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29th September 2013, 19:55 | #20161 | Link | |
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OK, I have tested the BT.1886 standard against my regular 2.2 power curve calibration.
I don't like it. Yes, the image has more discernible shadows. But it destroys the depth of the image I am used to, and looks unnatural. It also lowers my already low IPS panel contrast. The default settings in Argyll (Gamma: Relative, Black Offset: 100%) give me the best results. Because it works best with what a monitor can give natively, and not force it to conform to a standard. Quote from the manual: Quote:
I care for deep contrasty popping image, which I don't get when calibrating to the BT.1886 standard. Yes, 1886 gives a more even grey scale and close to CRT black response but at the expense of image depth. I can see ALL the black steps either way (No black crush what so ever). I don't think you can set any setting that resulting in a pure power curve below 10% that crushes the blacks, argyll always has some kind of offset to the blacks. Only its selectable between Input & Output Offset (0% to 100%). I think that if a display has less than 1000:1 contrast ratio, BT.1886 can do more harm than good. A "Power Curve + BLC" gives me a nicer deeper picture. At least with my setup. Any thoughts? Last edited by James Freeman; 29th September 2013 at 19:58. |
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29th September 2013, 22:48 | #20162 | Link | ||||
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The old methods of black level compensation did not do a good job with this, and also had a tendency to reduce midtone contrast. See this post for comparisons between 2.2, BT.1886 and 2.2 with black level compensation for a 2000:1 contrast display: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409045/ho...#post_22253013 You can see that 2.2 with black level compensation does not do well to distinguish gray levels near black. A 1000:1 display would be even worse. |
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30th September 2013, 05:20 | #20163 | Link |
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6233638,
Yes, the blacks are more compressed with "Power law + BLC" but they are still visibly all there. I don't think there are higher contrast displays in IPS type panels (above 1000:1) at least not in my budget. Based on viewing few dark blu ray movies: I think (in my opinion only) the movies are mastered with "Power law + BLC". I can still see all the shadow details even in high contrast scenes (yes, even below 5%). The blacks are compressed to a smaller range and that makes them visibly "smoother" and NOT even. If the movie mastered that way, it's just fine. I think BT.1886 is too aggressive with the black compensation (as stated before). Do you think the movies are mastered on a CRT? Or a BT.1886 calibrated LCD? I think there is a problem with Argyll's calculations. When calibrating with argyll to BT.1886 specs, the lowest black on my monitor (0.23 to 200 cm/m2 = 870:1 ) turns to 0.29 and as a result lowers the contrast ratio. I don't know why but it should use the lowest black no matter what. This partially made me look negatively up on BT.1886. Last edited by James Freeman; 30th September 2013 at 05:39. |
30th September 2013, 15:16 | #20164 | Link |
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Which HD77xx
Hey guys! Currently I use Niyawa description (MPC-HC, madVR, LAV, ReClock, xyVS). Thinking about buying a VGA card next to a G840/i3-2120 (Asus B75 MoBo/8GB RAM). The best picture settings will prove adequate for a HD7730? Later prove to be enough? I do not play games and I'm sorry for my English. Thanks.
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30th September 2013, 15:42 | #20165 | Link | |||
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If you want a higher contrast image, you have to either compromise on shadow detail and go with a less accurate image, or replace it with a higher contrast display. Quote:
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30th September 2013, 16:26 | #20166 | Link | |
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Well, SONY Pictures promised that CRT monitors in their mastering houses would be replaced by OLED through the end of the year, but yes indeed CRT still rules there and here's a real world picture of a french TV show production control room in 2013, it's one of those.
That's the very reason why some/most/many HD movies look greenish and overly saturated in the REC.709 gamut as some mastering facilities would convert from SMPTE-C/EBU to REC-709 via a high precision 3DLUT but IRL some wouldn't. Once everyone goes OLED, hopefully the SMPTE-C orangey red will be history and the hero of Disney's Cars will finally be as deep red in the anime as it is on the poster Using Argyll's mail list is a bit of a pain, but Graeme Gill does read this thread FWIW and he's the only one that can help/fix the issue you're encoutering. Quote:
If you want Jinc AR scaling@1080p for both luma & chroma upscaling, possibly SmoothMotion on top of it and being able to process 1440x1080i@59.94, a GTX650Ti will barely have the muscles......not sure about AMD boards as I believe madshi said that their texture processing was (sometimes) faster, but I guess you would be looking at a HD7850+ in order to remain on the safe side for a (possibly little) while and their new GPU generation is about to be released so resellers will have to get rid of their 7850/7870's in a timely manner |
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30th September 2013, 16:46 | #20167 | Link | ||||||||
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I haven't compared the quality before/after resizing, and I don't think it's necessary. If the source is banding free before the resizing, then it will still be banding free afterwards (except if you use DXVA scaling with a GPU which only supports 8bit). IMHO the right place to do debanding is before scaling. Quote:
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30th September 2013, 17:07 | #20168 | Link | |
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Hi,
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At this point I thought I would put back the whole graph on the UI thread, but while it works, it does requires many tricks to build the graph while having WPF animation (and keep them smooth). It's much easier to have the graph in a dedicated thread. So you can have madVR added to the graph in the UI thread and have the graph in another thread (preferably with a message pump). Then the only thing you have to do is to place some madVR calls on the main UI thread (well I had to do it only for SetWindowPosition, so I guess that anything that will somehow change properties on the madVR window requires to be called on the UI thread) |
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30th September 2013, 17:32 | #20169 | Link | |
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Last edited by NewmanHD; 30th September 2013 at 17:38. |
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30th September 2013, 19:16 | #20170 | Link | ||||
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I want to quote a few short posts from AVSforum: How power law gamma calibration can lead to crushed blacks Thread.
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This is exactly what I've wanted to read. As I like the Power Law + BLC better because I get a more Contrasty image without "Visually-Non-Satisfactory-Blacks". Note that I did not use the term "Black Crush" because they are NOT (visually for me), they just live in a smaller space, yet all of them are perfectly visible. Well... BT.1886 is a relatively new standard that tells "everyone" to conform to it, yet, not without a compromise. Cheers. |
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30th September 2013, 19:41 | #20171 | Link | |
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No-one says you have to calibrate your display to follow the standards. Set it up however you like, if that's what you prefer. It does sound like something is going wrong with ArgyllCMS if it's raising your display's black level. But further discussion on this probably belongs on AVS Forum rather than the madVR topic. The real solution to your problem is to move away from a display with only 870:1 contrast, which is very low. |
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30th September 2013, 20:15 | #20172 | Link |
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Some people don't have the option to calibrate to BT.1886 I would need to use a 3dlut which would rely on my spectrometer which drifts with heat over time, and the process of creating the 3dlut would probably give me inaccurate results anyway.
Hence, i can only calibrate my display using it's controls to 2.22 gamma since my set also lacks a 10-pt gamma adjustment. There is NO standard for gamma adjustments anyway, different authoring houses calibrate with different displays and different values.
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MPC-HC/MPC-BE, Lav Filters, MadVR CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600, Video: AMD Radeon RX Vega 56 -> TCL S405 55", Audio: Audio-Technica M50S |
30th September 2013, 23:11 | #20173 | Link | |
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BT.1886 is the standard for gamma now. There was no standard. |
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1st October 2013, 00:31 | #20174 | Link | ||
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Too bad I sold my Asus 660 at no loss as I was under the impression that it would take forever to see a fix released and was starting looking at HD7850's. Last edited by leeperry; 1st October 2013 at 01:33. |
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1st October 2013, 01:50 | #20175 | Link | |
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BTW I have read posts from calibrator's who are still calibrating displays to 2.22 even with the ability to calibrate to BT.1886 Either because the picture overall comes out too dark or just preference. (referring to both pro and DIY calibrators on the AVS forums.)
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MPC-HC/MPC-BE, Lav Filters, MadVR CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600, Video: AMD Radeon RX Vega 56 -> TCL S405 55", Audio: Audio-Technica M50S Last edited by fairchild; 1st October 2013 at 01:52. |
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1st October 2013, 02:19 | #20176 | Link |
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I started with this post from AVSforum but changed some options for BT.1886 output. This uses Argyllcms to do the calibrations. Rec709.icm can be found in the Argyll directory, the rest of the files are generated.
Open madTPG.exe from the MadVR install folder Enable "use fullscreen" Enable "disable VideoLuts" Enable "disable 3dlut" Code:
dispcal.exe -v -dmadvr -Yp -qu -m -G2.4 -f0 -w 0.3127,0.3290 "dispcal" targen.exe -v -d3 -G -s40 -g128 -f2000 "MadVR" dispread.exe -v -dmadvr -Yp -K dispcal.cal "MadVR" colprof.exe -v -qh -bl -aX "MadVR" collink.exe -v -3m -qh -et -Et -Ib:2.2 -G -a dispcal.cal -iaw Rec709.icm MadVR.icm 3DLUT.icm Code:
collink.exe -v -3m -qh -et -Et -Ib:2.4 -G -a dispcal.cal -iaw Rec709.icm MadVR.icm 3DLUT.icm Any suggestion or improvements very welcome. edit: I am currently happy with the results of the calibration on my 1000:1 contrast ratio, ~180 cd/m2 IPS monitor but nothing is ever perfect. Last edited by Asmodian; 1st October 2013 at 02:43. |
1st October 2013, 11:32 | #20177 | Link |
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Greets, can someone please confirm this madVR Full Screen Exclusive (FSE) behavior for me please? I need to find out if this is being caused by mVR or something on my system....
Win7 64-bit, with FSE On (using new path, Present Several Frames in Advance checked), HDMI or VGA out to an external monitor or projector, if I put the computer into Sleep (Standby) and then come out of Sleep, the first time (and only the first time) I go into FSE mode I seem to lose graphics output to the external monitor (the monitor goes into sleep mode) for about 3-4 seconds before finally going into FSE. If I use the old FSE path (Present Several Frames in Advance unchecked) then I have this problem when coming out of FSE mode instead of going into. Very odd. This happens only with Sleep, if I reboot the computer I don't have this problem. I have tried checking & unchecking numerous mVR settings; I have tried using different media players Zoom Player and PotPlayer with both Nvidia graphics and Intel HD4000; and have tried various settings under Device > Display Mode (on/off). All did nothing, I still have the same problem so this is leading me to believe this is something possibly with mVR itself and not my laptop. Just odd that it happens only the very first time I flick from windowed to fullscreen FSE mode after coming out of Sleep. If FSE mode is unchecked then all is good so I know it's something with FSE. Anybody else experience same? Cheers... Last edited by andybkma; 1st October 2013 at 11:35. |
1st October 2013, 16:02 | #20179 | Link |
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It works fine for me. It's ProRes 10 Bit 4:2:2 - do you have any intermediate filters between LAV and madVR? Do you have "P210" output ticked in LAV Video? ("v210" output seems broken for me, not sure if LAV or madVR fault)
Last edited by sneaker_ger; 1st October 2013 at 16:09. |
1st October 2013, 17:56 | #20180 | Link | |
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But Madshi is aware of the problem: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1490573/gr...#post_23762599 I'm guessing you don't have any display calibration options enabled. |
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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