can we sue keyboard producers now?

sysKin · 8th October 2003, 15:00

Hi

As I just read in the news, new "non-copyable" CDs arrived. The "protection" looks like the lamest ever - it's an autostart proggy that runs when you put the CD to a windows-based computer (let me just copy the link from news page: http://www.p2pnet.net/article/8323 )

The easiest way to remove the protection is to press the Shift key to disable autostart. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this makes the Shift key a protection-cracker! As far as I understand US law, the Shift button is illegal now, and all manufacturers responsible for producing it are offenders. I mean come on, they're making TWO of them in each keyboard - just to mock the good RIAA people, probably.

Isn't this the time to sue them?

Radek

Wilbert · 8th October 2003, 15:31

Why not sue Microsoft? After all, it's their fault that you can disable autostart. It would be a nice battle, RIAA vs Microsoft

trbarry · 8th October 2003, 16:26

A CDRom or DVDRom drive is not just for running programs but also for reading data. So it really seems like a severe security weakness to have programs automatically run just by putting a disc in the drive. I often want to first browse a disc before actually doing anything else with it.

And I don't trust the contents of many discs, including miscellenous discs from forgotten sources and some of those from MPAA or RIAA members. Representatives of these companies have made various statements that it is okay to report the contents of your computer or even sabotoge systems containing material thought to be violating copyrights. So I really don't want to run their programs on my machines any more than needed.

And even discs from trusted sources occasionally contain viruses.

For those reasons I usually keep auto-insert notification turned off on my machines.

- Tom

wmansir · 8th October 2003, 22:56

Am I the only one who thought the typo in the thread title was going to be related to the story?

Arky · 9th October 2003, 18:46

Doom9 · 9th October 2003, 19:06

actually, the RIAA is already preparing to file suit and get temporary injunctions against any keyboard maker that has a model with a shift key in their product line. That also includes notebook makers and even software makers that offer a virtual keyboard (so for instance Microsoft with their Pocket PC / Windows Mobile operating system). Soon, we'll no longer be able to use capital letters because those temporary injuctions will be granted swiftly under the DMCA. Finally we no longer have to worry about what words to start with capital letters, and we can get rid of a whole series of special characters as well. Good news all around, isn't it?

communist · 9th October 2003, 19:21

Hilarious

SeeMoreDigital · 9th October 2003, 19:24

Blimey!

What happens when computers with decent voice activation arrive?

Will I still be able to speak the word 'shift', or will this be banned too?

Cheers

Doom9 · 9th October 2003, 20:14

Quote:

Will I still be able to speak the word 'shift', or will this be banned too?

Since this could be used to circumvent a copy protection mechanism, every voice recognition software has to be programmed as to not recognize the word shift in any known language and dialect. Whether writing shift and shift operations in computing (be it in programming languages or CPU internal operations) is as of yet not known but the RIAA's legal team is already looking into that.
I'll keep you posted

SeeMoreDigital · 9th October 2003, 20:30

Thanks Doom9

In the mean time I'm gonna think up some new words for 'shift'!

Cheers

GIR · 10th October 2003, 02:39

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/33322.html

I'm speechless, no wait I got something, they want to sue someone for pointing out a feature of an operating system that was made back in 1995?!?

LordDethstar · 10th October 2003, 03:04

This "copy protection" is amusing. After reading the description a while ago, I would have thought that it was implemented using autorun. Then I thought "no, they can't be that stupid". "Nobody would implement a copy protection like that..."
And now here we are, and they implemented it exactly like that.

nFury8 · 10th October 2003, 05:20

originally posted by SeeMoreDigital

Quote:

In the mean time I'm gonna think up some new words for 'shift'!

Considering the whole mess, just take out the letter 'f', and you've got your new word.

erbuk · 10th October 2003, 08:13

This also means that regedit and the control panel in windows are illegal software since they can be used to turn off autoplay

Doom9 · 10th October 2003, 12:11

@erbuk: you are correct... the RIAA legal team is happy to accept any other ideas on what they could go after next

From the Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/markets/bonds/...tr1105123.html)

Quote:

SunnComm alleged Halderman violated criminal provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in disclosing the existence of those driver files.

I think that means we have to get rid of any program hat can show what files are contained on any medium now. Explorer, any browser software capable of browsing local HDs, any file explorer, heck even basic OS commands like cd and dir are now illegal. It gets even better... OS API commands are now also illegal because they can be used to find out what files there are on a medium. Goodbye fopen & co, welcome to riaa-fopen. Basically, every operating system is illegal. Now I wonder if mice and screens are also illegal because they can be used to navigate a directory tree, and display files your not supposed to see. Heck, if we're at it, why don't we acid out our auditory and visual tract so that we are sure to never again be able to see or listen to anything that could potentially be illegal.
God, I think I'm going to get my army rifle and shoot myself just to be on the safe side.

SeeMoreDigital · 10th October 2003, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Doom9
... God, I think I'm going to get my army rifle and shoot myself just to be on the safe side.

Is that legal?

bilu · 10th October 2003, 14:10

The guy should counter-sue them.

What is he being accused?? Using a public, standard, documented for years keyboard technique??

How about accusing Microsoft in this case:

http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4755

of enabling the use of Ctrl-Alt-Del combination on Windows to circunvent their liability problem?

Or maybe accuse car manufacturers for using gasoline and polluting the air

EDIT: Maybe someone could sue MPAA/RIAA for negligence. After all, they released a weak security on DVD's that can't protect our DVDs/CDs from being copied

Bilu

trbarry · 10th October 2003, 16:33

Actually it sound like Halderman would not at all mind being sued.

From the CNET news story

Quote:

Halderman said he's not overly worried about the legal threat. The EFF represented his advisor, Princeton professor Edward Felten, in a lawsuit dealing with academic freedom to publish computer security information, and Princeton University supported Felten in that case.

It sounds like Halderman knows what he is doing and has Edward Felten's experiance and contacts to rely on. With the EFF supporting it and being an obviously silly case this is one I would love to see all the way to the Supreme Court.

- Tom

PS - I wonder if my diatribe above about disabling autorun also violates the DMCA?

bilu · 10th October 2003, 16:58

shhh.... don't use the ****run word!

trbarry · 10th October 2003, 17:39

Back in the day ...

say maybe in the early 1980's, software used to be mostly distributed on floppies. For the most part viruses were also mostly distributed on floppies. So you knew that if you engaged in unsafe computing practice and inserted a floppy disk into your drive without the little plastic protective cover then bad things could happen and you could get infected.

But at least at that time it was (mostly) safe to at least put a disk in the drive and look at the contents to see what it was. You had to worry about some ascii escape sequences in file names and you had to be sure not to leave the stupid disk in the drive before you next rebooted. But otherwise it was fairly safe. Just don't run the darn programs on it.

But autorun does exactly the wrong thing from a virus and security standpoint. I don't even know if things like Norton Security protect against autorun programs. Do they? Does anything get scanned on insert before execution?

Whoever came up with the idea that people should exchange programs as casually and frivolously as we exchange data obviously gave no thought to security. It is the distinction between whether I might be willing to listen to what your say and whether I would be willing to blindly follow your commands. They are two completely different levels of trust.

And now that we even have large well known companies (legally) distributing items that encumber our machines this is doubly true.

How many of us would happily comply if we got a free disc in the mail from the MPAA or RIAA that said "Insert Me"?

Autorun sucks, and should be abolished.

</rant>

- Tom

8th October 2003, 15:00	#1 \| Link
sysKin Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,167	can we sue keyboard producers now? Hi As I just read in the news, new "non-copyable" CDs arrived. The "protection" looks like the lamest ever - it's an autostart proggy that runs when you put the CD to a windows-based computer (let me just copy the link from news page: http://www.p2pnet.net/article/8323 ) The easiest way to remove the protection is to press the Shift key to disable autostart. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this makes the Shift key a protection-cracker! As far as I understand US law, the Shift button is illegal now, and all manufacturers responsible for producing it are offenders. I mean come on, they're making TWO of them in each keyboard - just to mock the good RIAA people, probably. Isn't this the time to sue them? Radek __________________ Visit #xvid or #x264 at irc.freenode.net Last edited by sysKin; 10th October 2003 at 13:29.

8th October 2003, 16:26	#3 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	A CDRom or DVDRom drive is not just for running programs but also for reading data. So it really seems like a severe security weakness to have programs automatically run just by putting a disc in the drive. I often want to first browse a disc before actually doing anything else with it. And I don't trust the contents of many discs, including miscellenous discs from forgotten sources and some of those from MPAA or RIAA members. Representatives of these companies have made various statements that it is okay to report the contents of your computer or even sabotoge systems containing material thought to be violating copyrights. So I really don't want to run their programs on my machines any more than needed. And even discs from trusted sources occasionally contain viruses. For those reasons I usually keep auto-insert notification turned off on my machines. - Tom __________________ My video filters (still) at www.trbarry.com.

9th October 2003, 19:06	#6 \| Link
Doom9 clueless n00b Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: somewhere over the rainbow Posts: 10,579	actually, the RIAA is already preparing to file suit and get temporary injunctions against any keyboard maker that has a model with a shift key in their product line. That also includes notebook makers and even software makers that offer a virtual keyboard (so for instance Microsoft with their Pocket PC / Windows Mobile operating system). Soon, we'll no longer be able to use capital letters because those temporary injuctions will be granted swiftly under the DMCA. Finally we no longer have to worry about what words to start with capital letters, and we can get rid of a whole series of special characters as well. Good news all around, isn't it? __________________ For the web's most comprehensive collection of DVD backup guides go to www.doom9.org

9th October 2003, 19:24	#8 \| Link
SeeMoreDigital Life's clearer in 4K UHD Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Notts, UK Posts: 12,227	Blimey! What happens when computers with decent voice activation arrive? Will I still be able to speak the word 'shift', or will this be banned too? Cheers __________________ \| I've been testing hardware media playback devices and software A/V encoders and decoders since 2001 \| My Network Layout & A/V Gear \|

9th October 2003, 20:30	#10 \| Link
SeeMoreDigital Life's clearer in 4K UHD Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Notts, UK Posts: 12,227	Thanks Doom9 In the mean time I'm gonna think up some new words for 'shift'! Cheers __________________ \| I've been testing hardware media playback devices and software A/V encoders and decoders since 2001 \| My Network Layout & A/V Gear \|

8th October 2003, 15:31	#2 \| Link
Wilbert Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Netherlands Posts: 6,364	Why not sue Microsoft? After all, it's their fault that you can disable autostart. It would be a nice battle, RIAA vs Microsoft

8th October 2003, 22:56	#4 \| Link
wmansir Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: USA Posts: 1,919	Am I the only one who thought the typo in the thread title was going to be related to the story?

9th October 2003, 18:46	#5 \| Link
Arky Moderator Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: UK Posts: 1,479

9th October 2003, 19:21	#7 \| Link
communist Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,152	Hilarious

10th October 2003, 02:39	#11 \| Link
GIR Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a House Posts: 68	http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/33322.html I'm speechless, no wait I got something, they want to sue someone for pointing out a feature of an operating system that was made back in 1995?!?

10th October 2003, 03:04	#12 \| Link
LordDethstar Forum Spammer Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 53	This "copy protection" is amusing. After reading the description a while ago, I would have thought that it was implemented using autorun. Then I thought "no, they can't be that stupid". "Nobody would implement a copy protection like that..." And now here we are, and they implemented it exactly like that.

10th October 2003, 08:13	#14 \| Link
erbuk Stupid Newbie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 100	This also means that regedit and the control panel in windows are illegal software since they can be used to turn off autoplay Last edited by erbuk; 10th October 2003 at 19:42.

10th October 2003, 14:10	#17 \| Link
bilu Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 1,182	The guy should counter-sue them. What is he being accused?? Using a public, standard, documented for years keyboard technique?? How about accusing Microsoft in this case: http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4755 of enabling the use of Ctrl-Alt-Del combination on Windows to circunvent their liability problem? Or maybe accuse car manufacturers for using gasoline and polluting the air EDIT: Maybe someone could sue MPAA/RIAA for negligence. After all, they released a weak security on DVD's that can't protect our DVDs/CDs from being copied Bilu Last edited by bilu; 10th October 2003 at 14:15.

10th October 2003, 16:58	#19 \| Link
bilu Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Portugal Posts: 1,182	shhh.... don't use the ****run word!

10th October 2003, 17:39	#20 \| Link
trbarry Registered User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Gainesville FL USA Posts: 2,092	Back in the day ... say maybe in the early 1980's, software used to be mostly distributed on floppies. For the most part viruses were also mostly distributed on floppies. So you knew that if you engaged in unsafe computing practice and inserted a floppy disk into your drive without the little plastic protective cover then bad things could happen and you could get infected. But at least at that time it was (mostly) safe to at least put a disk in the drive and look at the contents to see what it was. You had to worry about some ascii escape sequences in file names and you had to be sure not to leave the stupid disk in the drive before you next rebooted. But otherwise it was fairly safe. Just don't run the darn programs on it. But autorun does exactly the wrong thing from a virus and security standpoint. I don't even know if things like Norton Security protect against autorun programs. Do they? Does anything get scanned on insert before execution? Whoever came up with the idea that people should exchange programs as casually and frivolously as we exchange data obviously gave no thought to security. It is the distinction between whether I might be willing to listen to what your say and whether I would be willing to blindly follow your commands. They are two completely different levels of trust. And now that we even have large well known companies (legally) distributing items that encumber our machines this is doubly true. How many of us would happily comply if we got a free disc in the mail from the MPAA or RIAA that said "Insert Me"? Autorun sucks, and should be abolished. </rant> - Tom __________________ My video filters (still) at www.trbarry.com. Last edited by trbarry; 10th October 2003 at 17:42.

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