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Old 31st July 2019, 19:38   #57001  |  Link
svengun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
It will be a bit complicated than that (I wanted to find my previous post about this but I couldn't):
- basically, since both of your Philips 65OLED803 and LG OLED EG920V TV are HDR capable, you want to passthrough the HDR content to them
- meaning you can't use external 3dlut with hdr content!
- you can only use external 3dlut with SDR content
Hey Chros,

HDR looks like shit , when I use that option , it's really dark and has very few 'sparkle highlights'

I know it is intended for projectors , but I am getting amazing results now and I have many many options to tweak it

It was only until recently , that I was really happy with result on my new Philips in regards to HDR.

Two Things did that:

1- using the BT709 (old) 3DLUT , shared by Madshi

2- Tonemapping (using Measurement files v 86) (My favo option and my current one, I'm using NEO-XP's latest config settings, he's on the AVSforum)

Using the live algo for HDR measurements should be providing way better results than the (static) HDR10. I think this is comparable , but even better than using HDR Meta Data like HDR10+ or DV (current results with this normal brightness, incredibly sharp , beautiful colors and amazing HDR)

I don't understand why I could not use a calibration 3DLUT , I intend to make a 709 & a bt2020 (DCI-P3) one, using DisplayCAL

I think your last 'dashed' remark is incorrect. U CAN use bt709 as an external 3DLUT , WHEN your are tonemaping to SDR, this will show HDR on ur TV , ur TV just won't tell you that is it is an HDR signal

Please elaborate ;-)

I purchased an X-rite i1Display Pro for 230 euro's just for that....
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Last edited by svengun; 1st August 2019 at 08:20.
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Old 1st August 2019, 12:25   #57002  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
What's the use case for the "tone map HDR using external 3DLUT" madVR option, then?
In latest stable madvr:
- it adds the possibility to do "static" hdr2sdr conversion which is waaay faster than the dynamic tonemapping implementation of the test versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
HDR looks like shit , when I use that option , it's really dark and has very few 'sparkle highlights'
- which TV are we talking about? newer Philips or the older LG
- which option? hdr passthrough?

Then something is not right with your setup, it should be clearly way better with it than with madvr's dynamic tonemapping.

Doesn't the Philips TV have dynamic tonemapping implementation as the newer LGs do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
Using the live algo for HDR measurements should be providing way better results than the (static) HDR10.
Not necessary, it depends It's not that simple, is it?

- you are/can be right if you use madvr dynamic tonemapping with your TV in SDR mode
-- do you? if so, in which nits setting?
- or you could use it as @SamuriHL does / did
- or you could "just" passthrough to the display and let it does its job (that's what I use, and here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
I don't understand why I could not use a calibration 3DLUT
You can't with passtrhough.
You can with madvr's dynamic tonempaiing + your TV in SDR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
I intend to make a 709 & a bt2020 (DCI-P3) one, using DisplayCAL
There's no need for 2 3dluts: just create a DCI-P3 for the widest gamut your TV can provide and madvr will handle the rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
I think your last 'dashed' remark is incorrect. U CAN use bt709 as an external 3DLUT , WHEN your are tonemaping to SDR,
But I was talking about HDR passthrough!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
U CAN use bt709 as an external 3DLUT , WHEN your are tonemaping to SDR, this will show HDR on ur TV , ur TV just won't tell you that is it is an HDR signa
No, it won't for multiple reasons:
- what nits settings do you get on your TV with your current settings? (I assume it's not HDR mode) 120 / 140 / 150 nits?
- if you try to go higher in your TV setting in SDR mode, you will get ABL that will ruin everything (there are at least 3 (!) different ABL algo on recent LG Oleds)
- you can't compete a ~700 nits HDR video with a 150 nits tonemapped SDR signal

That's why that beta thread on avsforum has the "projectors" in its title
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Last edited by chros; 1st August 2019 at 12:30.
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Old 1st August 2019, 12:31   #57003  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
In latest stable madvr:
- it adds the possibility to do "static" hdr2sdr conversion which is waaay faster than the dynamic tonemapping implementation of the test versions.
You can also do plain HDR 3D LUTs with HDR output with DisplayCal with a BT.2390 tone curve.
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Old 1st August 2019, 13:17   #57004  |  Link
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@svengun

What's that "BT709 (old) 3DLUT, shared by Madshi"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
- which TV are we talking about? newer Philips or the older LG
- which option? hdr passthrough?

Then something is not right with your setup, it should be clearly way better with it than with madvr's dynamic tonemapping.
I think he means that passthrough usually looks pretty dark compared to uncalibrated SDR, which I agree with, but it shouldn't look that bad in a dim environment, which is the reference. Using low target nits solves that, and probably dynamic target nits too.

BTW, I didn't know that OLEDs had such a low peak 100% window.
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Old 1st August 2019, 14:04   #57005  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
@svengun

What's that "BT709 (old) 3DLUT, shared by Madshi"?

http://madshi.net/DisplayCal400Nits709.rar

I think he means that passthrough usually looks pretty dark compared to uncalibrated SDR, which I agree with, but it shouldn't look that bad in a dim environment, which is the reference. Using low target nits solves that, and probably dynamic target nits too.

BTW, I didn't know that OLEDs had such a low peak 100% window.
This TV has one of the highest nits luminance , 850 nits. Vincent Teoh gives it high praises
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Old 1st August 2019, 14:05   #57006  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
- which TV are we talking about? Philips (870 nits) - which option? hdr passthrough? Yes , via Samsung UHD player it looks fine , passthrough HDR in MadVR looks dark & dull
If I use tonemapping to SDR or report as HDR , both looks really good

Doesn't the Philips TV have dynamic tonemapping implementation as the newer LGs do? I don't know. The TV get's very high ratings , see: https://www.flatpanelshd.com/review....&id=1539059646 and also Vincent Teoh's review on youtube . It also won the EISA award for 2018/19 best buy OLED TV. It uses an LG 2018 panel met 2nd rev, which has improvements and also reaches 100nits more luminance


Not necessary, it depends It's not that simple, is it?

- you are/can be right if you use madvr dynamic tonemapping with your TV in SDR mode
-- do you? if so, in which nits setting? I use value 202 and it looks stunning
- or you could use it as @SamuriHL does / did
- or you could "just" passthrough to the display and let it does its job (that's what I use, and here)


You can't with passtrhough.
You can with madvr's dynamic tonempaiing + your TV in SDR.


There's no need for 2 3dluts: just create a DCI-P3 for the widest gamut your TV can provide and madvr will handle the rest. Thanks for the tip !


But I was talking about HDR passthrough!!!

haha OK, my bad. I am super happy with the result now, no need to switch to passthrough , I also now have the possibility to tweak things to my liking, which I see as a benifit to passthrough

You know what? Tonight I'll make to some screenshots with MPC-BE , showing tonemapping versus passthrough, also showing CONTROL-J OSD

I have read that with this Philips TV, when using a PC , I should put the TV on 'Monitor mode' but that mode doesn't except Full RGB (which is annoying and stupid)

I know this all started to improve PJ's , not TV's, but I'm not the only one using it for an OLED. NEO-XP also uses it for his OLED



No, it won't for multiple reasons:
- what nits settings do you get on your TV with your current settings? (I assume it's not HDR mode) 120 / 140 / 150 nits? >> 202

850 nits translates to 202 , see

- if you try to go higher in your TV setting in SDR mode, you will get ABL that will ruin everything (there are at least 3 (!) different ABL algo on recent LG Oleds)
- you can't compete a ~700 nits HDR video with a 150 nits tonemapped SDR signal

That's why that beta thread on avsforum has the "projectors" in its title
(see my anwsers directly after your questions/remarks)
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Old 1st August 2019, 14:26   #57007  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
... NEO-XP also uses it for his OLED ...
Neo_XP doesn't have a HDR capable OLED TV but an earlier model, just telling ...
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Old 1st August 2019, 14:32   #57008  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Neo_XP doesn't have a HDR capable OLED TV but an earlier model, just telling ...
ah, I did not know that ;-)

I thought that the 1st gen OLED's started with UHD support. My LG is from late 2016 , also has HDR , but a max of 420 nits...
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Old 1st August 2019, 15:20   #57009  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
In latest stable madvr:
- it adds the possibility to do "static" hdr2sdr conversion which is waaay faster than the dynamic tonemapping implementation of the test versions.
Ah that's why. I'm using a test build and sometimes I forget what was missing in the latest official release (which is now getting a bit old and lacking a lot of stuff, tbh), sorry about that.
There is an option in the test build to use a HDR2HDR 3DLUT now (with settings for the output gamut and HDR nits) but I don't know how if it gives good results in practice.
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Old 1st August 2019, 15:42   #57010  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svengun View Post
(see my anwsers directly after your questions/remarks)

No, it won't for multiple reasons:
- what nits settings do you get on your TV with your current settings? (I assume it's not HDR mode) 120 / 140 / 150 nits? >> 202

850 nits translates to 202 , see
You're misreading that chart. That tells you where the knee point where the tone mapping roll-off begins is placed relative to the measured frame peak brightness.

202 target peak nits translates to 202 nits of SDR brightness. If your display is actually calibrated to 202 nits in SDR mode, you are largely getting 1:1 representation of 0-100 nits for most scenes up to 1,000 nits frame peak brightness and the remaining 102 nits (202 nits - 100 nits) is allocated to rolling off the specular highlights in each scene.

If your display is calibrated to less than 202 nits in SDR mode, then you are rolling off some of the image towards black at the ratio of 202 nits to your actual calibrated SDR brightness (e.g., 202 target nits / 150 SDR nits = 1.35x darker representation of the source values).

If your display is calibrated above 202 nits, then 202 target peak nits in madVR would brighten the mastered PQ source values by some amount.

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Old 1st August 2019, 22:06   #57011  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
- or you could use it as @SamuriHL does / did
That's how I'm still using it and it works very well for me. I use measurement files with the latest test builds and I'm outputting HDR in madvr with a target nits of ~700. I keep dynamic tone mapping enabled on the C8. It's really the same type of setup I have with my UB820, as well. In both cases, it works very well....FOR ME. YMMV.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 04:57   #57012  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Can you right-click on the video and get any of the other MPC-BE options to show? Are you using fullscreen exclusive mode? If so, try disabling it.
Hi Warner306. When the fault is occurring, when I right click, nothing happens. No context menu appears at all. I wasn't using fullscreen exclusive mode and have enabled it to see if that helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
You could also check madVR setting Rendering/Exclusive mode/Show seek bar.
Hi brazen. Yes, this is enabled. No luck in resolving the fault.

Thanks guys. I'll do some more testing in fullscreen exclusive mode.

Cheers,

Allan
..........................................................

edit:

Tried fullscreen exclusive mode but had to disable it as video would flash black a then maroon. Back to the drawing board.

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Old 2nd August 2019, 15:10   #57013  |  Link
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Hello everyone!

Guys need your support because I'm going crazy here.

My setup was:

- Sony LED XD93 (4K, HDR)
- AVR (4K, HDR)
- Nvidia 1070
- Madvr updated to last version
- MCP BE
- HDR option off in Windows

Everything was running good (24p, 4k, HDR movies) with RGB Full and 12 bit sett in nvidia settings and player, 10 bit or more in madvr setting and 3dlut file in madvr for the calibration (calibrated to DCI P3). Nothing else relevant that I feel to point out.

Yesterday I changed the TV with a new OLED GZ950 by Panasonic and when I tested MPC I noticed some problem: with HDR I noticed a lot of blocking and the whites were more pink than white. Obviously I deactivated the 3dlut proflies and switched to "this display is already calibrated" setting 2020 and 2.2 gamma. I use madvr only for 4K HDR Movies and my TV switch to HDR and BT2020 with 2.2 gamma. I checked online and I figured out that I was using the internal codes (which were fine before...) and someone suggested to reinstall and use LAV Filters. I did it and it made the situation much much better but I still can see some blocking and banding and the whites still have some noticeable pink.

I have to clarify that this problem apparently it's present only with the HTPC and Madvr since Netflix, the PS4 and other apps/devices do not have these issues at all (with or without HDR).

I tried everything: reinstalling the nvidia drivers, changing the bit depths in Madvr, changing the gamut in the TV Settings (DCI-P3 looks a bit better/less pink but I lose a lot in general color...) but nothing solved the problems: some blocks, noticeable banding and the pink.

Last note: if I turn on windows HDR and watch an HDR movie with VLC everything is fine but I do not want to lose madvr quality.
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Old 2nd August 2019, 21:23   #57014  |  Link
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Are you using HDMI 1? Is your cable up to spec?
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Old 2nd August 2019, 22:10   #57015  |  Link
Knight77
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Originally Posted by ryrynz View Post
Are you using HDMI 1? Is your cable up to spec?
I am using HDMI 2 which is the arc one. My cable was good enough before so I can't see why wouldn't be good now. My other TV was a Sony 4K HDR 2016mid/High range...



Any PC or madvr setting I need to check? After further test I can confirm that mainly the problem is the pink tint (you can't see it on the whole mage but if you check you can see it on clouds r similar) and banding. The blocks issue is quite minor even if actually there but mainly you see it in certain scenes.

P.S. the source files are very very high quality 4K HDR
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Old 2nd August 2019, 22:56   #57016  |  Link
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If you think the problem is madVR then try the EVR.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 03:29   #57017  |  Link
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Is SLI expected to help madvr? I have 2x2080 Ti in SLI/NVLink and I noticed that the 2nd GPU is under 20% load with madvr (dxva2 copyback). I was under the impression that SLI doesnt add much to madvr but seeing this I am wondering if I can get both GPUs to share the load more effectively? I have maxed out my usual settings in NGU etc and the rendering times are still about 20ms with 1st gpu at 50% load and 2nd at about 20%. Running at 4k 120hz.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 08:59   #57018  |  Link
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To what I've read , MadVR doesn't support it
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Old 3rd August 2019, 13:06   #57019  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight77 View Post
Hello everyone!

Guys need your support because I'm going crazy here.

My setup was:

- Sony LED XD93 (4K, HDR)
- AVR (4K, HDR)
- Nvidia 1070
- Madvr updated to last version
- MCP BE
- HDR option off in Windows

Everything was running good (24p, 4k, HDR movies) with RGB Full and 12 bit sett in nvidia settings and player, 10 bit or more in madvr setting and 3dlut file in madvr for the calibration (calibrated to DCI P3). Nothing else relevant that I feel to point out.

Yesterday I changed the TV with a new OLED GZ950 by Panasonic and when I tested MPC I noticed some problem: with HDR I noticed a lot of blocking and the whites were more pink than white. Obviously I deactivated the 3dlut proflies and switched to "this display is already calibrated" setting 2020 and 2.2 gamma. I use madvr only for 4K HDR Movies and my TV switch to HDR and BT2020 with 2.2 gamma. I checked online and I figured out that I was using the internal codes (which were fine before...) and someone suggested to reinstall and use LAV Filters. I did it and it made the situation much much better but I still can see some blocking and banding and the whites still have some noticeable pink.

I have to clarify that this problem apparently it's present only with the HTPC and Madvr since Netflix, the PS4 and other apps/devices do not have these issues at all (with or without HDR).

I tried everything: reinstalling the nvidia drivers, changing the bit depths in Madvr, changing the gamut in the TV Settings (DCI-P3 looks a bit better/less pink but I lose a lot in general color...) but nothing solved the problems: some blocks, noticeable banding and the pink.

Last note: if I turn on windows HDR and watch an HDR movie with VLC everything is fine but I do not want to lose madvr quality.
It sounds like an issue with the 3D LUT. Do you get correct colors without the 3D LUT? Have you tried checking report BT.2020 to display under calibration?

With a Panasonic GZ950, you should get a better picture by sending the HDR source to the display with passthrough. Panasonic follows the SDR range 1:1 with the PQ curve and does its gamut mapping with correct colorimetry. It can also do dynamic tone mapping of the specular highlights in each scene. That, or compress the HDR source with pixel shaders in madVR and send it as HDR to the display.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 16:47   #57020  |  Link
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