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9th February 2016, 09:49 | #35962 | Link |
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Since v0.90.5 my former problems with D3D11 *without* presenting a frame for every VSync are gone!
(Generally playback was fine before, but in rare cases out of nowhere a massive amount of stuttering and frame drops started. Restarting the movie fixed it, until it happened randomly the next time.) However can it be that D3D11 *without* presenting a frame for every VSync is a tiny bit less smooth? That's my impression with slow pans and stuff. It's really minor though, but constant and regular nano stuttering. |
9th February 2016, 10:46 | #35963 | Link |
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Watch some scrolling text (end credits) also if you're playing through a TV enable frame interpolation if you have it (Smooth Motion, Intelligent Frame creation etc) that can be unforgiving to presentation issues and might help you determine if one is better than the other for your setup.
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9th February 2016, 10:56 | #35964 | Link | ||||||||||||||
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If you find the image too sharp, you could try using a softer upscaling algorithm, or to dial down the upscaling refinement options. It would be possible to reduce the "effectiveness" of SSIM, but so far you're the only user who asks for that, and I'm not going to add option just for one user. In any case, we're still working on the algorithm itself. The algorithm might be improved/changed a little bit, depending on user feedback. Even if we were to add some sort of sharpness control, it would be too early now, because it's not clear yet whether the algo is 100% done or not. Quote:
Another reason is that NVidia GPUs like to crash when staying in 3D mode, and then playing back 2D content through D3D11 with madVR. Quote:
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One thought Shiandow and I were having is that maybe it would make sense to use the "clean" method for edges and the "detailed" method for non-edge areas? That would make things more complicated and quite a bit slower, though. Quote:
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9th February 2016, 11:31 | #35965 | Link |
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Here's a small comparison of SSIM "detailed" vs "clean" (using Linear Light 2.2 downscaling):
1) lighthouse: 2) asian letters: I think the first image shows that "detailed" can become rather nasty in some situations. It not only produces more aliasing but can sometimes also create rather wild artifacts. However, in the 2nd image "detailed" looks clearly (less blurry) better than "clean". So which method to use? What do you guys think? |
9th February 2016, 11:56 | #35966 | Link |
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The artifacts in detailed are not really acceptable, so for me I'd vote for clear. I'd take slight blurriness over obvious occasional artifacts anytime.
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9th February 2016, 12:00 | #35967 | Link | |
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edit: nvm, read that it was broken then. but as other said, perhaps ist possible to get rid of more aliasing.
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9th February 2016, 12:06 | #35968 | Link | |
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aside from that: is it possible to estimate which of the two should do better with regular UHD BD Content scaled down to 1080p or regular Blu-ray 1080p scaled down to 720p? I guess that should be the most common and useful formats the algorithm will be/should be used for. so perhaps simply take that one which looks better with these sources.
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Laptop Lenovo Legion 5 17IMH05: i5-10300H, 16 GB Ram, NVIDIA GTX 1650 Ti (+ Intel UHD 630), Windows 10 x64, madVR (x64), MPC-HC (x64), LAV Filter (x64), XySubfilter (x64) (K-lite codec pack) Last edited by Thunderbolt8; 9th February 2016 at 12:10. |
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9th February 2016, 12:11 | #35969 | Link | |
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Sometimes I really wonder why people even bother with chroma sub-sampling. |
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9th February 2016, 12:28 | #35970 | Link | |
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I tried re-setting madVR back to defaults and stopping playback worked (no stuck frame) but when I disabled all of the trade quality for performance options the problem returned again (strange). The problem only seems to happen with DVD playback using FSE mode and Zoom Player, windowed mode works without any problems. |
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9th February 2016, 12:44 | #35971 | Link | |
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I see ppl using sxbr150 in here, possibly with SSIM on top oh wow that's what I call sharpness lol..are they wearing prescription glasses made of polycarbonate(that comes with an astonishingly low constringence that makes everything blurry), TN panels with a coarse and grainy antiglare coating or possibly massively misconverged videoprojectors? I wonder. Exactly, completely unusable IME and "clean" isn't all that better due to its extreme sharpness Last edited by leeperry; 9th February 2016 at 13:40. |
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9th February 2016, 13:14 | #35972 | Link | ||
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The idea of using the "clean" method for edges and the "detailed" method for non-edge areas sounds promising to me. Quote:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/bs...ownscaling.rar Now I believe you will be convinced to add a trade quality option to restore the previous Linear Light downscaling method. The artifacts with the “detailed” algo in the lighthouse image are sort of unacceptable. So I think more tweaking is required for SSIM. Perhaps using a combination of “clean” and “detailed”, as you thought, may lead in the right direction. Edit 1: You may also want to check the downscaling results of the Lighthouse image using the previous Linear Light downscaling method where chroma was upscaled first. Edit 2: Oh the image is in RGB itself, so please ignore Edit 1. Last edited by omarank; 9th February 2016 at 14:51. |
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9th February 2016, 13:15 | #35973 | Link | ||
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9th February 2016, 13:44 | #35974 | Link |
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I would always go for the clean one, since the lighthouse basically shows that detailed looks so nasty that it's completely unacceptable. It's way overtuned, not anything that anyone could want if you're really about accurate downscaling. Detailed could probably work fine for very rare cases where your complete image is very unsharp to begin with or your downscaling factor is not too high, and the lighthouse picture basically is already pretty sharp anyway.
Just look at the lighthouse's top railing, where the clean picture looks just right, while detailed almost does not look like a rail anymore, but some edged mess that the detailed algorithm created out of just straight lines. It applies way too much aliasing. The same can be seen when you look at the house (garage) on the left of the image, where the fine structures create a moving aliased mess, again. The detailed algorithm also goes against anything that looks natural to me, because when you think about it, an object that is farther away is always going to look a bit more blurred, but that has nothing at all to do with a blurry picture in the first place, it's just that fine detail on more distant objects will naturally melt together. If you apply detailed to the image, it will over-pronounce the detail that is in front the most, therefore clean is a lot more natural, because it will work nice with the detailed areas in the front, but will also apply that to more distant objects to a natural degree. These two examples in the lighthouse picture are already enough to say that detailed can never be used without actually knowing, which content you feed madVR and you would also have to analyse all the content you feed it, on whether or not detailed would destroy the image (and quite possibly also create some really nasty shimmering scenes in a movie), which is just not the way you would want madVR to work. Sharpening is one of those post-processing "effects" that need to be applied only so much that you can perceive a slight sharpness increase, but you never dial it up so much that you can "see a completely new picture", erasing some of the old detail altogether and introducing shimmering or other nasty artifacts when we're not only talking about a still image. We want to "downscale accurately" based on the content we have and not downscale and create a new movie along with it. Maybe that can be optimized and we would need some reference pictures with already good fine detail, so we can figure out when exactly we are crossing the barrier. I would however vote against different SSIM parameters, we should choose and optimize one method and not concentrate on more complicated things. Clean looks pretty good to me as is, already, because you can see that even clean already has a slight edgy look to it, but that is just because we have a lower resolution and the algorithm tries to fit as much in as possible. PS: Your lighthouse example is rather low in resolution anyway, since both lighthouses are just about a bare ~128x128 pixels, which is WAY over-pronouncing the algorithm anyway, since the original has 1024x1536 pixels which is a really huge downscaling factor. Detailed probably looks better when your downscaling factor is not that stark to begin with. But even that won't change the fact that it just looks like detailed is way overtuned. Last edited by iSunrise; 9th February 2016 at 14:36. |
9th February 2016, 14:29 | #35975 | Link | |
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I btw. found out that bicubic 150 can be considered as sharper in general than SSIM for 4k -> WQHD, but the difference is that SSIM doesn't have an anti aliasing effect for aliasing of the source. This mostly occurs with game screenshots, but I think it's totally fine by definition. I think SSIM clean is still sharp enough. Detailed hardly has any advantages for typical downscaling factors, as our examples show, but its artifacts can be obtrusive. |
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9th February 2016, 15:02 | #35976 | Link | |||
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Has that decision now been reversed in 0.90.x? In which case, I'm going to have to try and find some time to start testing chroma scaling again, because I don't believe that this is going to produce the best quality results, and should be a "trade quality for performance" option instead. (perhaps even one enabled by default) I realize that I still need to get back to you on some of the issues that I reported with a 3D output, but unfortunately I just don't have the time for that at the moment, enabling 3D causes a few issues in my setup so I've had to remove it from the TV for now, and frankly my interest in 3D video is practically nil - at least while I still own a TV that uses active 3D instead of a 4K passive 3DTV. Quote:
Aren't there a ton of sharpening options in madVR now for people that want a sharper image anyway? Quote:
I don't really want to take things too off-topic here, but I think you are confusing "end-to-end" or "system gamma" where content is not intended to be viewed at the inverse of the BT.709 transfer function, with how mastering is performed. And if you are, then you are also mistaken in thinking that the best-fit curve for the BT.709 transfer function is 2.2 gamma - it's 1.96 Check page 21 in this EBU Tech paper for some detail on that. CRTs had an approximate 2.4 gamma response (2.35-2.50 depending on the source) and the new specification for master monitors (BT.1886) is to use 2.4 gamma when the display's contrast ratio exceeds 10,000:1 - which any good mastering monitor will. So I don't know where people are getting 2.2 from, other than the fact that PC monitors use 2.2 gamma. (to my knowledge, the sRGB transfer function was never actually in use, and only appeared as an option in calibration packages in the past five years) |
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9th February 2016, 15:52 | #35977 | Link | ||||||
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Ok, thanks for the SSIM feedback, everyone.
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Maybe the problem only shows in certain situations, e.g. with certain trade quality options set? Or with image enhancements activated? Or something else like that? Quote:
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9th February 2016, 16:18 | #35978 | Link |
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The artifacts for 'sharp' on the fence of the lighthouse images look pretty bad, but ignoring the bottom half of the image for a moment, I do think 'sharp' makes the lighthouse itself look better (though it's difficult to say whether it's more faithful to the original sharpness). The potential drawbacks of 'sharp' are too big right now, though (in addition to the problems with the fence, the roofs of the houses also look pretty jagged).
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9th February 2016, 16:42 | #35979 | Link | |
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By the way, I am not using any trade quality option or image enhancements. |
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9th February 2016, 17:16 | #35980 | Link | |
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http://madshi.net/melon907.png Totally different to your result. Please also try to reset to default settings. Are your screenshots created with the jpg as the source? Or did you use the video file? |
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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