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14th February 2019, 08:28 | #54721 | Link | |
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On my TV, I already tried comparing 1080p (upscaled with NGU Sharp) and 2160p bluray ISOs or remuxes of the same movie. As said by someone in a previous post, I only found minor differences when I looked for them on specific shots with sharp textures (and even then, only wheen rubbing my nose on the screen). In real life, moving content, it's almost impossible. I would have told you the same a week ago, but I'm not even sure of that anymore. I bought Mass Effect Andromeda on PS4 Pro last week to see if it was as bad as everyone said it was (spoiler alert : it's actually a very good game). The game is badly optimized and the PS4 Pro struggles with a 4K output (which is, I believe, "only" 1800p upscaled to 2160p by the console), rendering the game at less than a constant 30fps and it was driving me mad to see the game stutter. So I tried setting the PS4 Pro to output 1080p and let my LG 55C8 do the upscaling, expecting at least a slightly blurry picture I could have lived with. I didn't even get that and honestly can't tell the difference between 1800p upscaled to 2160p by the console, or 1080p upscaled to 2160p by the TV. I didn't even notice an increase in input lag... Last edited by Charky; 14th February 2019 at 09:31. |
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14th February 2019, 09:23 | #54722 | Link |
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I was used to watching a 120" screen at 1.5-2m. Form that I realised it was viewing angle that mattered - not screen size. When watching something with a ton of resolution that's formatted for an IMAX screen (e.g. Dunkirk) I sit 0.7m away from a 65" OLED. That gives the same viewing angle as a real IMAX Laser theatre but with real black and a ton more contrast. When you sit in pitch black and have a velvet curtain laden bat cave for a projector after an adjustment period your brain is fooled into thinking it's a huge screen. My fetish for large viewing angles has always made me interested in MadVR's NGU Sharp - and I do love it up close. From 40 degree viewing angles though, it's not worth it.
That's exactly what I was doing prior to the Popcorn Hour A100 and before that I had a Haupaggue Show Center. I got real fed up with it. I also have plenty of dedicated players (LG's own internal player, Shield, Apple TV, VTEN for 3D) so I've told myself if my HTPC messes up when watching a movie - rather than trying to fix it on the fly I'll flip to the dedicated player. That way you only lose at max 60 seconds and don't ruin the enjoyment of your movie/tv show. Then go and fix it the next day. |
14th February 2019, 10:31 | #54723 | Link | |
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That said, I'm no ophthalmologist (or your mother ), but I'm not sure watching a panel this big so close for long periods of time is very good for your eyes (and it's certainly not what most of us would call normal viewing distance ) |
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14th February 2019, 10:54 | #54724 | Link | |
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And I have to say that previously it didn't worth for me to watch 4k hdr content with hdr2sdr 3dlut or the latest release v92.17 pixelshader: the image was not on pair with fullhd bluray. But now, if I can, I always choose 4k hdr or 4k over fullhd content.
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14th February 2019, 11:08 | #54725 | Link | |
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TBH I've never really looked into this because, as of recently, I didn't have the horsepower in my HTPC to properly play and downscale UHD sources. |
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14th February 2019, 19:30 | #54726 | Link |
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I'm sure you're aware that there are a lot of charts and online calculators for viewing distance and angular resolution. I like this because it takes into account the visual acuity:
http://phrogz.net/tmp/ScreenDens2In.html In my case with a 65'' screen at 1.5 m I can definitely see the difference between 4k and upscaled 1080p. But yeah, the content matters, I've been watching 4k transfers of old movies and the only benefit seems to be limited to the film grain. |
14th February 2019, 20:06 | #54727 | Link |
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On a 55"4K OLED , 2.5M distance with just 4K res and no HDR , for me it is very noticable. Much more detail and drawing distance , add HDR in the mix and my experience is usually jaw-dropping , especially if it's not a 2k upscale UHD disc/content
It's of course very important to have the right MadVR settings (see Asmodian's High Settings and tune down where necessary, till you hit 20-30ms with smooth playback) I finally got Tonemapping working yesterday on 'just a GTX1060' and ca't wait to push it further with a RTX2070 in 6 weeks Try opening scene of Blue Planet II (the wave scene, starts after a min or 2) After getting my new GPU I will get my hands dirty with a DisplayPro colorimeter and the several cailbration software that I've collecting ... can't wait ! This is very much like the 'upgraderitus with audio' , a 100x more complicated, but luckily much cheaper ;-)
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15th February 2019, 00:35 | #54731 | Link |
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Well, it is quite basic knowledge of video processing:
If it is telecined (Film => NTSC), use Inverse Telecine (IVTC); else - if it is interlaced, use a deinterlacer (preferably with bobber to double the frame rate). And if it is a cartoon, optimize manually. And if it is messed up by a norm conversion, dump it. More details: "exotic interlacing" by scharfis_brain (English translation hosted by StainlessS). "Difficult" is no sensible expression in this topic. I own a DVD which has been destroyed beyond repair by a failed attempt to deinterlace it in the studio providing the original content (Kiriku). Last edited by LigH; 15th February 2019 at 00:38. |
15th February 2019, 01:43 | #54732 | Link |
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madVR ivtc can detect all kinds of pattern so "cartoon" is pretty much no difference for it then film.
PsF pal is technically telecine too and using ivtc instead of deinterlancing is usually better to or deactivating deinterlancing. the "best" deinterlancer we currently have in madVR is video deinterlancing which is frame adaptive on all GPUs |
15th February 2019, 01:53 | #54733 | Link | |
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To notice the difference between 4K and 2K, that requires quite a close viewing distance. This is problematic in that you see so little of the frame. So are we watching the movie, or trying to find little pixels ? It might work as a technical standard, but it's simply impractical to be CLOSE ENOUGH , all for the sake of discerning ppi. We're interested in the Whole picture. And that's fundamentally how they came up with the 2K standard to begin with. They knew that Limitation for comfort viewing is well out at 2-4 meters for most sizes of TV screens. And THAT being the limiting factor, they applied the acuity function and decided ~2K resolution is more than sufficient. I'm not against 4K, but you can't apply the acuity function backwards, and say, let's sit this close, because we have to notice these 2 lines are different lines.
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15th February 2019, 01:57 | #54734 | Link | |
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Probably for the worse.. because Now I am always looking at Spectrometers to go with the i1display, which is only a colorimeter. Once you get i1dp, the image is much better, but then you realize, it's still WRONG, because you don't have the spectral correction data.. and for whatever reason, spectrometers are ~$1000+, recommended ones are $3000 (Before recertification)
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15th February 2019, 03:31 | #54735 | Link | |
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15th February 2019, 04:41 | #54737 | Link | |
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That is incorrect. The resting vergence distance for the eye is ~1.5meter The natural relaxed focal distance of the eye's lens is ~1.5meter This is minimal distance something should be viewed when considering Viewing Comfort. 2-4 meter is absolutely the proper distance given the size of most people's domiciles and the availability of screen sizes. Farther is always better if not constrained by Size of equipment or Space.
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15th February 2019, 10:40 | #54738 | Link |
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The thing I don't understand all viewing distances aside, is that people say you need to spend X on a really good OLED TV with HDR and High Nits, yet everyone says the most common TVs still do not have a high enough brightness for HDR.
You see comments on TV threads saying well your TV is only 350 NITS, so you do not have proper HDR etc etc. But yet you have madshi and others tweaking the heck out of HDR-SDR on projectors with even lower NITS and they are saying that they don't want to use HDR passthrough as it looks so much better. So if HDR relies on brightness, how can you make SDR look better ? |
15th February 2019, 10:52 | #54739 | Link | |
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Let's suppose we have a 120 nits device. Standard fullhd bluray is maxing out at 100 nits. With hdr10 the same 100 nits rule applies and the values above 100 reserved for highlights only. So, in our case we have 20 nits to squash every highlights in. But don't ask what happens with projectors that only capable of 50 nits And that's the "beauty" of the whole topic: everybody can only talk about his/her setup/display without seeing anything else right beside of it! Because it's not that easy to drag around 55-65" displays (compared to a mobile phone) to your friends' house to make comparison
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15th February 2019, 11:06 | #54740 | Link |
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Makes sense. I would just like a simple calibration setup for HDR, as I think its great to have all these options, but unless your TV has even the simplest calibration you are chasing your tail.
But I cant see anything tutorial wise that is for setting up basic HDR as a starting point, all the reviews you read say turn everything off, but don't touch this or that, and thats all you have left to try and get a good picture, so lost with HDR tbh. Especially when every TV manufacturer labels options differently. Last edited by madjock; 15th February 2019 at 11:28. |
Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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