madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[cyberbeing]

Lanczos3 anti-ringing for Luma does seem like a good option with madVRantiringing6. Still a bit softer than normal Spline36 on the 720p sample because of the issue ryrynz mentioned, but it retains fine contrast slightly better than Spline64 anti-ringing. Though both Spline36 and Spline64 seem considerably better at interpolation of gradients, at the expense of less fine contrast.

As madshi mentioned, both Lanczos4 & Lanczos8 do show residual dark/bright ringing with the test6 build.

@madshi
Would it be possible to add some sharper Spline interpolators to madVR for testing with anti-ringing?
Spline144 (6-tap 12x12) and Spline256 (8-tap 16x16)?
Related thread about calculating Spline coefficients & avisynth filter source code

[Owyn]

Originally Posted by madshi

Here's a new test build

I tried it and the resize crashing is still there Are my reports enought or would you need a full dump or something else?

[madshi]

@Owyn, I'm currently only working on anti-ringing, nothing else. Bugs etc have to wait until I find some time. To be honest, I shouldn't even work on anti-ringing. Just couldn't resist...

[chros]

Originally Posted by chros

On performance wise using Chroma Lanczos3 + antiringing on 1080p@24Hz:
- v6 is slower than v5, but a little faster than v4

Can you make faster the chroma antiringing function as it was with v5?

I have accidently copied back the original 0.82.5 files, and the chroma upsampling (eg. Mitchell-Netravalli) is way too faster than v6 and v5 builds without Antiringing! How could this be?
Tested on a 1080i@30fps clip too ...

[Netuser]

Originally Posted by Netuser

Hi,

I have pass to madvr and Lav filter setup and I have amazing quality and no more problem with Full HD playback

Thanks so much madshi

But I have 2 problem and I don't know if in futur version of madvr you can implement them.

1- I watch a lot of Vob of music videos and often old videos are 4/3 and boxed, before with ffdshow I use to use a script called LameAutoCrop which automatically crop the black border so that I can watch the clip in full screen and don't have to zoom each time. Is there anyway you can add this option ? or a way to adopt it ?

2- problem is that I can not take screenshot in MPC-HC when I use madvr i have to switch to other output option in MPC to do so. are you planning to add this option in future ?

Thanks a lot

Sorry for bumping

[ryrynz]

Madshi, if you're having to compromise anti-ringing quality for performance could you allow for a HQ option? I'm only interested in overall improving quality, I don't care about the performance hit, I'll upgrade if I need to.

[Boltron]

+1 to that

[Hprd]

Aye.

My preference is to have minimum amounts (although as accurate to the source as possible as well) of aliasing with modest (although as minimum as possible, if possible) amounts of artifacts (ringing, blockiness, etc.) while maintaining maximum sharpness and detail. The current anti-ringing (build 6) seems to be very good, while using LZ3 with it on for both chroma and luma (with my preferences, which seems to be similar to many others). But if it can be done better (in whatever way) with some performance loss, even if it's only a little better IQ, it'd be worth it to have some kind of "HQ" option

[cyberbeing]

@ryrynz

I took a look at your sample, and it seems like the source frame does have faint areas on the lines. madVR anti-ringing appears to be preventing the dark ringing which actually had a positive effect on the lines of that sample, while the anti-ringing result may actually be a closer representation of the source pixels. I wonder if this is actually solvable without negative ringing side-effects on sharp high-contrast edges.

704x480 -> 1706x960 (800% crop):

Nearest Neighbor vs Spline36

Nearest Neighbor vs Spline36 anti-ringing

Spline36 vs Spline36 anti-ringing

[ryrynz]

I think what we can take away from this is that when resizing the most accurate isn't always the best solution. It thus looks like a good sample to use for refining anti-ringing the result of which could address some of your concerns also. I hope something good can come from it, eagerly awaiting your progress Madshi.

[djfred93]

Originally Posted by 6233638

[*]High bit-depth output. HTPCs are limited to 8-bit output with madVR right now, stand-alone players offer 10+bit output. (though many will "output" higher bit-depths than they are actually operating at internally) With madVR's 16-bit internal precision and dithering, I'd argue that it can still produce better results. It depends on the display device and the player you're comparing to. And hopefully at some point, madVR will output 10-bit or greater too.[*]Bitstreaming. PCs do not run their video and audio hardware off the same clocks, and so it's not possible to have them perfectly synced up. You either have to sacrifice bitstreaming (but if you're upsampling, this is moot) to have audio synced to the video without any dropped/repeated frames, or suffer dropped/repeated frames to have bitstreamed audio. This is a non-issue in my opinion, but some people love that light on their AVR and insist on wanting to bitstream.[*]3D support. I don't think there's any way to output 3D when running MPC-HC and madVR (though you can always have another player I guess?) I've had a 3DTV for close to two years now and I never use 3D any more so I don't really care.[/list]

- You can output in 10+bits with a pro video card like Firepro card or Quadro card.

- Bitstream is possible with ffdshow and other software.

- 3D support is possible in SBS... in MPC-HC. It's the MVC codec who isn't supported yet in MPC-HC.

[dansrfe]

What would 10bit actually provide or look like if not dithered down to 8bit? I know the benefits of encoding to 10bit (less banding, better compression, etc.) but since it gets dithered down to 8bit for the majority of displays which happen to be 8bit, I'm unsure about what I'm missing by not having a 10bit display.

[Keiyakusha]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

What would 10bit actually provide or look like if not dithered down to 8bit?

if your source was 8 bit before encoding then nothing. less banding is all youre going to get regardless of what display you plug in.
with real 10bit source (not from bluray or dvd) you maybe will see better picture if your eyes can distinguish more than 17 million colors
though i'm not aware of such sources other than some artificially created stuff where 10 bits matters mostly during processing. or actually i use up to 32bitdepth sometimes. not that it matters after stuff was rendered...
Edit: btw afaik there is no software that will allow you not to dither. whatever dither or truncate.

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by djfred93

- You can output in 10+bits with a pro video card like Firepro card or Quadro card.

With madVR? With any consumer player/renderer at all, for video?

- Bitstream is possible with ffdshow and other software.

That's not what 6233638 meant at all. Of course it is possible, but s/he listed the downsides.

- 3D support is possible in SBS... in MPC-HC. It's the MVC codec who isn't supported yet in MPC-HC.

With madVR (this one is an honest question)?

Originally Posted by dansrfe

What would 10bit actually provide or look like if not dithered down to 8bit? I know the benefits of encoding to 10bit (less banding, better compression, etc.) but since it gets dithered down to 8bit for the majority of displays which happen to be 8bit, I'm unsure about what I'm missing by not having a 10bit display.

The potential benefits of outputting in higher bit depth are mentioned by madshi in the first page. It may be better even if your display is still 8-bit (but accepts high-bit-depth input, like many modern TVs).

[Keiyakusha]

Originally Posted by Andy o

It may be better even if your display is still 8-bit (but accepts high-bit-depth input, like many modern TVs).

You mean if TV somehow accepts 10bit input and dithers it (or whatever these TVs do, cause they may do a lot) will bring some benefits over proper dithering like the one madvr does? How come, the only reason x264 creates 10bit if configured to do so is to put some noise there that it will otherwise throw away. leaving dealing with that to some quality improving (damaging?) algorithms of modern tvs doesn't sounds too good.

[strumf666]

Hi,

I am using potplayer, lav codecs and reclock audio and madvr video renderer. In madvr I use windowed mode (exclusive is jumping in and out when I go to the menu or if I want to use the bottom bar which is annoying) and from what I have read I should disable desktop composition, to avoid vsync problems, but that actually results in picture tearing (near the bottom of the screen). If I don't disable "aero" there is no tearing but I have a few dropped frames at the beginning of the playback and occasionally if I pause and restart the movie. Advice appreciated.

edit: I tried in MPC-HC as well and it behaves the same.

[Keiyakusha]

Originally Posted by strumf666

If I don't disable "aero" there is no tearing but I have a few dropped frames at the beginning of the playback and occasionally if I pause and restart the movie. Advice appreciated.

Maybe I'm wrong but I always though this is how it is and how it should work. Why would you care about drops if you pause anyway? And no surprise in aero actually helping. dunno why, but this is the case for many users (not only madvr). It have its own vsync

[Andy o]

Originally Posted by Keiyakusha

You mean if TV somehow accepts 10bit input and dithers it (or whatever these TVs do, cause they may do a lot) will bring some benefits over proper dithering like the one madvr does? How come, the only reason x264 creates 10bit if configured to do so is to put some noise there that it will otherwise throw away. leaving dealing with that to some quality improving (damaging?) algorithms of modern tvs doesn't sounds too good.

It's in the first page of this thread, written by madshi. The basic idea is that if the player can output more than 8-bit, then it doesn't need to dither down to 8-bit after processing, so less downconversion is applied in the chain. Go read it for details though.

[Pat357]

Originally Posted by dansrfe

What would 10bit actually provide or look like if not dithered down to 8bit? I know the benefits of encoding to 10bit (less banding, better compression, etc.) but since it gets dithered down to 8bit for the majority of displays which happen to be 8bit, I'm unsure about what I'm missing by not having a 10bit display.

Dithering is not only for 10bit->8bit, but also for color-space transformations like yuv420-> RGB32. If you do a 8 bit yuv420->RGB32 without dithering, you risk serious banding.
With a 10 bit yuv420 (same for 422 and 444) the banding would be much less and probably not noticeable any longer.
If you keep the whole chain from source -> display on 10 bit, you would have a more accurate image I guess, with no banding. This would require the monitor and video card to accept and output 10 bit (of course not 10bit RGB, asthis is nonsense)

[djfred93]

Originally Posted by Andy o

With madVR? With any consumer player/renderer at all, for video?

I don't know, i don't have 10 bits display yet. For a 10 bits display, you have to buy some Eizo or some korean display.

Originally Posted by Andy o

With madVR (this one is an honest question)?

For SBS & T&B video, yes. For MVC video, you probably need to wait a MVC codec.