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Old 25th September 2019, 03:58   #1821  |  Link
Nintendo Maniac 64
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Even 8K HEVC is still emerging tech, although certainly being done in trails and such.
A 64core Zen2 Epyc processor can already do realtime 8k HEVC 10bit encoding, and at 79fps to boot:

https://www.techspot.com/news/81905-...l-time-8k.html


So if you only need 30fps or 24fps, or perhaps 50fps or 25fps for 50Hz territories, then you could get away with a considerably lower CPU core count.

Heck even for 60fps you could probably get away with a 48 core Epyc since, if the multi-threaded encoding scaling was 100%, you'd be seeing 59.25fps on a 48core Epyc. However, since multi-threaded encode scaling almost never perfectly scales with core-count, and since CPUs with fewer cores tend to also have higher base clocks, it'd be quite likely that you could even see slightly above the required 60fps from a "mere" 48core Zen2 Epyc processor.
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Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64; 25th September 2019 at 04:01. Reason: forgot the word "realtime" (bit of an important detail)
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Old 25th September 2019, 08:46   #1822  |  Link
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And that is certainly what North American sports broadcasters are focused on for the next big thing: 1080p60 10-bit HEVC HDR.
So i noticed, "3G" seems to be much more a thing there than here in europe. Even if a broadcaster would like to switch to 1080p/3G most productions over here dont offer that contribution anyway. I visited a brand new station/studio in the states not that long ago, everything built on 1080p60, nothing for UHD.

I'm still not sold on HDR for live content tbh, I have played around with both PQ and HLG and both comes with backwards comparability to SDR issues and complexity, and to be frank the live productions I've seen had issues even i HDR. I'm all for "HDR" as a tech, but when it comes to real world live productions it creates a lot of headache, maybe to much for it to ever become mainstream. Something that just going 10bit (which productions in most cases already are) and just increasing the colorspace doesnt (rec2020 specc), and imo is good enough, especially on a high contrast tv-set like an oled.

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Interest in broadcast 8K is mainly in countries like Japan. South Korea, and China where there is a lot more available RF to use and where TV production is material to the national economy.
Yeah there is no suprice that it's the same countries that wanna push the consumer hw...

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Originally Posted by Nintendo Maniac 64 View Post
A 64core Zen2 Epyc processor can already do realtime 8k HEVC 10bit encoding, and at 79fps to boot:

https://www.techspot.com/news/81905-...l-time-8k.html


So if you only need 30fps or 24fps, or perhaps 50fps or 25fps for 50Hz territories, then you could get away with a considerably lower CPU core count.

Heck even for 60fps you could probably get away with a 48 core Epyc since, if the multi-threaded encoding scaling was 100%, you'd be seeing 59.25fps on a 48core Epyc. However, since multi-threaded encode scaling almost never perfectly scales with core-count, and since CPUs with fewer cores tend to also have higher base clocks, it'd be quite likely that you could even see slightly above the required 60fps from a "mere" 48core Zen2 Epyc processor.
Well, although it is impressive, without knowing the actual image quality and bitrate of the produced encode, it doesnt mean that much to me.

Last edited by excellentswordfight; 25th September 2019 at 09:24.
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Old 25th September 2019, 18:09   #1823  |  Link
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without knowing the actual image quality and bitrate of the produced encode, it doesnt mean that much to me.
If broadcasters were that concerned with quality and bitrate, then they wouldn't be pushing to broadcast 8k in the first place.
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Old 26th September 2019, 09:56   #1824  |  Link
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Broadcom BCM7218X STB SoC Comes With AV1 Hardware Decoding
https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/09...coding-wifi-6/
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Old 27th September 2019, 18:36   #1825  |  Link
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AV1 codec encoder/decoder implementation SVT-AV1 releases version 0.7.0, with more SIMD optimizations for performance, improved multithreading support, and more video features.
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Old 27th September 2019, 19:04   #1826  |  Link
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AV1 codec encoder/decoder implementation SVT-AV1 releases version 0.7.0, with more SIMD optimizations for performance, improved multithreading support, and more video features.
I get 11fps with a 1080p BD source. CPU ryzen 2600. Not bad.
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Old 29th September 2019, 12:59   #1827  |  Link
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New Phoronix tests with SVT-AV1 (0.6 and 0.7)

Link here.
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Old 29th September 2019, 17:33   #1828  |  Link
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New Phoronix tests with SVT-AV1 (0.6 and 0.7)

Link here: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...8280-Video-Enc
Don't forget they included dav1d v0.4.0 results as well, and they're not only measuring performance by FPS now but are even including the max and min FPS to boot.

And they're even testing 10bit AV1 decoding in dav1d! This makes me very happy since, from previous testing, I actually found dav1d's 10bit decode performance on typical consumer CPU thread counts (2 to 8 threads) to be slower than the reference AV1 decoder, so I'll be keeping an eye out for any future performance gains for 10bit AV1 decoding.


(for reference, their most recent review had used dav1d v0.3.0 and measured performance by seconds with 8bit only)
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Old 29th September 2019, 21:53   #1829  |  Link
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And they're even testing 10bit AV1 decoding in dav1d! This makes me very happy since, from previous testing, I actually found dav1d's 10bit decode performance on typical consumer CPU thread counts (2 to 8 threads) to be slower than the reference AV1 decoder, so I'll be keeping an eye out for any future performance gains for 10bit AV1 decoding.
There will be a lot to gain, the various SIMD issue/bugs on gitlab show basically nothing accelerated for 10 bit as yet, as they have been concentrating on 8 bit for all ISA currently:

AVX2.
SSSE3.
NEON.

Nevcariel mentioned something about 10 bit content not being available at the moment (broadcast, not test content ala Chimera), so I doubt it's a priority while there are still missing gaps in the 8 bit SIMD code, which there still is on NEON at the very least.

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Old 30th September 2019, 01:22   #1830  |  Link
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Nevcariel mentioned something about 10 bit content not being available at the moment
Well, non yar-har-fiddle-dee-dee content anyway.
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Old 30th September 2019, 18:59   #1831  |  Link
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A 64core Zen2 Epyc processor can already do realtime 8k HEVC 10bit encoding, and at 79fps to boot:

https://www.techspot.com/news/81905-...l-time-8k.html

So if you only need 30fps or 24fps, or perhaps 50fps or 25fps for 50Hz territories, then you could get away with a considerably lower CPU core count.
Making the raw bitstream is becoming feasible, yes. But having it work at industrial scale with broadcast reliability, with good 8K monitoring solutions, end to end distribution and all that? Still at the experimental stage.

An open question would be at what bitrate an 8K signal would look better than a 4K signal. Being able to spend 4x the MIPS per pixel in 4K can be material, and it takes pretty low QPs to preserve detail in an 8K frame that wouldn't be in a 4K downconvert.

Practical 8K could well wait for the VVC codec. I've not seen much AV1 in 8K, but only 20% better than HEVC isn't likely to be sufficient. "8K in 4K bandwidth" is a good story, just like HEVC gave "4K in 1080p bandwidth" versus H.264.
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Old 30th September 2019, 19:03   #1832  |  Link
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I'm still not sold on HDR for live content tbh, I have played around with both PQ and HLG and both comes with backwards comparability to SDR issues and complexity, and to be frank the live productions I've seen had issues even i HDR. I'm all for "HDR" as a tech, but when it comes to real world live productions it creates a lot of headache, maybe to much for it to ever become mainstream. Something that just going 10bit (which productions in most cases already are) and just increasing the colorspace doesnt (rec2020 specc), and imo is good enough, especially on a high contrast tv-set like an oled.
HLG has an impossible goal: provide a single signal that does HDR on HDR TVs and SDR on SDR TVs. HLG winds up being tuned to optimize one or the other, or just be mediocre for both. Good live HDR today is produced and distributed in PQ, and SDR versions are made in parallel or derived from the PQ. It's a big challenge since it's a rare production where ALL feeds can be PQ, so SDR needs to get upconverted for some stuff still.

But when you've got a good HDR PQ source, HDR PQ output can look great; much better than SDR at the same bitrate.
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Old 1st October 2019, 00:05   #1833  |  Link
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"8K in 4K bandwidth" is a good story, just like HEVC gave "4K in 1080p bandwidth" versus H.264.
Isn't that 8K at 2x 4K bandwidth considering the 50% improvement target of VVC?

Likewise HEVC is at best hitting 70-75% reduction vs AVC for 4K, and even then x265 does not seem to be quite living up to that currently given the recent MSU test results, though maybe I read them wrong?

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Old 3rd October 2019, 19:08   #1834  |  Link
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Even more SVT-AV1 v0.7 benchmarks from Phononix, this time all on the i9-7980XE but testing performance between different OSes and distros (including Windows 10):

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...creators&num=4
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Old 4th October 2019, 18:21   #1835  |  Link
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Isn't that 8K at 2x 4K bandwidth considering the 50% improvement target of VVC?

Likewise HEVC is at best hitting 70-75% reduction vs AVC for 4K, and even then x265 does not seem to be quite living up to that currently given the recent MSU test results, though maybe I read them wrong?
In general you need fewer bits per pixel as the number of pixels goes up, as any given artifact is a lot smaller. This is probably extra true for 8K; a completely messed up 4x4 block at 8K takes up as much visual field as 1 bad pixel at 1080p. The classic rule of thumb is that bitrate should go up proportionately to the 3/4ths power of the change in frame size. Thus:

new bitrate=old bitrate * (width/oldwidth * height/oldheight)^0.75.

But with modern codecs that scale better to high resolutions, the factor is going to be lower/ maybe 2/3rds? That works out to about 2x more bits, which gets covered by the 2x efficiency improvement.

Also, newer codecs have less objectionable distortions, so PSNR underestimates subjective improvements due to error-suppression features like in-loop deblocking. AV1 has a ton of those, which is presumably why we are seeing its greatest strengths at lower bitrates.

This is all ballpark. But H.264 gave 720p at roughly 480p MPEG-2 bandwidth and HEVC gave 4K at roughly 1080p H.264 bandwidth.
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Old 5th October 2019, 08:59   #1836  |  Link
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libgav1 new AV1 decoder from Google. Focus on android OS.

https://chromium.googlesource.com/codecs/libgav1/
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Old 5th October 2019, 22:15   #1837  |  Link
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libgav1 new AV1 decoder from Google. Focus on android OS.

https://chromium.googlesource.com/codecs/libgav1/

And Phoronix has already managed to benchmark it against dav1d v0.4.0 on a bunch of different AMD and Intel CPUs:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...V1-performance
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Old 6th October 2019, 01:06   #1838  |  Link
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Yeah seems libgav1 has a long way to go for x86 at least.

ARM NEON is almost fully accelerated for 8 bit video in dav1d, so until Phoronix does some tests with ARM cores I'd assume a similar result there too.

On a different note, I've been keeping an eye on the experimental AOM/AV2 code branch for a while now.

Seems like a fair amount of work has gone in to it already - though judging any current cumulative improvement is difficult without an obvious AWCY link that compares the AOM master to the experimental code.

Can anyone point me to something here?
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Old 6th October 2019, 02:04   #1839  |  Link
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On a different note, I've been keeping an eye on the experimental AOM/AV2 code branch for a while now.

Seems like a fair amount of work has gone in to it already - though judging any current cumulative improvement is difficult without an obvious AWCY link that compares the AOM master to the experimental code.

Can anyone point me to something here?
According to this, the gains are currently at around 0.55%. Not much currently, but i guess they are only starting to add new tools.
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Old 8th October 2019, 16:33   #1840  |  Link
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AV1 is ready for prime time: SVT-AV1 beats x265 and libvpx in quality, bitrate and speed
https://medium.com/@ewoutterhoeven/a...d-31c1960703db
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