madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted)

[ikarad]

Originally Posted by Qaq

http://madVR.bugs.madshi.net

Thanks. I didn't know that madvr had a bugtracker. Is it new?

I add
http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=41

[MokrySedeS]

It's dozen weeks young.

[ikarad]

Originally Posted by MokrySedeS

It's dozen weeks young.

Thanks.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

The sample-and-hold effect just blurs the image, it doesn't result in judder. If your Sammy TV is not smooth at 24Hz, while your CRT/DLP is then I would say that your Sammy probably doesn't support a native 24Hz refresh rate. It might internally apply 3:2 pulldown to 60Hz, I don't know.

yep, my point is that S&H on CRT "naturally" blends frames and so more or less do MDA's on DLP, so 24p transitions aren't nearly as razor sharp as on a LCD. I've run more tests this afternoon and 25fps looks pretty fine in 24Hz but the motion blur of 23.976/24 movies goes haywire whatever the frame rate(24/25/29.97).....I often read that 24p was a no-go on LCD screens/projectors and I can relate

All I know is that the slow response time Hitachi 46" CCFL LCD TV I tried a few months ago appeared smooth in 48Hz(with mVR 0.84/296.10 drivers). I'll roll back to this software combination and see what happens. That OLED pro SONY monitor I mentioned a few weeks ago displays 24Hz@72Hz and 25Hz@75Hz, I'm not sure if that Hitachi TV could have somehow "blurred" frames more efficiently because it was fed 48Hz instead of 24Hz? And I presume that mVR's dithering is done on the actual frames so that shouldn't matter? Ah well

I also remember that I really enjoyed LSF on 48Hz DLP because it would sharpen up the motion-blur

I'm gonna roll drivers and see what happens.....basically I don't get any tearing and 24p doesn't appear to be internally converted by that Sammy TV, it's just that once in a while judder tests "hiccup"(for lack of a better word)...such as the video file attached to this message(remuxed to MKV with an audio file and with Reclock's judder test on top of it in 24Hz).

Originally Posted by madshi

How often? Once every couple of seconds? Or all the time (micro-judder)?

Well once in a while(like every 30/60 secs), my judder tests in mVR tend to move ever so slightly too fast.....hence ruining smoothness. That's usually when they reach the far right side of the screen, and often when Reclock's VSYNC indicator(spying on what mVR does ) isn't on the top of the screen either.

Originally Posted by madshi

you could try switching madVR to 60Hz for your Sammy TV and activate smooth motion FRC. But make sure you use the new FSE path, and I'm not sure if XP can swing it...

Even with the new FSE path, I still cannot stand the ghosting that FRC induces.....for instance enable Reclock's judder test and you'll see the kind of ghost image I'm talking about. But I get your point and I'll stop nagging you with my caveman OS problems

Originally Posted by madshi

If there are also no repeated frames and if your refresh rate matches your movie framerate, then yes, that should usually mean that your GPU output should be smooth - unless there's a bug in the GPU driver/hardware.

I don't mean to repeat myself but could you possibly add a jitter figure between the ideal presentation timecodes and the actual ones? This would look so l33t

Originally Posted by madshi

This has been asked and answered multiple times already.

Yep, I vaguely remember your reply being that it was "planned" and that you would completely change the way the config panel is set....but I don't recall any <1.0 or >1.0 time frame being specified and I believe it to be a feature many people crave at this point

[Niyawa]

Originally Posted by e-t172

Yes, assuming it really is calibrating to sRGB, it is the best setting. sRGB has the same primaries and white point as Rec. 709, which makes it very close to the ideal target for video. The only thing that's (slightly) different is the gamma. sRGB is the standard for computer monitors and in an ideal world all monitors would be calibrated that way from the start.

I see, thanks.

[6233638]

Originally Posted by madshi

The sample-and-hold effect just blurs the image, it doesn't result in judder. If your Sammy TV is not smooth at 24Hz, while your CRT/DLP is then I would say that your Sammy probably doesn't support a native 24Hz refresh rate. It might internally apply 3:2 pulldown to 60Hz, I don't know.

That could very well be the case - a lot of the earlier 24p models, and cheaper models with 24p support accept a 24p input and then convert it to 60Hz internally.

Originally Posted by e-t172

sRGB is the standard for computer monitors and in an ideal world all monitors would be calibrated that way from the start.

Very few monitors are calibrated to sRGB. The sRGB specification also defines a fixed white point and black level that results in a very low contrast image.

Typically the sRGB primaries (which are the same as the BT.709 primaries) are used with a 2.2 power curve gamma.

Originally Posted by DragonQ

In my experience it's quite easy to beat the blacks of a CRT. All the CRTs I ever used had a "blooming" effect, like what you're describing. When the scene is brighter, blacks get lighter and shadow detail is reduced.

CRTs can put out an extremely high contrast image. Set correctly a good CRT will have about 10,000:1 on-off contrast (dynamic range) and if you use an external LUT device to avoid crushing shadow details, you can go significantly higher than that - you can set it up so the tube actually turns off with black.
But CRT has a very low ANSI contrast ratio - about 150:1 with the best models, and 100:1 or less with typical models. This is a result of the "blooming" that you describe.

This is why it has always surprised me that people that like CRTs wouldn't give Full Array LED backlit sets a chance. While they also exhibit blooming, it is much more contained (on sets with 100-300 zones) and the zones can be turned off completely, or to an extremely low level (>80,000:1) without crushing shadow detail or requiring external LUT trickery (depends on the implementation, but Sony's is good) and they have in excess of 10,000:1 ANSI in most cases - some sets, in excess of 15,000:1. So they have both higher on-off contrast (dynamic range) and orders of magnitude higher ANSI contrast. The end result is actually a very CRT-like image on my HX900.

Traditional LCDs have essentially a fixed contrast ratio. The best sets have a contrast of about 3,000-4,000:1, but this is for both on-off and ANSI contrast.
There are other dimming techniques for these LCDs (including "local dimming" with 8-32 zones for edge LED sets) but these are ineffective in my opinion.

Plasmas usually have very little difference between their on-off contrast and their ANSI contrast values. The latest Panasonics are around 20,000:1 on-off when calibrated, and 12,500:1 ANSI. This is very good performance, but because the on-off contrast is 20,000:1 the set never truly looks black in a dark room. (Kuros were around 30,000 on-off & 15,000 ANSI)

I would much rather take the "infinite" dynamic range of a local dimming LCD and high ANSI vs the lower dynamic range and potentially slightly higher ANSI contrast of a Plasma display. (but they have a number of other issues too)

Fortunately OLED is on the way (it should be here in about two or three year, realistically) which should combine both extremely high dynamic range with extremely high ANSI contrast.

But this discussion doesn't really belong in the madVR topic.

[madshi]

Originally Posted by leeperry

yep, my point is that S&H on CRT "naturally" blends frames and so more or less do MDA's on DLP, so 24p transitions aren't nearly as razor sharp as on a LCD.

Oh man, you've got everything pretty much backwards. CRTs do not have S&H, but LCDs have (unless they have a scanning backlight). CRTs should be razor sharp during motion, not LCDs. LCDs are those which blur the most, unless they have a scanning backlight or you activate DFI/BFI or motion interpolation.

Originally Posted by leeperry

I've run more tests this afternoon and 25fps looks pretty fine in 24Hz but the motion blur of 23.976/24 movies goes haywire whatever the frame rate(24/25/29.97).....I often read that 24p was a no-go on LCD screens/projectors and I can relate

I've no idea what you're talking about. 24p works just fine with most LCD projectors.

Originally Posted by leeperry

Well once in a while(like every 30/60 secs), my judder tests in mVR tend to move ever so slightly too fast.....hence ruining smoothness. That's usually when they reach the far right side of the screen, and often when Reclock's VSYNC indicator(spying on what mVR does ) isn't on the top of the screen either.

Well, maybe your Samsung TV requires the GPU output to be exactly 24.000/1.001Hz and runs into problems if its not. I don't know. Just a wild guess. Could be something totally different.

Originally Posted by leeperry

I don't mean to repeat myself but could you possibly add a jitter figure between the ideal presentation timecodes and the actual ones?

Did you miss when I said that I wouldn't accept new feature requests, anymore?

Originally Posted by leeperry

Yep, I vaguely remember [...]

Then why don't you use search. I'm really tired of discussing feature requests, or replying to questions about what is on my to do list and what isn't.

[renethx]

What's up with 1440x1080 HDTV files like this? With Jinc3+AR image upscaling algorithm (and Bicubic75+AR chroma upscaling), the rendering time is

- 1440x1080 --> 1920x1080: ~17.3ms
- 1440x1080 --> 1918x1079 (or any similar resolution such as 1900x1069 [1% zoom out]): ~10.4ms

I haven't seen such a drastic reduction of the rendering time by a slight change of resolution with any other file. A10-5800K+DDR3-2400+1080MHz iGPU.

[e-t172]

Originally Posted by madshi

Oh man, you've got everything pretty much backwards. CRTs do not have S&H, but LCDs have (unless they have a scanning backlight). CRTs should be razor sharp during motion, not LCDs. LCDs are those which blur the most, unless they have a scanning backlight or you activate DFI/BFI or motion interpolation.

By the way, due to the way LCDs work (they don't flicker like CRTs or film projectors do) and the way our eyes work (persistence of vision), shouldn't madVR smooth motion on 24p/60Hz brings LCDs closer to CRTs in terms of smoothness than native refresh rate (24p/24Hz or multiple) and no smooth motion? In other words, because the blended frames generated by madVR look close to the frames our brains "invent" between refreshes when looking at a CRT, I would expect smooth motion on a 60 Hz LCD to give superior results than native refresh rate on the same LCD. Does that makes sense?

You said that when given the choice between smooth motion and native refresh rate, one should choose native refresh rate. I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Originally Posted by madshi

Did you miss when I said that I wouldn't accept new feature requests, anymore?

Maybe a good idea would be for us to put feature requests in the bug tracker, so that they can just sit there for some (possibly long) amount of time until you decide to consider them?

[dukey]

back in the good old days, LCDs had insane motion blur, so much so you had mouse 'trails'

[turbojet]

Originally Posted by madshi

On a quick check I don't see anything helpful in that stackoverflow thread. There are also different kinds of Overlay. In any case, if some OS features work with windowed mode, but not with overlay, then it's most probably not madVR's fault. Maybe it would be possible to make such features work by adding in extra code, but I'm not willing to do that at this point in time.

I think the OS is displaying what it is given, in this case, an icon. I think the real problem is hardware overlay can onl output to one thing, that being madvr currently. If instead it connected to infinite pin tee it could output to madvr and other things. As for multiple hardware overlays, if that is another limitation a workaround could be switch to windowed mode when another madvr process is found. Overlay comes with one huge advantage, it can display all frames even when the gpu is pushed to 90%. In window mode, at 60% not all frames get displayed for me, even if madvr says no drops/delays.

Originally Posted by e-t172

By the way, due to the way LCDs work (they don't flicker like CRTs or film projectors do) and the way our eyes work (persistence of vision), shouldn't madVR smooth motion on 24p/60Hz brings LCDs closer to CRTs in terms of smoothness than native refresh rate (24p/24Hz or multiple) and no smooth motion? In other words, because the blended frames generated by madVR look close to the frames our brains "invent" between refreshes when looking at a CRT, I would expect smooth motion on a 60 Hz LCD to give superior results than native refresh rate on the same LCD. Does that makes sense?

You said that when given the choice between smooth motion and native refresh rate, one should choose native refresh rate. I wouldn't be so sure about that.

All sorts of ghosting on my lcd with frc. Could be my older TN panel but 48/50/60 works great.

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by 6233638

Very few monitors are calibrated to sRGB. The sRGB specification also defines a fixed white point and black level that results in a very low contrast image.

Typically the sRGB primaries (which are the same as the BT.709 primaries) are used with a 2.2 power curve gamma.

madVR is a PC application for Windows-based systems (right now). sRGB is a standard used for monitors, printers, and the Internet. Almost any manufacturer and certainly ones that offer higher-end monitors offer an sRGB mode. Dell, NEC, Eizo, etc. all offer sRGB modes that are either factory calibrated to sRGB already or at least offer an sRGB mode that is close. It is simply not relevant if "very few" broadcast monitors are calibrated to sRGB, since madVR is not running on broadcast monitors. It´s the largest base to target for an application like madVR, because it´s a PC application. That´s all e-t172 is trying to say and he is right.

What would our PC monitors be good for if they didn´t adhere to sRGB as close as possible. Why would I invest money if they didn´t offer me a close resemblance of standards. Certainly not because of their 850:1 contrast, which pales in comparison to dedicated TVs or insanely expensive (broadcast) monitors.

I agree that sRGB is certainly not a typical target for film or video use, but that´s not the point.

PS: I bought an iPad 3 simply because of the reason that Apple factory calibrated the first batch of iPad 3 devices to sRGB and they are almost perfectly matching it (a bit too blue, ~7.000 Kelvin).

Originally Posted by e-t172

You said that when given the choice between smooth motion and native refresh rate, one should choose native refresh rate. I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I was also confused by that a bit. I also asked if there´s any reason to go for a multiple if you also had the choice of native refresh rates that don´t flicker or judder, but unfortunately I didn´t get any answers to that. I guess that madshi meant to say that "in it´s currently implementated form, smooth motion should only be considered if you don´t have a native refresh rate available". I would say that smooth motion works really well, though. There´s scenes that look simply incredible with it. It´s a shame that on very sharp content (like PC encodes) it looks awful, because there´s a mixture of sharp/unsharp frames that are mixed together.

[leeperry]

Originally Posted by madshi

Oh man, you've got everything pretty much backwards. CRTs do not have S&H, but LCDs have (unless they have a scanning backlight). CRTs should be razor sharp during motion, not LCDs. LCDs are those which blur the most, unless they have a scanning backlight or you activate DFI/BFI or motion interpolation.

Well, if I move the mouse cursor very quickly on a 100Hz CRT, I can see a dozen of them simultaneously...this is NOT what I call "razor sharp" and that's the "natural" blending I see on 24p@96Hz.

But you are entirely right that I've got 200Hz BFI enabled on that Sammy TV and that tends to gives a very sharp picture that's as unforgiving as it gets.

Originally Posted by madshi

I've no idea what you're talking about. 24p works just fine with most LCD projectors.

Well, I assumed that this was old news: http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker. You can see some judder in the movie theater, but it is not as pronounced as it is on a digital home theater projector

Analog projectors work at double shutter speed(48Hz), and yes "naked" 24fps is quite unbearable...especially when it comes with that nasty motion blur.

Originally Posted by madshi

Well, maybe your Samsung TV requires the GPU output to be exactly 24.000/1.001Hz and runs into problems if its not. I don't know. Just a wild guess. Could be something totally different.

Oh you nail it! I'll RTFM, maybe they'll specify some "perfect world" timings

Originally Posted by madshi

Did you miss when I said that I wouldn't accept new feature requests, anymore?

Well, you said that the exception makes the rule so ya never know....and jitter is all the rage in the audiophile world so a J figure in mVR would be amazing someday

Originally Posted by madshi

Then why don't you use search. I'm really tired of discussing feature requests, or replying to questions about what is on my to do list and what isn't.

yah when it's done, I get it

Originally Posted by turbojet

All sorts of ghosting on my lcd with frc. Could be my older TN panel but 48/50/60 works great.

I tried FRC on CRT/TN/S-PVA and it always ended up in a ghost images feast.

Originally Posted by Niyawa

I'm using an LG Flatron E2260 that has some horrible colors when using the fabric calibration. The only preset that actually makes it more or less acceptable is sRGB

sRGB=REC.709, set mVR for gamut mapping to REC.709 et voilà ))

[e-t172]

Originally Posted by turbojet

All sorts of ghosting on my lcd with frc. Could be my older TN panel but 48/50/60 works great.

Well, I get the opposite experience on my brand new Dell U3014 (H-IPS panel). I just tested it, and it confirms what I was suspecting in my previous post: smooth motion 24p@60Hz actually looks much smoother than 24p@24Hz. Maybe my monitor does not support "real" 24p but I don't think so judging from the result of some motion pattern tests. I think I'll be watching everything using smooth motion @60Hz from now on, instead of switching to 24Hz.

Regarding ghosting: maybe that's caused by the LCD pixel response time, which would be more visible when the image changes 60 times per second instead of 24. I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by iSunrise

madVR is a PC application for Windows-based systems (right now). sRGB is a standard used for monitors, printers, and the Internet. Almost any manufacturer and certainly ones that offer higher-end monitors offer an sRGB mode. Dell, NEC, Eizo, etc. all offer sRGB modes that are either factory calibrated to sRGB already or at least offer an sRGB mode that is close. It is simply not relevant if "very few" broadcast monitors are calibrated to sRGB, since madVR is not running on broadcast monitors. It´s the largest base to target for an application like madVR, because it´s a PC application. That´s all e-t172 is trying to say and he is right.

I don't think 6233638 and I disagree, actually. 6233638 is just being pedantic by pointing out that strictly following sRGB would not be a good idea since it explicitly specifies black and white luminance resulting in a very poor contrast ratio. I agree with that, it's just that when I use the term "sRGB", I'm talking about the primaries, white point and gamma, not including the absurd luminance values. Nobody seem to care about these anyway (well, except 6233638).

Originally Posted by leeperry

Analog projectors work at double shutter speed(48Hz), and yes "naked" 24fps is quite unbearable...especially when it comes with that nasty motion blur.

"I don't think it means what you think it means." An analog projector at 48 Hz (which is basically the same thing as a 48 Hz CRT in this regard) will display 24p much, much better than a 24Hz (or 48Hz) LCD because the former flickers and relies on human persistence of vision to fill in the gaps, which works very well. On the other hand, LCDs do not flicker, the image stays on the screen between refreshes, which defeats persistence of vision and results in non-smooth motion. I'm starting to believe that this unfortunate property of LCDs can be counterbalanced by madVR's smooth motion feature. (but then the question becomes: why didn't the manufacturers think of it?)

[leeperry]

Well, I was using this movie for test purposes this afternoon. It's got a lot of both fast and slow outdoor panning around Olga Kurylenko and it's judderland on the Sammy TV in 24Hz and dead smooth in 96Hz on my CRT.

I do need to find a way to get blending but not as ghosty as FRC...but then again madshi blames my OS when I have a hard time believing that W7 will make FRC bearable to my eyes. Oh well, I remember needing some time before I could find 48Hz smooth on my DLP so I'll see if my brain will ever get used to 24Hz LCD

[e-t172]

Originally Posted by leeperry

Well, I was using this movie for test purposes this afternoon. It's got a lot of both fast and slow outdoor panning around Olga Kurylenko and it's judderland on the Sammy TV in 24Hz and dead smooth in 96Hz on my CRT.

Yes. That makes sense.

Originally Posted by leeperry

I do need to find a way to get blending but not as ghosty as FRC...

As I said, maybe that has to do with LCD pixel response time. That would explain why it looks good to some people but not to others. Maybe it will always look great on a gaming monitor which is optimized for fast response, and it will look bad on some TVs at the other end of the spectrum. But I'm just speculating here. Maybe what I'm saying is bollocks and it's just that some people are more sensitive to it.

[hdboy]

Originally Posted by madshi

Have you tried Overlay mode? Maybe that helps...


Display the debug OSD (Ctrl+J) and check which queues have which fill state. If you don't know what to look for, just make a screenshot in the moment when frame drops occur, with the OSD on.

Yes I am using overlay. Looks like the backbuffer queue is empty. It alternates between 0-8/8 and 7-8/8. The other queues never go to zero. On videos with no problem, backbuffer q is steady at 7-8/8.

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by e-t172

As I said, maybe that has to do with LCD pixel response time.

It´s probably a mix of response time and panel type. The Eizo I use also has an H-IPS with very good response and my experiences with smooth motion seem to match yours. I would say that I am fairly happy with it´s current implementation. It looks very close to the native refresh that I am able to achieve with the Eizo. For scenes where there´s only one or only a few solid objects against a more or less solid background (which aren´t that common when watching real-world content) it looks incredibly good, so good that I can´t see any differences at all to native playback.

Here´s two samples I´ve found that look perfect with smooth motion:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5xccccrs7109mjn
http://www.mediafire.com/?1zos93buokb981r

Originally Posted by e-t172

I don't think 6233638 and I disagree, actually. 6233638 is just being pedantic by pointing out that strictly following sRGB would not be a good idea since it explicitly specifies black and white luminance resulting in a very poor contrast ratio. I agree with that, it's just that when I use the term "sRGB", I'm talking about the primaries, white point and gamma, not including the absurd luminance values. Nobody seem to care about these anyway (well, except 6233638).

Yes, I guess that´s just nitpicking on a high level. We´re all only making suggestions after all and if madshi feels they both offer something of worth to the user and these changes are also worth his time, he will hopefully take them into consideration.

[Niyawa]

Originally Posted by leeperry

sRGB=REC.709, set mVR for gamut mapping to REC.709 et voilà ))

Could you elaborate on that? I have no idea what you want me to do.

[iSunrise]

Originally Posted by Niyawa

Could you elaborate on that? I have no idea what you want me to do.

BT.709 shares the same primaries as sRGB, which are needed for accurate color reproduction. If you don´t have the option/don´t want to calibrate your monitor and go with the sRGB mode that is implemented, you can enable "this display is already calibrated" under your monitor´s "calibration" tab setting in madVR and set "the display is calibrated to the following primaries / gamut:" to BT.709. That way, the primaries should match more closely, which should give you more accurate color reproduction. Also, choose "pure power curve" and "2.20" under the "the display is calibrated to the following transfer function / gamma:" option.

After that, you can also check with test patterns from e.x. AVS HD within madVR if your black levels are as they should be. If you need an adjustment you currently can either adjust gamma ("enable gamma processing" and set the target gamma" a bit (lower value = brighter, higher value = darker) or use the brightness slider under the "color & gamma" tab. You should stay away from the "saturation", "contrast" and "hue" slider if possible.

That´s as far as you´re able to go without actually doing any calibration yourself. Depending on the quality and native gamma of your panel and the careness of the implementation of the sRGB mode on your monitor, the results can vary though. It should however look a lot better than non-managed.

Note that you won´t see any difference when just playing with the calibration values themselves. They are however important so that madVR "knows" your settings for appropriate conversions to take place.