2 form2 on subsequent tracks.

Regards.
__________________
Michael Tam
vitualis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 08:22   #4  |  Link
evilhomer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: College Park, Maryland, US
Posts: 146
previous thread

this was suggested in a previous thread. you'd have to write your own ISO driver for windows or something like that if i recall. technically possible, but only with a lot of knowledge/work/knowledge
evilhomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 16:35   #5  |  Link
guillep2k
MaestroSBT help
 
guillep2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 125

Have anyone experimented with UDF?

Guille
guillep2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 19:45   #6  |  Link
ZenithalRavage
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 6
re

hmm.. I think I'll just keep it to overburning, hell of alot easier
ZenithalRavage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 21:21   #7  |  Link
guillep2k
MaestroSBT help
 
guillep2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 125

Well... you could get the best of both worlds...
guillep2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2001, 23:15   #8  |  Link
michpan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Greece
Posts: 3

Or get an 800MB CD and get over with it quickly
michpan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2001, 01:15   #9  |  Link
Bubba
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 127

A couple solutions for this problem.

* 1400MB CD (i.e. double layer CD). I saw it, and it's too expensive. It was a 1400 MB CD-RW and it's something like $5 US (or more) for each. A 700MB bought in bulk (i.e. 50-CD spindle) can be low as 25 cents. Besides, I don't know current CD burner software (i.e. Nero, Easy CD Creator, etc.) can recognize and burn the full 1400MB or ???

* Use CD-ROM Data Mode 2 or CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2. "Data Mode 2" and "XA Mode Form 2" was actually designed for music, video, or graphical data. While a block in "Data Mode 1" is defined as 2048 bytes, a block in "Data Mode 2" is 2336 bytes, while a block in "XA Mode Form 2" is 2324 bytes. By convention there are 75 blocks in a second, and so:

74 minutes CD = 74 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 333000 blocks
80 minutes CD = 80 min. * 60 sec. * 75 = 360000 blocks.

With the regular "Data Mode 1":
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 681984000 bytes = 650.4 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2048 bytes = 737280000 bytes = 703.1 MB

Now with the "Data Mode 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 777888000 bytes = 741.9 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2336 bytes = 840960000 bytes = 802.0 MB

With "CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2", we have:
74 min CD = 333000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 773892000 bytes = 738.0 MB
80 min CD = 360000 blocks * 2324 bytes = 836640000 bytes = 797.9 MB

I think when we burn VCD in Nero, it use CD-ROM-XA Mode 2 Form 2.
Bubba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2001, 08:54   #10  |  Link
vitualis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 7

I think you missed the point...
  1. 1.2/1.4 GB CD-R media are not standard CDs. They cannot be read on most if not ALL current CD-ROM drives.
  2. You cannot burn data (normally) in Mode2 Form2 sectors. As anyone who has tried it will tell you, the normal limits of 650/700MB apply for user data when you burn in Mode2 (i.e., burning in Mode2 for CD-ROMs).

Thus the above speculation.

Regards.
__________________
Michael Tam
vitualis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2001, 13:10   #11  |  Link
guillep2k
MaestroSBT help
 
guillep2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 125

Maybe someone could extract the method used in vcdimager, which is open source, as it's true that mode 2 data from VCDs and SVCDs can be read in standard PCs, and the data IS saved mode 2. SVCDs have 2 sessions: one mode 1, with the file directory, and one mode 2, with the data. The entries in the directory point to the data in the mode 2 track. The problem is I know no tool that does that for normal files (it could be done, that's for sure... what is uncertain is how good would it be).
guillep2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2001, 16:05   #12  |  Link
ppera2
Registered User
 
ppera2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lands of confusion
Posts: 1,217

I suggested it before couple months. Main problem is not to writing AVI file to disk in Mode 2 Form 2 - it can be done easy with CDRWin.

By read such track you need to drop some amount of bytes, if I remember 16 at begin of sector. That requires writing of special driver for it. This driver could also handle AVI header & index area, (which is usual about 3 MB long) separated from video/audio stream. Placing them in Mode 1 area will ensure higher reability.
But my knowlidge is not enough for go further .
ppera2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st October 2001, 19:24   #13  |  Link
Steady
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Missouri, USA
Posts: 65

I agree. You need a program that splits an avi into to parts. The header and indexing is written as reliable 2048 bytes/sector data. The audio/video is written as 23?? bytes/sector audio. The program would need to recombine the index and data when reading the disk. It seems like a good idea to me. An alternative would be to use one of the more error resistant streaming formats (like asf).

The trouble is the program would have a short life. DVD recordables are not that far over the horizon. I still think there will be a need for compression, you can fit multiple shows on one disk. But I think that video's will no loanger be tied to the size of a CD. Instead it will be how many you can fit on a DVD.
Steady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st November 2001, 08:11   #14  |  Link
Helmut Hamburger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 8

thats will be excelent, u could put a whole season of tv shows, or a movie trilogy on 1 DVD-r
__________________
Dont try to argue with an idiot, they will only drag u down to their level and beat u with experience.
Helmut Hamburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2001, 04:19   #15  |  Link
theReal
Piper at theGates of Dawn
 
theReal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,138

Could one maybe use the VCD burning-mode of Nero to burn that avi on a VCD-like disc?

I had a corrupt mpg recently - Nero complained that it couldn't find audio and the compression was non-standard. I chose to ignore, burned the VCD and the result was perfect, no problems at all.
Of course, it was an mpeg file, while avi is something different, but I mean, mpeg4 is mpeg as well, so maybe one could trick the progs somehow? I don't know, I'm not a programmer...
theReal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2001, 15:39   #16  |  Link
ppera2
Registered User
 
ppera2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lands of confusion
Posts: 1,217

theReal, as I said it's not enough to write AVI in Mode 2 Form 2 to CD.
Mpeg1/2 has blocks that fit to 1 CD sector, if it's shorter padding is used (fill rest of place with dummy data).
Therefore, if you even success to force Nero to write AVI as (S)VCD content, you will not be able to read it correct.

Other thing: I just rented Ben Hur DVD. It has 13 GB on single disk.
How do you think to copy it to DVD-R ? What will it cost ?
ppera2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2001, 18:45   #17  |  Link
vitualis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 7
Re:

Quote:
Originally posted by ppera2
Other thing: I just rented Ben Hur DVD. It has 13 GB on single disk.
How do you think to copy it to DVD-R ? What will it cost ?
Not very likely. Even a dual-layered DVD only has a max capcity of ~9 Gb total.

Are you sure you read it correctly?

Regards.
__________________
Michael Tam
vitualis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2001, 19:04   #18  |  Link
ppera2
Registered User
 
ppera2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Lands of confusion
Posts: 1,217

Ben Hur is on double-side, double-layer DVD. At least this, R2 edition. Movie itself has around 10 GB.
ppera2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th November 2001, 22:49   #19  |  Link
Bubba
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 127
Follow up on new CD technologies


I made some few research, and here what I found on the double-density CD that I mentioned before. Apparently, the double-density CD with capacity of 1.3 to 1.4 GB are Sony products, and for the moment only the Sony Double Density CRX200E/A1 can read or write to these specially formulated CD-R and CD-RW media.

Since the time I saw it at before, the price has come down somewhat. It's now $2 to $3 for CD-R and CD-RW respectively. BTW, the Sony CRX200E/A1 is a 12x/8x/32x drive and priced around $190 - $200. It's not bad a price, but I guess if your friend doesn't have this drive, then the double-density CD you put "Saving Private Ryan" in one nice CD, can only read by you. It remind me of Zip drive and superdisk LS-120 drive. One is very popular while the other has more capacity but less popular.

The newest and most promising technology for Optical Storage is coming from Calimetrics Inc. and it's called MultiLevel Recording. According to various articles I read, this technology will triple a standard CD's capacity to 2.1 GB using current available technology, and it also triple the writing speed too. Basically, MultiLevel Recording works by writing and reading marks made in 8 color gradations instead of one, thus allowing the laser to read and write information within the same space. According to Calimetrics, MultiLevel drives will be backward-compatible for both reading & writing with current CD media, and so our current CDs won't be obsolete.

If I understood correctly, with MultiLevel Recording the single-layer 4.7GB DVD will also be triple to 14.1GB ... Wow! As of now, Panasonic, Plextor, Sanyo and TDK are all on board the MultiLevel bandwagon, and Calimetrics said that these guys will have products by first quarter 2002. So I guess, it's not too long to wait. How much are these new products?... I have no idea. The new media will be around $2, and as mentioned earlier the new drive will be able to read and write the current CD-R/CD-RW.

Here's a detail article from DATA STORAGE MAGAZINE about this technology:

http://ds.pennnet.com/Articles/Artic...RD=Calimetrics

Last edited by Bubba; 5th November 2001 at 23:18.
Bubba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th November 2001, 02:45   #20  |  Link
vinetu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 195

Oh Bubba ,
We speaking-looking for hacked (rewriten) device driver like
software (like good-old hacked CDFS.sys for Windows 98 ) which will
give us more storage space on curent technologies ,and why not
on further ...
We all know that in further,CD-ROMs, RAMs, RIMMs, will go BIGGER and BIGGER...

On theme now :
I'm sure that we can burn an avi file with " juhiatti's method "
and if there is a software "driver" which will handle data from
this "audio track" (also must replace unreadable data with correct
values -"black frames" for example), all will be done .
vinetu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.