madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by el Filou

lol.
In the exact same post you first say you understand vanden's need:
but then just two sentences later you ask again why bother to use madVR if it's to sacrifice quality here or there:The point is to benefit from madVR's unique HDR tonemapping, which MPC's custom presenter cannot do.Tbh, if he's using a CRT with UHD sources, I'm not sure he's gonna see the difference between DXVA chroma upscaling and a higher quality one by madVR. Are you suggesting he also throws money to change his display?

I'm suggesting he change his GPU, because the compromises he's intending to make is Not verified (to work properly) at this point, and assuming they do get validated by Madshi it will take some time.

As for the monitor, if vanden's using a lacie 22, he's probably a crt enthusiast, He probably has another monitor, he's just choosing to stay CRT for the MAGIC.

[vanden]

@ tp4tissue
GTX650Ti probably has a VGA RAMDAC of 400 Mhz, but it is stable @ 440 Mhz.

SUNIX DPU3000 <allegedly can do 500mhz pixel clock :

This is not marked what it supports in VGA !!
I searched and the max that I found (tested) is 330-340 Mhz :
https://hardforum.com/threads/dvi-d-...fw900.1800043/
https://support.plugable.com/t/high-...dmi-2-0/8816/4

The whole point of madvr is to be more accurate, by keeping the unstable/imprecise dxva @ bay.

I copy El Filou's answer :

vanden has to use DXVA chroma/scaling because he's using madVR for the (very) high quality HDR tonemapping and with his GPU he has to make a choice. I think it's valid.

And ryrynz :

Not exactly. DXVA isn't quite as bad as you make out in many situations.
Sometimes sacrificing chroma quality is actually a worthwhile trade off.

But actually when I read a bluray I use NGU Very High for chroma upscaling (screen in 1920x1200 @ 72 or 96hz whith optimized timing : No drops/repeats expected) MPCHC x64 :
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1165/oZVxnz.jpg
But often I prefer to use SVPx3 @ 72Hz, and I have to make concessions again (Chroma upscaling = Lanctoz4AR), I love the swap opera (but I still prefer high framerate video) MPCHC x64 :
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1165/ARDeH3.jpg
And for video 4k 10bit HDR I still make concessions (I can not use SVP, I use smooth motion ... it's less good but I have no choice) and for the upscaling I am obliged to use DXVA ... it is surely not the best quality but frankly it remains very watchable and especially I have madVR's tone mapping !

We use madvr because we want to get the most quality out of the thing, but then now, we hold back the minimal amount of resources that madvr needs to work properly. What was the point ?

I copy El Filou's answer :

The point is to benefit from madVR's unique HDR tonemapping, which MPC's custom presenter cannot do.

For now I do not intend to change the screen and graphics card, is a screen of 2004 that I was given 6 years ago and the graphic card same !

The screen is great I use it for Bluray 3D (VGA eDimentional glasses buy 40 €) for some video hight framerat 48-120Hz and now for video 4K 10 bit HDR ... it is very bright (for a CRT / 150cd/m²)

If today I had to buy a screen with nothing but most of these features : it's very expensive.

Certainly I do not claim that in 2880x2160 all the pixels are well defined but we can go beyond the 2048x1536 (the difference of image sharpness and details is visible at least until 2240x1680/2560x1440) ...

You should know that in 2004 no consumer card manages more than 2048x1536 and I think that is why the screen manufacturers of the time did not put higher resolutions !

[RXP]

Is anyone using MadVR to tone map to their OLEDs? I realised I can setup two different profiles in MadVR settings and assign a keyboard shortcut. So I set up one for passthrough HDR metadata to display and then a pixel shaders tone map. I can then use Ctrl-Alt-1 and Ctrl-Alt-2 to toggle between the two.

I can take the LG Jazz demo scene, pause it and immediately see the difference between MadVR vs native. MadVR has a ton of detail recovery but for some reason it really desaturates the pixels. So while I can make out more detail - that detail is white. Take the light bulb scene - I can make out the filliments at the center with MadVR more but they're almost white. With LG's own, I can't make out detail but the colour is more orange/red.

I was wondering if this was due to LG C6's own tone mapping, so I was getting double tone mapping even though I'm running 385.28 with my GTX 1070 and have set the peak nits to 650.

I actually prefer the look on the native tone mapping in many scenes

[madjock]

Originally Posted by RXP

Is anyone using MadVR to tone map to their OLEDs? I realised I can setup two different profiles in MadVR settings and assign a keyboard shortcut. So I set up one for passthrough HDR metadata to display and then a pixel shaders tone map. I can then use Ctrl-Alt-1 and Ctrl-Alt-2 to toggle between the two.

I can take the LG Jazz demo scene, pause it and immediately see the difference between MadVR vs native. MadVR has a ton of detail recovery but for some reason it really desaturates the pixels. So while I can make out more detail - that detail is white. Take the light bulb scene - I can make out the filliments at the center with MadVR more but they're almost white. With LG's own, I can't make out detail but the colour is more orange/red.

I was wondering if this was due to LG C6's own tone mapping, so I was getting double tone mapping even though I'm running 385.28 with my GTX 1070 and have set the peak nits to 650.

I actually prefer the look on the native tone mapping in many scenes

Try taking your peak nits down to 200 or something. I dont have an OLED, but I think the setting needs to be lower.

[Alexkral]

Originally Posted by RXP

MadVR has a ton of detail recovery but for some reason it really desaturates the pixels.

If those saturation differences are only in the highlights then it's probably due to madVR's gamut mapping, I also feel that it desaturates them too much. I think that just clipping looks more appealing most of the time, but really bad sometimes. I don't know what the C6 will be doing.

[Warner306]

If it is gamut mapping, someone should take some screenshots and provide a timestamp so madshi can take a look at it. Desaturation of bright detail isn't an issue with SDR output. Make sure you uncheck compromise on tone and gamut mapping quality under trade quality for performance.

Do you have Pan or Mad Max: Fury Road? Can you test the same scenes shown in this video showing the HDR Optimizer on the UB9000 to see how madVR compares? It is already doing a better job with SDR output, so I don't see why it can't do a similar or superior job with HDR output.

Note that the Panasonic has the target peak nits set to 1,000 nits (or OLED in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTw_Toh0PzA&t=909s

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by vanden

@ tp4tissue

snip

@ vanden.

The converter I linked goes up to 500mhz. It's been tested by the fw900 enthusiasts. they know what they're doing.


As for Using Madvr in the way , YOU, intend to use it.

Right now you're essentially sacrificing ALL of madvr's features for HDR tonemapping.

And one of the major sacrifices you're doing is Chroma and Luma accuracy (good tonemapping would need that , probably ?).

Which means, even if tonemapping and everything works correctly (WHICH we don't know is the case given your current settings, untested by anyone, no one has measured it with a meter, nothing), you've negated a significant portion of the Benefits of using Madvr.

_it's possible in the future_ Someone / maybe even madshi, will go and validate the settings you're using, but there's no guarantee, and it may be quite a while.

What you're doing is like buying a car with a HUGE engine, but you ran out of money, and couldn't afford the wheels. I am NOT saying that a car with no wheels has absolutely no use.. For sure you can sit in it, and pretend like you're driving.. but it's a bit silly. This is what you're setting up right now, with the Madvr compromises.



As for the CRT issue. The native resolution on your box is ~2000 horizontal. Which is well within even the most budget vga adapters.

That means, the manufacturers has determined, that given the Shadow mask and the Signal processing curves, phosphorus bloom, That Native resolution labeled on the box produces the highest fidelity. DO NOT presume that because you can overdrive the beam, that it's better. The Designers know what they're doing, you are NOT getting a better image out of it by going to 2880.

There is ALOT more tuning that the builders did to flesh out the Best presentation from their machine, and all of it centers around the number they put on the box.

At higher res, you lose fidelity, detail, color/tone accuracy, geometry accuracy, I recommend you browse the fw900 thread, the reasons are explained there.



In your situation, if you're dead-set on that CRT, the Cheapest option is a 960 gtx, which has 4K decoding hardware unlike 970/980gtx.

There are faster ATI cards with vga than the 960 w/ 4K, but they're not as well supported by madvr vs nvidia.

The next best, more expensive option is 980 Ti

More money, more reliable, is a 1060/70/80 + Sunix adapter.

Then finally, 1080Ti, 20xx 2080Ti + Sunix adapter.

[ryrynz]

@madjock, would you mind not quoting an entire multi paragraph post directly above yours just to write a one sentence answer? Just hit reply not quote, a thread is serial by design so replies directed to the author of a previous post are extremely common and easily extrapolated as such. Thanks.

[el Filou]

Originally Posted by tp4tissue

@ vanden.
As for the CRT issue. The native resolution on your box is ~2000 horizontal. Which is well within even the most budget vga adapters.
That means, the manufacturers has determined, that given the Shadow mask and the Signal processing curves, phosphorus bloom, That Native resolution labeled on the box produces the highest fidelity. DO NOT presume that because you can overdrive the beam, that it's better. The Designers know what they're doing, you are NOT getting a better image out of it by going to 2880.

The recommended resolution isn't even 2048x1536 even though it's the highest listed, it's 1600x1200. LaCie also lists an aperture grille pitch of 0,24mm which for this tube size gives ~1690 lines.

(CRTs don't really have a 'native definition', btw)

[tp4tissue]

Originally Posted by el Filou

The recommended resolution isn't even 2048x1536 even though it's the highest listed, it's 1600x1200. LaCie also lists an aperture grille pitch of 0,24mm which for this tube size gives ~1690 lines.

(CRTs don't really have a 'native definition', btw)

Whatever's recommended or listed is the one to go with. Point is, someone tuned the box for the numbers in the listed spec. Go above or below, we end in the same non-validated territory.


As for Native resolution, it comes down to how you define Native.

Native as in the tuned the rise and fall of the voltage controller to optimize some aspect of the beam gun. Would that constitute NATIVE ?

Is the limitation of the horizontal scan, or the vertical scan, or the aperture ?

the Answer is NONE of those things, it's ALL of those things. The totality of the design IS the Native Resolution of the Final Device.


Whether or not something has a Native resolution in-theory is irrelevant.

Whatever was validated By the designer/engineer, that is native, they wrote it ON THE BOX, no need to overthink this..

[Alexkral]

Mad Max: Fury Road 28:29

MMFR - UB9000 HDR Optimizer Off
MMFR - UB9000 HDR Optimizer On
MMFR - madVR tonemapping 10000 nits to 1000 nits + gamut mapping
MMFR - Clipping at 1000 nits + Transform Matrix
MMFR - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 1000 nits with ICtCp Option + Transform Matrix
MMFR - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 1000 nits with RGB Option + Transform Matrix

Those of the UB9000 look brighter because they are photos made to the screen and my TV is around 400 nits. In this scene the RGB option seems the best because the highlights are very saturated, but it is usually the worst because it desaturates too much as can be seen here:

Interstellar 1:34:38

Interstellar - BT.2390 Tonemapping 4000 nits to 400 nits with ICtCp Option + Transform Matrix
Interstellar - BT.2390 Tonemapping 4000 nits to 400 nits with RGB Option + Transform Matrix

But madVR's gamut mapping seems to desaturate too much, like here:

X Men: Apocalypse 1:49:02

XMA - madVR Tonemapping to 400 nits + Gamut mapping
XMA - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 400 nits + Transform Matrix
XMA - BT.2390 Tonemapping 1000 nits to 400 nits + Transform Matrix

MadVR is the most desaturated of the three. Anyway, I'm not quite sure what madVR is doing here. It seems as if it's discarding the metadata and tonemapping from 10000 nits, but the white of the rays being so bright suggests that it's tonemapping from 1000 nits and the difference is due to gamut mapping vs. clipping.

EDIT: The UB9000 pictures are screenshots of the video posted by Warner306, but in the video they're photos taken to the screen.

[madjock]

Originally Posted by ryrynz

@madjock, would you mind not quoting an entire multi paragraph post directly above yours just to write a one sentence answer? Just hit reply not quote, a thread is serial by design so replies directed to the author of a previous post are extremely common and easily extrapolated as such. Thanks.

No problem ryrynz, I would say that if you have a moderation hat on, please get tp4tissue/el Filou to stop talking about a problem the op does not even care about. Arguing about what is and what is not is hardly any help in a madVR thread, but it just seems to be dragging on. My paragraph quote was not over 2 pages long talking about nothing.

[ryrynz]

Yeah, I think that conversation is wrapped up basically anyway. You give OT about a page maybe two depending on who's involved.. xD

[Alexkral]

To compare better with UB9000. Very surprising how the RGB option is much better here:

MMFR - madVR tonemapping 10000 nits to 100 nits + gamut mapping
MMFR - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 100 nits with ICtCp Option + Transform Matrix
MMFR - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 100 nits with RGB Option + Transform Matrix

[Warner306]

Originally Posted by Alexkral

Mad Max: Fury Road 28:29

MMFR - UB9000 HDR Optimizer Off
MMFR - UB9000 HDR Optimizer On
MMFR - madVR tonemapping 10000 nits to 1000 nits + gamut mapping
MMFR - Clipping at 1000 nits + Transform Matrix
MMFR - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 1000 nits with ICtCp Option + Transform Matrix
MMFR - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 1000 nits with RGB Option + Transform Matrix

Those of the UB9000 look brighter because they are photos made to the screen and my TV is around 400 nits. In this scene the RGB option seems the best because the highlights are very saturated, but it is usually the worst because it desaturates too much as can be seen here:

Interstellar 1:34:38

Interstellar - BT.2390 Tonemapping 4000 nits to 400 nits with ICtCp Option + Transform Matrix
Interstellar - BT.2390 Tonemapping 4000 nits to 400 nits with RGB Option + Transform Matrix

But madVR's gamut mapping seems to desaturate too much, like here:

X Men: Apocalypse 1:49:02

XMA - madVR Tonemapping to 400 nits + Gamut mapping
XMA - BT.2390 Tonemapping 10000 nits to 400 nits + Transform Matrix
XMA - BT.2390 Tonemapping 1000 nits to 400 nits + Transform Matrix

MadVR is the most desaturated of the three. Anyway, I'm not quite sure what madVR is doing here. It seems as if it's discarding the metadata and tonemapping from 10000 nits, but the white of the rays being so bright suggests that it's tonemapping from 1000 nits and the difference is due to gamut mapping vs. clipping.

EDIT: The UB9000 pictures are screenshots of the video posted by Warner306, but in the video they're photos taken to the screen.

This comparison was supposed to be between the UB9000 vs. madVR HDR -> HDR using shaders vs. madVR HDR -> SDR using shaders. All of your HDR images are showing HDR passthrough.

If you use shaders and output in HDR format, gamut mapping will be applied. The user who started this discussion was complaining about desaturation when outputting in an HDR format. HDR -> SDR looks color accurate in your last post. Maybe is it less sharp in a couple of the comparisons.

[mkohman]

Hi Guys,
Can someone please help me out with the "profile auto select rules" in madVR for downscaling 2160p to 1080p?

My friend has a 1080p projector but he downloads 2160p movies as he will get a 4K projector in the future but for now he wants to use madvr with KodiDSPLayer so can someone please remind me the source code I need to input into madVR please?

if (scrWidth)... etc etc..

Many thanks

[Warner306]

Try this:

if (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p"
else if (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p"

else if (srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920) "1080p"

else if (srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720) "720p"
else if (srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280) "720p"

else if (srcHeight <= 540) and (srcWidth <= 960) "SD"


And check scale chroma separately under trade quality for performance.

[mkohman]

Originally Posted by Warner306

Try this:

if (srcHeight > 1080) "2160p"
else if (srcWidth > 1920) "2160p"

else if (srcHeight > 720) and (srcHeight <= 1080) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth > 1280) and (srcWidth <= 1920) "1080p"

else if (srcHeight > 540) and (srcHeight <= 720) "720p"
else if (srcWidth > 960) and (srcWidth <= 1280) "720p"

else if (srcHeight <= 540) and (srcWidth <= 960) "SD"


And check scale chroma separately under trade quality for performance.

Thank you so much.. This is to make everything 1080p right? Thank you

Also do I create a seperate 2160p folder under "scaling algorithms" in madvr or only a 1080p one? Thanks

[Warner306]

Create all of the folders above for any content that your friend has. Each profile will apply to each content type.

FYI, I just copy-and-pasted that code in one minute from the madVR guide in my signature.

[mkohman]

Originally Posted by Warner306

Create all of the folders above for any content that your friend has. Each profile will apply to each content type.

FYI, I just copy-and-pasted that code in one minute from the madVR guide in my signature.

Thank you