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Old 15th October 2018, 11:28   #53241  |  Link
huhn
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reviews don't try to opimise for HTPC usage.

if you have your GPU at full range RGB. than this answers your question: "Like I said, I then get raised blacks / lighter image."
the option with the most "risen black level" is correct. because with a full range signal you can only get a clipped black/whites or correct one(ignoring madVR setting and expecting or defaults).
just try my very easy to do test with the image.
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Old 15th October 2018, 11:30   #53242  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
reviews don't try to opimise for HTPC usage.

if you have your GPU at full range RGB. than this answers your question: "Like I said, I then get raised blacks / lighter image."
the option with the most "risen black level" is correct. because with a full range signal you can only get a clipped black/whites or correct one(ignoring madVR setting and expecting or defaults).
just try my very easy to do test with the image.
Thanks for reply. Will come back here later when I have re-tested this again.
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Old 15th October 2018, 11:54   #53243  |  Link
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Thanks for reply. Will come back here later when I have re-tested this again.
Hi, I follow LG OLED very closely and they all have roughly the same settings in this area, I can guarantee that is the recommended settings you've been given arent working correctely for you, you either have a fault or something setup incorrectly.

Double check the following again:

PC

Graphics card set to FULL RGB 4:4:4
MADVR set to 0-255
video player set to MADVR renderer

Try these settings as a test but also report your current settings.

TV

Black level HIGH
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 49
OLED light 50

With these settings and using the black clipping pattern you should see a black crush and will probs only see 20+ flashing.

report back what you get.

Which movie player are you using?
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:04   #53244  |  Link
iSeries
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Thanks for reply. Will come back here later when I have re-tested this again.
This all might be better off in the general thread but yes as others have said, MadVR at 0-255, GPU at 0-255, and black level high will be correct.

However, my experience with LG TVs, they all behave exactly the same when it comes to RGB - they are better near-black when fed limited range. For example, with my C7 brightness at default 50, using the pattern from https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post46798617, with a complete 0-255 chain, the first square that is meant to be visible (which is actually the second square, the first square is completely black) is crushed to black, but with MadVR at 16-235, GPU at 0-255, and TV at low, that square is visible. I've had 5 LG TVs over 10 years, and they have all acted like this.
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:31   #53245  |  Link
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i've always had better control of black clipping feeding mine correctly, you'll get an extra conversion using limted in MADVR which can degrade the picture in other ways?
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:40   #53246  |  Link
iSeries
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There's no extra conversion with MadVR limited, GPU full, TV at limited (LG low). Also, with your brightness at default, test the pattern linked above :-)
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:43   #53247  |  Link
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the issue from blackbar detection comes from it runs on the CPU not because of d3d11. it is clearly possible to do it on the GPU and planned too if i'm not mistaken. but not 100 % sure why you want that on the GPU it's not like copyback hurts notable on good GPU but a GPU version of blackbar detection is clearly not going to be free.
I don't really mind whether the black bars detection is done by the CPU or the GPU, I would only like to be able to use D3D11 native instead of having to select D3D11 copyback and lose performance simply because I need the black bars detection.

If DXVA2 copyback performs better than D3D11 native, then I might go back to DXVA2 copyback and not care much, otherwise I'd still like to be able to use D3D11 native without losing black bars detection, as I shift the picture to the top of the screen for my manual masking (single mask at the bottom of my 16/9 screen when playing 2.35 or 2.4 content) and can't do without it.

EDIT: also I forgot we needed D3D11 to get 10bits without FSE, that's probably why I'm using it. I don't want to use FSE unless I can't do otherwise (i.e. in 3D) due to the long HDMI resync it causes here when displaying a menu on screen, so full screen windowed in 10bits is a requirement for me. Unless I'm mistaken on that point, going back to DXVA2 isn't possible.
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Last edited by Manni; 15th October 2018 at 13:51.
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:49   #53248  |  Link
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There's no extra conversion... :-)
you'll get a crushed desktop in this config though so web and youtube and other stuff will be crushed too wont it?
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:54   #53249  |  Link
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it depends on your GPU but i have a hard time to see d3d11 win at all if you care about GPU performance until madshi switches to d3d11 render pipe. i have no proper way to measure copyback cost but for a modern high performance GPU it's not much at all. but using d3d11 even the madVR OSD tells you what it costs.

i still don't understand why you care about decoder costing you GPU performance but blackbar detection is fine when it takes GPU performance.

time will tell if copyback cost more or doing blackbar detection on the GPU.
even through copyback has other benefits.
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:56   #53250  |  Link
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you'll get a crushed desktop in this config though so web and youtube and other stuff will be crushed too wont it?
In terms of video playback, there is no extra conversion - MadVR outputs limited range, GPU assumes it's full range and just passes it through. Only when GPU is at limited range would there be an extra conversion.

And sure the desktop is crushed, but the TV has lots of presets. I use ISF bright room with the black level set to high, and ISF dark room set to black level low (all other settings kept identical between them, so switching between bright and dark the only difference is the black level setting). Mine is an HTPC so I don't really use it for anything else anyway (I use the TVs YouTube and other apps with ARC). I know you use Kodi DSplayer, and that has the option to display in 16-235 for correct UI levels with a limited>full>limited chain.

Last edited by iSeries; 15th October 2018 at 13:58.
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:57   #53251  |  Link
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EDIT: also I forgot we needed D3D11 to get 10bits without FSE, that's probably why I'm using it
This only requires madVR in D3D11 presentation mode, it has nothing to do with how the decoder operates.

There is only a few things that the decoder mode influences:

- CPU-only madVR algorithms (black bar detection, and maybe others?), does not work with DXVA2 Native or D3D11 Native
- Deinterlacing, doesn't work with D3D11 Native only.

Everything works with Software decoding or DXVA2/D3D11 Copy-Back (because copy-back looks like software decoding to a renderer). And between those last two, DXVA2 Copy-Back is usually preferable because its more efficient, unless you need D3D11 to access a headless GPU.
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Old 15th October 2018, 13:57   #53252  |  Link
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you'll get a crushed desktop in this config though so web and youtube and other stuff will be crushed too wont it?
Correct, anything that outputs full range is crushed, just confirmed on my LG HDMI monitor.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:00   #53253  |  Link
mclingo
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I see, I'm a one stop shopper myself, minimal setup, I dont like having to change TV preset based on content. I will test it for myself though.

cheers


Please move this discussion to here from herein, its blocking MADVR issues.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175769
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:01   #53254  |  Link
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Well that's your choice, but I'm not going to settle for crushed near-black just because I don't want to press a button on the remote ;-) Like I said, I only use it as a HTPC (Kodi DSplayer also), so I never even really see the desktop. Kodi DSplayer is set to 16-235, as is MadVR, GPU to 0-255, TV to 16-235. All levels are correct, no near-black crush.

LGs simply do better when working limited range.

Last edited by iSeries; 15th October 2018 at 14:05.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:03   #53255  |  Link
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or you use 1-255.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:08   #53256  |  Link
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Yes, that's also an option. As is raising the TV brightness one notch. But both those options raises everything, whereas the only difference between limited>full>limited and full>full>full is that first near-black shade which is crushed with the latter. All other shades above that are at equal brightness (measured with meter).

No idea if that would be detrimental to the TVs HDR tonemapping as well. For sure, the advice is to not touch any of the default settings on the TV for HDR as it messes up the tonemapping.

Last edited by iSeries; 15th October 2018 at 14:12.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:25   #53257  |  Link
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Complete 0-255 chain vs MadVR at 16-235, GPU at 0-255, and TV at low doesn't make a difference on my C8.

Tested in a pitch black room using the linked and other black clipping test pattern.

Also it would have really surprised me if it made a difference regarding near-blacks/black crush.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:34   #53258  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
This only requires madVR in D3D11 presentation mode, it has nothing to do with how the decoder operates.

There is only a few things that the decoder mode influences:

- CPU-only madVR algorithms (black bar detection, and maybe others?), does not work with DXVA2 Native or D3D11 Native
- Deinterlacing, doesn't work with D3D11 Native only.

Everything works with Software decoding or DXVA2/D3D11 Copy-Back (because copy-back looks like software decoding to a renderer). And between those last two, DXVA2 Copy-Back is usually preferable because its more efficient, unless you need D3D11 to access a headless GPU.
Thanks, that clarifies everything. I'll compare DXVA2 CB and D3D11 CB, although I'm often using Teamviewer to control the HTPC without having to switch the PJ on or switch inputs on my 4K monitor, so if that's what you call headless GPU I'll probably need D3D11.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:40   #53259  |  Link
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no it's not headless. native would fail if you use your whole system headless.
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Old 15th October 2018, 14:57   #53260  |  Link
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The primary GPU is always available through DXVA2-CB as well, thanks to D3D9Ex. Just any secondary fully headless GPUs would not be.
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