Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion. Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules. |
20th October 2012, 07:38 | #14901 | Link |
Kid for Today
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
BTW, an option to mirror the picture horizontally with a hotkey would be fantastic if any possible. I used to do it in ffdshow, but 8bit yadayada and noise comes back with a vengeance
It would also be useful to the RPTV/DIY projector ppl Last edited by leeperry; 20th October 2012 at 07:57. |
20th October 2012, 07:38 | #14902 | Link | |||
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 288
|
Quote:
I agree on the "if you don't enable it" part. I would never buy such a set if I wasn't going to use that feature. Quote:
Quote:
In any case, this is off-topic for this thread so I'll leave it at that.
__________________
SETUP: Win 10/MPC-HC/LAV/MadVR HARDWARE: Fractal Design Node 804 | Xeon E3-1260L v5 | Supermicro X11SSZ-TLN4F | Samsung 2x8GB DDR4 ECC | Samsung 850 EVO 1TB | MSI GTX 1650 Super | EVGA G2 750 |
|||
20th October 2012, 09:25 | #14903 | Link | |||||||
Registered Developer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
SD 24fps could be everything, SMPTE-C, EBU/PAL or BT.709. The proper way to encode SD 24fps would be to use SMPTE-C, so that's what I'm using as default - unless the height is 576 pixels, then I'm auto guessing EBU/PAL. Quote:
But let's not go there again, we had a heated discussion about this in the past already, if you remember. I don't feel like going there again. So this will be my last post on why I'm supporting 3dluts. Not sure what you mean, I'm not using his script at all. Quote:
Automatic rules to make madVR choose the correct *source* gamut is a totally separate issue, which has nothing to do whatsoever with which gamut your display has. Source gamut is one thing. Display gamut is a totally separate thing. Of course both must be correct to reproduce correct results. It's on my to do list, but not coming too soon. Last edited by madshi; 20th October 2012 at 09:29. |
|||||||
20th October 2012, 12:24 | #14904 | Link | ||||
Kid for Today
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
Well, any 25fps SD file has 99.99% chances of being PAL, hence EBU...so I still believe that 25fps SD files should be automatically recognized as EBU, and if you have a funky file you can always override it by pushing a hotkey if need be.
In the same way, any 29.97 SD file will be SMPTE-C but I presume you already did that(I didn't check). Quote:
Anyway, OK I wasn't aware that some ppl would accelerate NTSC DVD movies to 24fps. Quote:
I tried to change the gamma value of your script from 1.80 to 2.60 when set as "pure power curve" with my display set as REC.709, but I didn't see much change in the PQ...that might explain, but I will try test patterns. But you're not using the math from his Excel sheet either? I guess you thoroughly proof-tested the gamut mapping results anyway? with those pesky out-of-gamut colors and all Quote:
Quote:
OK, sweet! TBH, I'm quite floored by how noisy PQ gets when I enable mirroring in ffdshow I guess toying around in those 8bit ffdshow/avisynth apps is out of the question for me now, so indeed PS scripts inside mVR applied in 32fp would be full of win! I might even be able to find a script that would do that mirroring thingie for me without raising a stormload of noise gremlins Last edited by leeperry; 20th October 2012 at 12:46. |
||||
20th October 2012, 12:34 | #14905 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 934
|
Agreed, if you do a rip from a DVD there's no guarantee it'll have a height of 576 pixels (especially if it's been cropped). A frame rate of 25 or 50 fps seems a much more sensible indicator of a file having an EBU/PAL colour space.
__________________
TV Setup: LG OLED55B7V; Onkyo TX-NR515; ODroid N2+; CoreElec 9.2.7 |
20th October 2012, 12:46 | #14906 | Link | ||||||||||||||||
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
|
Quote:
I suspect these scripts probably don't do a great job of it. You really need LUT capabilities for proper calibration. Unfortunately the tools don't currently exist to do this with yCMS files. You can convert ArgyllCMS files to yCMS 3DLUTs, but ArgyllCMS does not do a very good job of creating LUTs in my opinion. Quote:
With upsampling, linear light scaling seems much more difficult to get good results. (but sometimes it is useful) Quote:
Am I correct to assume that if you give it say inputs for 20-100% in 10% increments, you will use linear interpolation for the LUT? In my experience building LUTs, this is optimal. However, how you handle going to black is also very important and most LUT devices/creation tools do not do a good job of it. Because I am no longer using a CRT, I have not run into these specific issues with madVR, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist. The problem is that a lot of LUT creation tools try to end up with the LUT reading 0,0,0 at black by changing the curve significantly from the lowest data point you give it. For example, here is a LUT which has three data points set at 10% (38) 100% (235) and 109%? (255) with a hard clip at black (16) to 0,0,0 RGB. A hard clip to black sounds really bad, but in practice is generally what actually looks best on a display that requires a LUT with raised shadow detail like this. (if you don't hard clip to black, you raise the black level on the display) Most LUT tools, when given data for 10% and 100%, will try to converge RGB to 0,0,0 rather than clip it, which results in significant greyscale errors and posterization near black. What should be done, is that linear interpolation should be used to follow the line down from the two smallest measurements down (e.g. 100-10 in this example, linearly down to 1% then clipped at 0%, or 20-10% linearly down to 1% then clipped at 0% if that's what the smallest measurements were) I don't know if this is something you handle yourself in madVR, or if you're simply passing the input data onto yCMS to let it handle LUT creation though, so it may be a discussion better suited in that topic. (though development seems to have been put on hold indefinitely?) Quote:
What I end up doing is manually tweaking the LUT input values so that the values measured from my display when showing test patterns actually measure 2.4 gamma at all points, when that's what I have set in madVR. (my display is calibrated to 2.2 gamma for computer use, and I want madVR using 2.4 for video) This is a very laborious process though, as you are setting input Yxy values for the LUTs. I could do it in 1/10th the time if I could set RGB output values for the LUT at specific points. Quote:
We can also set whether an input source is using Video levels (16-235) or PC levels. (0-255) I have some videos which have not been encoded correctly, and have compressed PC levels into a Video-levels file resulting in a raised black level. The only way I have been able to fix that so far, is to change my decoder to ffdshow for those specific videos, and use its levels feature to fix the black/white points. It seems like it would be a really easy fix for madVR to offer a "compressed levels" option to fix it. (30-218 if I have done the math correctly - or even a custom option that let you hit a shortcut for +/- on the range, adjusting black & white simultaneously) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think I have posted this example before, it's much easier to illustrate with 3-tap vs 8-tap, but still affects 4-tap: Lanczos 3, Lanczos 8 Lanczos 3AR, Lanczos 8AR. As you can see, the right of the red (B) is still distorted by the ringing in Lanczos 8, even though the anti-ringing filter has removed most of the visible haloing. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Personally I like to sit up close, or have a big screen as anything less than about 45-50 degrees viewing angle is not immersive at all to me. At those sizes, it's purely about pixel-level image quality, and ringing like that is very obvious. Quote:
It is rare that haloing appears on my Sony HX900, and when it does, it is still a far better image than a non-local-dimming set puts out. (CRTs suffered far worse effects and no-one seemed to complain then) Quote:
Set Y values at various IRE points to adjust gamma in the 3DLUT. It takes a bit of going back-and-forth when displaying test patterns and updating the LUT, but you should be able to achieve a flat 2.40 gamma (or the correct BT.1886 values for your display) with a bit of patience. (note: raise Y values to lower Y on the display, and vice-versa) And I only just noticed this but "measured IRE" should be chanced to something like "%stim". IRE is a term for analogue voltages, and does not apply to digital video. (it is often used incorrectly, however, as people think the term is interchangeable) |
||||||||||||||||
20th October 2012, 13:20 | #14907 | Link | ||||||
Registered Developer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
No, there's going to be a yCMS update with a bugfix "soon". I could say more, but this is really yesgrey's area, not mine. Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||
20th October 2012, 14:55 | #14908 | Link | |||||
Kid for Today
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
Quote:
I would guess that sloppy PAL DVD encodes are anything between 860 and 500 pixels wide and proper ones are indeed 1024 pixels wide, height will depend on the AR really. But 25fps is PAL in essence, so I still believe that 99.99% of all 25fps SD files are PAL...be it advertisements, demos, home made stuff or whatever else involving undressed ppl. If some chipmunk voices lovers like to encode NTSC DVD's to 25fps, their files are technically out of specs anyway. Quote:
Quote:
I've always been using this kind of test pattern if that makes any difference: Quote:
Quote:
Ah, you nail it! I thought I was imagining things but I definitely see very faint rainbows on the Windows desktop with a black background....this said, I don't see them in movies and I've survived 48Hz 4X DLP for years so I'm not afraid Last edited by leeperry; 20th October 2012 at 16:27. |
|||||
20th October 2012, 15:54 | #14909 | Link | ||||||
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This is why I am hoping that at some point, yCMS will be updated so that you can create a LUT with corrections for 25/50/75% saturation in addition to just 100% saturation. As for your comment regarding meters and calibration, I think you overstate the issue. Generally, display gamut/saturation tends not to drift much. You should only have to calibrate it once and you're usually good for the life of the display. At most I'd be checking it every few months or perhaps once a year with a high-end meter depending on the environment in which the display is being used. (shouldn't matter for home theater) An EyeOne Pro or even the ColorMunki Spectro are more than sufficient for calibrating gamut on consumer-grade displays. (and unless you have a grade-1 monitor you probably don't even need anything more than an EyeOne Pro at all) Daily/weekly calibration is usually unnecessary with higher-end displays, and it's really only brightness and greyscale that drifts, so a colorimeter is suitable for that task. For what it's worth, I use an EyeOne Pro in conjunction with a colorimeter (upgrading that to the latest "SpectraCal C6" now) and my Sony HX900 has barely drifted at all in the two years that I've had it, from probably at least 12 hours of use a day. It's impressive how stable high-end LED backlit displays can be. I've only made ±1-2pt adjustments to greyscale and contrast over the life of the display, and now only bother to update its calibration every couple of months. (which generally just involves changing contrast a notch or two, to bring the different backlight scanning modes to a uniform brightness) If you have a projector though, that's another matter entirely. I would be wanting to calibrate that on at least a monthly basis, if not biweekly, as they tend to drift a lot as the bulb ages. Quote:
In my experience, having too much data is a bad thing when working with LUTs, and you are actually best off to use as few points of adjustment as you can (but with repeated readings to ensure total accuracy of those points) while still being within a reasonable tolerance. That is to say, it's pointless to make a LUT that has adjustments in 1% brightness increases (or even at each individual RGB point) because meter accuracy/repeatability and drift over the length of time it takes to make these measurements, means that this LUT is going to be a complete mess and suffer from noticeable posterization/discoloration throughout the greyscale. You are much better off with adjustments at 10% (or maybe 5% if your display is particularly bad) and using interpolation between those points for smooth results, even if it means the display is technically somewhat less accurate according to your meter. For example, here is what I ended up with, after letting ArgyllCMS create a LUT for my display, rather than simply entering 10pt values into madVR and letting it create a LUT: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...&postcount=230 P.S. 10-bit out from madVR would still be really nice when using LUTs to avoid posterization on the display... Quote:
It seems to vary by person though. I know someone that is perfectly happy with their plasma, but can't watch DLP. |
||||||
20th October 2012, 16:38 | #14911 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 72
|
Quote:
Jinc+anti-ringing filter
__________________
Win7x64 Core i7 920 3.5GHz Noctua NH-D14/ArcticCooling MX-3 6(3x2)GB Transcend 1426MHz RoyalHD (64MB)[Solo6c][JPLAY]/HD7850DC22GD5V2[EIZOT965] Seasonic X-750 VelociRaptor WD4500HLHX/16TB_STORE |
|
20th October 2012, 18:06 | #14912 | Link | |
Registered Developer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
|
Quote:
In that case I'd recommend to tell madVR that your display is not calibrated yet. You can do this by telling madVR to disable the calibration controls. Then after you've calibrated your display by using your display's setup menu, you can tell madVR that your display is already calibrated and how you calibrated it. That will allow you to change gamma curves/values through the madVR controls, without damaging your calibration. As the first step of the calibration you should make sure that GPU and madVR RGB output levels are set correctly, by checking black and white levels with a test pattern. Last edited by madshi; 20th October 2012 at 20:48. |
|
20th October 2012, 18:11 | #14913 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 44
|
Quote:
With all the new versions out in the last few weeks i have not really been keeping up. Im in the same boat as you as i cant stand ringing. I have a dlp and prefer the film look. What would you recommend at this point for chroma, image up and image down on the latest madvr? |
|
20th October 2012, 19:58 | #14914 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 661
|
madshi,
thank you very much for the new and improved version of madVR with Jinc and the user asignable keyboard shortcuts. I have a small complaint though - I'm no more able to control madVR's OSD via Girder (the old v3.3.9 to be precise). I guess you've changes something in the way you hook the keyboard events and it prevents other keyboard "emulators" including Microsoft's own "On-Screen Keyboard" to fake the input. I've tried changing the "use only if media player has keyboard focus" checkbox but sadly this doesn't fix the issue. So is there any chance you can change back to old keyboard hooking method?
__________________
Z370M Pro4 | i3-8100 | 16GB RAM | 256GB SSD + 40TB NAS NVIDIA GTX 1060 6GB (385.28) | LG OLED65B7V Win 10 64bit 1803 + Zoom Player v14 |
20th October 2012, 20:49 | #14915 | Link | |
Registered Developer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
|
Quote:
|
|
20th October 2012, 21:04 | #14916 | Link | |
Registered Developer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,140
|
Quote:
|
|
20th October 2012, 21:06 | #14917 | Link |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 661
|
OK
I guess I've made a mistake The MS one does work - it's only the Girder App that I'm using that is failing to work. I've just tried all 0.84.x versions and the problem is present since 0.84.0. v0.83.7 works fine - so it's the first version that introduced the configuration window for the shortcuts. Are you familiar with Girder, the old version that was very popular a few years ago? If you are not and have the will and time to try it I can send you a copy and a configuration file that you can use to test it.
__________________
Z370M Pro4 | i3-8100 | 16GB RAM | 256GB SSD + 40TB NAS NVIDIA GTX 1060 6GB (385.28) | LG OLED65B7V Win 10 64bit 1803 + Zoom Player v14 |
20th October 2012, 22:35 | #14918 | Link | |||
Kid for Today
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,477
|
Quote:
I can assure you that my posts in this thread today took me more than 5 mins to write up and the only answer there really is is the good ole' "x<1025 + y<577", which IIRC is the usual SD automatic detection spec. 25fps and 50fps mean PAL, hence EBU. The same way anything SD and 23.976, 29.97 or 59.94fps is SMPTE-C. I did check the resolution of my files I also believe that a proper untouched PAL DVD remux should be done in 720x576 MKV with a DAR of either 4/3 or 16/9, because encoding upscaled pixels is a terrible idea to begin with. I've watched a few SD PAL files today and I was forced to manually roll their gamuts because they were all recognized as SMPTE-C(none of them was 1024x576). You seem to currently treat all SD files as SMPTE-C apart from 1024x576=EBU...that'd be great if this could be worked out if any possible. Quote:
Quote:
As you know, Argyll has an accuracy level switch that goes from "low" to "very high"(which is undocumented for a good reason) and "medium" seems to be the right balance between too little measurements and too many of them that could temper with the results(especially with a spectrophotometer). The "medium" 3x1DLUT graphic card's CLUT I personally build with Argyll make HCFR plenty happy: So a detailed bug report might be in good order if your posterized picture is really what a vanilla Argyll LUT gave you. Last edited by leeperry; 21st October 2012 at 04:55. |
|||
21st October 2012, 00:06 | #14919 | Link | |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 661
|
Quote:
I don't want to offend you by any means but why is it so hard for you to answer the simple question madshi is asking? Instead of saying what the resolutions of these files were not just say what they were. Even provide a sample or two. I'm sure this will help him better understand your issue and probably provide a better solution. I'm not saying that I disagree with your logic about 25/50fps being PAL but from my experience madshi asks his questions for a reason so, please, be kind enough to provide him an exact answer. Again, I'm posting this only to help you both clear everything up and avoid the conflict that seems to be building up.
__________________
Z370M Pro4 | i3-8100 | 16GB RAM | 256GB SSD + 40TB NAS NVIDIA GTX 1060 6GB (385.28) | LG OLED65B7V Win 10 64bit 1803 + Zoom Player v14 |
|
Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|