madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[6233638]

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

What.
PAL is usually speed up from 24p, its not telecined (only very rarely, and its questionable if madVR would manage to find a 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 cadence).
IVTC will not help you to play these files/discs at 24p, only ReClock would.

I know that it's just 24p sped-up (or at least should be) and I do use ReClock to fix the speed.

However, when I enable madVR's deinterlacer at 24Hz, it does terrible things to the image. (flickering, combing, framerate drops etc.) Enabling IVTC and having it detect the 2:2 cadence (mostly) fixes this, however the 2:2 detection is not perfect. With the 5:4:4:3 sample posted above, I'm almost certain that whole film should be 2:2, and it's just that something is tripping up the cadence detection. That's why I'm wondering if there could be a "force 2:2" mode.

Letting LAV Video's CUVID deinterlace rather than madVR (without IVTC) avoids some of the visual artefacts, but has serious stuttering problems.
LAV Video's YADIF seems to work well for some discs, but not others. It tends to suffer from flicker and aliasing a lot more frequently.

Unfortunately with deinterlacing, how things are supposed to work often isn't what actually does. (unless there's something I'm missing)

Originally Posted by nevcairiel

In general however, PAL also uses Telecine, specifically to convert 25p progressive to 50i, a 2:2 cadence. IMHO, thats however of little importance for playback as a deinterlaced 50p stream also looks just fine.

If you are deinterlacing as 50p, aren't you halving the resolution with progressive (film) content?

With CUVID deinterlacing selecting 50p doesn't help, and with YADIF at 50p with the following sample, every frame has combing.

I'm sure that I've posted it before, or a similar sample, but here's a longer one from The Sweet Hereafter—I'm using that one a lot as it seems to be one of the most problematic discs I've tried. This sample sticks to 2:2 with IVTC enabled, as it should, but shows off exactly what goes wrong without IVTC at 24Hz. (unfortunately without any audio, Reclock won't load so it will drop one frame every second at 24Hz)

http://www.mediafire.com/?mxremvoqowk6mkw

Make sure your display is at 24Hz and not 48/50/60 before you test it. (25Hz may also work without adding that framedrop, but my display doesn't support it)

It deinterlaces fine at 50Hz—but then it's sped up, and my screen doesn't accept 48Hz.

Originally Posted by madshi

@6233638, it's supposed to work with any film content, including PAL and Anime. Anime content very often switches cadences from one scene to the next, or even from one movement section to another. E.g. camera pans are often 3:2, but if the camera doesn't move, you often have 5:5 or 8:7 or other cadences. It is not a sign of something going wrong if madVR switches cadences all the time, with Anime content. That said, most PAL Anime content is field blended and can't be IVTCed properly. Please only test with NTSC Anime content for now. As many samples as possible for problematic PAL non-Anime movie discs would be *much* appreciated.

Thanks for the reply. I don't really have much Anime stuff at all, it never really interested me until recently when I heard about things like Planetes which (so far) seems to be Sci-fi that is more grounded in reality rather than the more "Japanese" stuff out there, or dealing with aliens etc. so I probably won't have many more samples, and I don't plan on importing anything. (though I've had some "PAL" DVDs actually be 29.97 on the disc before)

I don't have a huge selection of DVD films left any more, most have been replaced with Blu-ray, but I'll definitely go through them to see if I can find any other troublesome titles to post samples from. Almost all will be PAL, as I stopped bothering to import since building a HTPC and using ReClock.

[Paladin77]

Originally Posted by whitestar999

i have an older 256mb redeon 4570 card in other laptop & it can't play those 2 files smoothly in full screen on a full HD screen.according to notebookcheck graphics card ranking 4570 is more powerful than 3430 so could you please post your madvr settings & catalyst driver version you are using.

Catalyst Version: latest 11.12 from AMD website.
MadVR settings: Scaling Algorithm: Bicubic 75 (less ringing, less resource load) and works like a charm on anime content (especially dark themed ones).
CPU queue: 12 (twelve).
GPU queue: 6 (six).
Backbuffer and ahead frames in windowed and fullscreen (respectively): 8 (eight).

Note: I lowered GPU queue on this system only being a lower end one. On other systems I generally don't mess with said queue.

Also as for your GPU driver. I prefer you check your laptop vendor website before downloading the Reference drivers from Nvidia website. http://in.asus.com/Notebooks/Versati...53SV/#download if the last update was too old (and newer changelogs in Nvidia website show serious improvement then you can contemplate using reference drivers. Otherwise it isn't generally recommended).

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by 6233638

If you are deinterlacing as 50p, aren't you halving the resolution with progressive (film) content?

Not if the deinterlacer is doing a good job.
At least the HW deinterlaces have cadence detection (or are supposed to), and if everything is working right, it should detect the 2:2 cadence and output the same frame twice if i ask it for 50p.

[madshi]

It's true that DXVA should in theory be able to properly handle PAL IVTC. Unfortunately, at least my ATI cards mistake some PAL movies as video content and apply video mode deinterlacing instead of IVTC. There's no control with DXVA, you can't even ask which mode the GPU is using. I think madVR's IVTC (after some tweaking) should beat ATI/NVidia's IVTC solution in quality/reliability, plus madVR's solution properly decimates, says what it does and can be controlled manually.

@6233638, your PAL Animes all seem to be field blended, so IVTC won't work on them. Your Sweet Hereafter samples are good. The 5:4:4:3 error should be easy to fix. Basically the current madVR version switches cadences too quickly right now. madVR should exit a found and confirmed cadence only if there is strong evidence that it's necessary. Implementing that should fix the 5:4:4:3 problem.

[FlashGordon]

madshi, is there a reason why the frame rate is still reported as 29.97 when I turn IVTC on? I've done further testing on hard telecined film material in 24hz mode using both LAV Video and ffdshow in MPC-HC, and while the playback is smooth (and looks like 23.976 fps) it is being reported as 29.97. I use ReClock so it is a minor issue for me, with Dscaler's IVTC I get 23.976 FPS reported correctly.

On another note, I think this may have been brought up before, but it would be great if madvr would remember the last setting regarding Video mode or Film mode for deinterlacing; I mostly watch films so it save me having to Ctrl alt shift T every time

[6233638]

Originally Posted by madshi

@6233638, your PAL Animes all seem to be field blended, so IVTC won't work on them.

Good to know. I guess there's no way to properly deinterlace them and avoid flickering then?

Originally Posted by madshi

Your Sweet Hereafter samples are good. The 5:4:4:3 error should be easy to fix. Basically the current madVR version switches cadences too quickly right now. madVR should exit a found and confirmed cadence only if there is strong evidence that it's necessary. Implementing that should fix the 5:4:4:3 problem.

Excellent!


Update: A new sample for you:
http://www.mediafire.com/?cicxx9u4crfkb5o

Cadence is detected as 3:2, but there's a lot of flickering/aliasing and combing. Not sure if this is something going wrong with the deinterlacing or if it's a really bad source. (it's a really bad film, so I wouldn't be surprised!)

[LigH]

Originally Posted by madshi

@nevcairiel, do you have a 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 sample? I'm pretty sure that the madVR algorithm would be potentially able to identify such a cadence, too. It just doesn't look for cadences that long atm.

Do it yourself:

scharfis_brain – exotisches Interlacing 2.2.1b: Telecine without PAL speedup, interlaced

Simulate with:

AVISource("24fpsFilm.avi")
ChangeFPS(50).SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()

[nlnl]

madshi
Another sample of 3:2:3:2:2 cadence in NTSC dvd (in mkv). If madvr in film mode we see combing and everything is good in video mode.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43376972/Cad...322%20num2.mkv

And a patent on 2:2 cadence detection
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...11120600A1.pdf

[dukey]

Automatic IVTC is one of the hardest topics in video. A lot of TV especially are just an insane mix of 24/30fps content. 30fps fades, and post production at 30fps. Even if you can IVTC properly you can be left with residual interlacing from the fact the 2 fields were encoded separately then put back together. So sometimes you'll need to deinterlace even after IVTC. The situation is not so bad on DVD since normally they use pull down flags.

[secvensor]

Error in MPC-HC:
on
when pressing
Hoot-Key "PageDown"

[JarrettH]

There I deleted it for you...

[CruNcher]

@madshi
are there plans for a Sync Graph like MPC-HC (Gothsyncs implementation) has it the diagnostics display is nice (numbers) but a Graph makes it much easier to see issues either inside the stream or system related almost in realtime (depending on the latency) im really surprised how much stream,decoder,system related issues i could immediately spot now having low enough render latency and no other noise around see http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=351

having a similar "Realtime" Graphical representation for madvr would be really nice

[THX-UltraII]

Hoi Madshi

Since 0.80 I have some lip sync issues. Most of the times I don t have problems but I get lip sync issues when I pauze and start playing again. To solve this I have to pauze/play a few times until it the video/audio is in sync again. Didn t had this problem with 0.79. How can I help to find out what causes this in 0.80?

[Razoola]

Originally Posted by THX-UltraII

Hoi Madshi

Since 0.80 I have some lip sync issues. Most of the times I don t have problems but I get lip sync issues when I pauze and start playing again. To solve this I have to pauze/play a few times until it the video/audio is in sync again. Didn t had this problem with 0.79. How can I help to find out what causes this in 0.80?

I found I had lip sync issue with 080 if I had 'overshoot max frame latency' checked in the full screen exclusive mode settings. Disabling that fixed lipsync problems but caused stutters and real bad presentation glitches. I had to go back to 079.

Madshi has not commented on my issue with 080 yet (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=11633) but I am sure he has seen it. I feel he wants to get IVTC issues sorted first.

[nlnl]

madshi
In every NTSC film (DVD) I played Madvr very well detects 3:2 cadence.
In three cases it detects 3:2:3:2:2 cadence (posted sample above).

And here is a sample of exotic 4:4 cadence in 50i container (animation). Madvr detects it very well! So in fact this animation is 12,5p film (after IVTC)?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43376972/cadence%204%204.mkv

[FlashGordon]

@madshi

I watched a few silent films on DVD last night (these sometimes have odd cadences, I think because the transfer is done at a rate less than 24) and your IVTC algorithm worked very well. It cycled through 4:3:3, 3:3:2:2, and an 'unknown' cadence and it looked very smooth. Before, with DScaler, it would detect only 3:2 and decimate to 24 but I'd still get combing, so I was forced to deinterlace film content. Not anymore... thanks for the feature!

[mikewando]

This isn't exactly related to the renderer per se, but I figured this thread might be the best place to ask.

Is there any way the deinterlacing and IVTC used in madVR could be leveraged for encoding (e.g. avisynth filter)? It seems to me that it would make sense to use the GPU to deinterlace while the CPU encodes, and madVR has shown that the GPU is up to the task, but I couldn't really find anything that would really work like this.

Just a thought, but it's a little annoying to watch a transport stream be perfectly IVTC'd by madVR, while being forced to use slow filters that eat up CPU for encoding.

[Plutotype]

Originally Posted by Razoola

I found I had lip sync issue with 080 if I had 'overshoot max frame latency' checked in the full screen exclusive mode settings. Disabling that fixed lipsync problems but caused stutters and real bad presentation glitches. I had to go back to 079.

Madshi has not commented on my issue with 080 yet (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...ostcount=11633) but I am sure he has seen it. I feel he wants to get IVTC issues sorted first.

0.80 - Watched a 100min blu-ray today with the same settings as usual and at the end of the movie, the lipsync issue was definately there. CPU 5-7%, pls see my specs. I did watch the same file already in december with no issues ( 0.79 ), so maybe something really went wrong with 0.80 in this area.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by Plutotype

0.80 - Watched a 100min blu-ray today with the same settings as usual and at the end of the movie, the lipsync issue was definately there. CPU 5-7%, pls see my specs. I did watch the same file already in december with no issues ( 0.79 ), so maybe something really went wrong with 0.80 in this area.

Are you only having lip-sync issues with Blu-ray? If so, are you starting the video with the "index.bdmv" file, or the .m2ts video file?

While using LAV Filters has enabled me to start a film using the index.bdmv file (previously it wouldn't work) I find that it causes lip-sync problems, when playing the .m2ts file directly does not, so I suspect it might be a LAV Filters issue rather than madVR. (but I haven't tested either in isolation so I couldn't say for sure)

Originally Posted by Razoola

I found I had lip sync issue with 080 if I had 'overshoot max frame latency' checked in the full screen exclusive mode settings. Disabling that fixed lipsync problems but caused stutters and real bad presentation glitches. I had to go back to 079.

What driver version are you using?

I'm definitely back to having problems getting smooth playback again, but then I am also on beta Nvidia drivers. I really should test to see whether it's the drivers or a change in madVR (by coincidence, new versions of madVR are often close to driver releases) but it's annoying either way, as I can't stick to WHQL drivers if I want to play the latest games.

[nevcairiel]

Originally Posted by 6233638

While using LAV Filters has enabled me to start a film using the index.bdmv file (previously it wouldn't work) I find that it causes lip-sync problems, when playing the .m2ts file directly does not, so I suspect it might be a LAV Filters issue rather than madVR. (but I haven't tested either in isolation so I couldn't say for sure)

If changing madVR version fixes his sync issues, how is that the splitters fault?