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17th January 2013, 16:22 | #16981 | Link | ||
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As Madshi says, it's far easier to see problems with video processing than it is to hear problems with audio processing. Quote:
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17th January 2013, 16:39 | #16982 | Link | ||
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However, when you tell a GPU to perform deinterlacing, it should detect whether the video is actually progressive and thus weave needs to be used rather than vector/motion adaptive. Therefore, you can basically leave deinterlacing on all the time ("video mode") and it'd play back everything perfectly (25p content would be frame-doubled to 50p but this should have no impact on image quality). Unfortunately, there are apparently some combinations of GPUs and progressive video content where this doesn't happen as intended. Therefore you need to force "film mode" for these to get proper weave deinterlacing so that quality isn't sacrificed by unnecessary vector/motion adaptive deinterlacing. I don't believe I have any such content (or my GPUs aren't affected) so I can't test this. Quote:
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17th January 2013, 17:45 | #16983 | Link | |
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If they do, it's often listed as an optional "film mode" option that is off by default, because wrongly jumping into or out of film/video mode looks terrible. Even Pioneer, whom everyone seems to praise, did a terrible job with film-type PAL content. |
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17th January 2013, 18:14 | #16984 | Link |
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FWIW, I've turned film mode detection off on my JVC X3 projector, because it often switched to film mode when watching soccer, with terrible results. I guess only Gennum und VXP processors have a reasonably well working 2:2 auto film mode detection.
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17th January 2013, 18:28 | #16985 | Link | |
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madVR's film mode has worked very well for me since you made some improvements to the cadence detection after the first few releases. |
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17th January 2013, 18:39 | #16986 | Link | |
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Yes, leaving "film mode" on makes interlaced content look horrible - far worse than deinterlacing progressive material would look if the deinterlacer is working correctly. Again, I haven't encountered this (on my HTPC or on the few HDTVs I've used), yet you seem to be suggesting it's extremely common. Even madshi said your sample was a rare case.
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17th January 2013, 19:05 | #16987 | Link | ||
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576i neatly becomes 288p50, and while you lose half the resolution with film-type (progressive) content, most people think it looks fine. If you allow for switching between video and film-type deinterlacing, it will invariably make the wrong guess at some point, switch to the wrong mode, and the result is a disaster that stutters, is full of combing artifacts or aliasing, or jumps between a high and low resolution image noticeably. It's far easier to treat all interlaced content (at least 576i, perhaps not 1080i) as 288p and you never have any artefacts, other than a softer, lower resolution image. One with hard aliasing like the example I posted above is less common. Quote:
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17th January 2013, 19:28 | #16988 | Link | |
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17th January 2013, 19:33 | #16989 | Link | |
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I have to say I've never had a problem with either the MPC-HC or, now, MadVR handling PAL movies. Maybe the odd TV show, but going half resolution on all movies (90+% of my viewing) would be mad! |
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17th January 2013, 20:08 | #16990 | Link | ||
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With interlacing you only get full resolution at half framerate, or half resolution at full framerate. Never both. "Complex deinterlacing" would be motion compensated deinterlacing, which attempts to create a 576p50 image from a 576i50 source. This type of deinterlacing always results in artifacts. Quote:
If you have the option, it's usually called something like "film mode" which enables the TV to attempt 2:2 cadence detection. This means that you may have films played back at full resolution, but it is likely to drop out of cadence on occasion, and attempt 2:2 when watching video-type content, which results in ugly artifacts - the reason why if the set has that option at all, it is disabled by default. With madVR you have the luxury of being able to force film mode, which works the vast majority of the time. Last edited by 6233638; 17th January 2013 at 20:13. |
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17th January 2013, 21:22 | #16991 | Link | ||
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BS. There is no way that "most" televisions don't go beyond bob deinterlacing, that is easy to notice and I have rarely seen it. On the rare occasions I have seen it, it was usually in the source material.
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17th January 2013, 22:47 | #16992 | Link | |
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17th January 2013, 22:54 | #16993 | Link |
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I agree with 6233638 that the automatic film vs video detection for PAL content doesn't work that well in many of today's devices. At least that's my own experience.
However, I agree with DragonQ that "proper" video deinterlacing is much better than simple Bob. I don't know of any consumer hardware solution which uses motion compensation for video mode deinterlacing (not sure about what ATI and NVidia do, though, maybe they do some sort of motion compensation, I don't know). The deinterlacer hardware chips in TVs, Receivers, Blu-Ray players etc all use motion-adaptive deinterlacing with some sort of diagonal filtering. The key feature of motion-adaptive deinterlacing is that it detects static vs. moving image areas. For static image areas you can safely weave the fields together without getting artifacts and as a result for static image areas you get full progressive resolution. For moving parts most implementations use a Bob scaling algorithm with diagonal filtering, which produces results which are better than a Bob algorithm based on simple Bilinear scaling. I would guess that if you used something like Jinc on every separate field (like 6233638 seems to suggest), you'd get better image quality for *moving* parts than what the typical CE deinterlacer chip does. However, if you don't weave static image areas then you're going to lose a lot of resolution during "quiet" scenes. Because some studios/encoding houses don't know what they're doing. |
17th January 2013, 22:57 | #16994 | Link |
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It exists because someone fucked up basically. It is and it isn't fixable. You can shift the fields back into the frames they should be in. But often you'll be left with residual interlacing. So really should deinterlace it after field shifting.
IVTC is only for NTSC material, it has no meaning in the PAL world. |
17th January 2013, 23:07 | #16996 | Link | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_26271.html IVTC just means "Inverse Telecine", which is the proper term for finding the correct fields and weaving them back together. Which is what madVR does for PAL content, too, when you enable film mode. |
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17th January 2013, 23:36 | #16997 | Link | ||
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These examples are from the Cheese Slice test:
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18th January 2013, 01:11 | #16998 | Link | |
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And im paying for that already, this gpu drivers are making me crazy, madvr is not smooth at all, i disabled everything i found in CCC video section and still sometimes is good and smooth, others is not smooth... Maybe is powerplay changing the clocks for power saving or other crap saving, how can i disable that waste of technology in CCC?? I think the problem is CCC, i can see the clocks go to 1000HZ and then drop to 300 and up and thats making madvr exclusive mode unstable Anyway, it could also be 3d settings, because madvr exclusive mode is 3D and CCC has some amazing 3d settings that simply cant be disabled, some of them i can choose "let 3d aplllication decide", but there are 2 3d options without the "let 3d apllication decides" and there is no option to disable them I disabled the scaling in CCC and IVT (dunno i dont know what it does, better stay off) only have pulldown detection checked to auto, forcing smooth playback and thats all... still need to disable the powerplay garbage?? anyway, i made a reset to madvr and only changed upscaling methods to lanczo 4 taps (AR enabled). Thats my settings... plus lav filters + mphc and reclock for wasapi only... Ah, i have aero disabled. With aero enabled i only get errors, f&$/&$/ aero Lets see... its a 7770, it must handle madvr without problems...i`m scaling 720p videos to 1360x768 resolution, so its not so big upscaling i think I did change the buffer in exclusive mode settings several times to 10 and 8, maybe it was that, i have amd phenom x4 965 BE OC at 4GHZ TIA |
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18th January 2013, 01:39 | #17000 | Link | |
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Now how much resolution do we lose when watching a NTSC (video mode) DVD deinterlaced to 59.94fps? GPU's use fairly advanced algorithms IIRC. |
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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