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Old 1st July 2019, 15:39   #56721  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by Charky View Post
You're lucky.

Every time I say the same on this very topic, I get death threats from die hard madvr users yelling that madvr can't to anything with only a GTX 1060 and that anyone serious about picture quality should mortgage their house and buy a RTX 2080 TI...
I don't think anyone made death threats, the question is what exactly do you want to do with madVR.

If you only use a few of the features, or are mostly playing 1080p content (or downscale 4K content) on a 1080p display then sure, a 1060 will do fine.

But if you have a 4K display/projector and want to use the latest HDR dynamic tonemapping, 3D LUT calibration, 12bits, some processing, black bars detection, NGU upscaling of 480p, 720p or 1080p content to 4K, then I doubt that a 1060 is enough, especially at 60p, unless you're happy to reduce the quality (and I'm not talking going from NGU Chroma very high to high, I'm talking settings that actually reduce the PQ).

I have a 1080ti and I have to limit the amount of processing I do in many situations (I use NGU chroma anti-alias high and NGU luma sharp very high). And at the moment, I only use 8bits due to a bug with the JVCs and not 12bits (which does save a significant amount of power. If I could use 12bits, I'd be even more limited).

So if you just want it to work and are happy to play with the settings until you don't get dropped frames, use only 8bits on a 1080p screen, are happy to not use a 3D LUT, can live without black bars detection or any other feature that doesn't work with D3D11 native and if you only use HDR passthrough, then sure, get a 1060.

If you want to get the best PQ available at the moment (especially for HDR with dynamic tonemapping) and use all the features listed above, then I'd suggest at least a 1080ti.

And if you want to be able to tap into the tensor cores potential that might be exploited by madVR at some point, then I wouldn't buy a GTX but would only buy an RTX.

Madshi himself recommends to get an RTX rather than a GTX.
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Old 1st July 2019, 15:59   #56722  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charky View Post
You're lucky.

Every time I say the same on this very topic, I get death threats from die hard madvr users yelling that madvr can't to anything with only a GTX 1060 and that anyone serious about picture quality should mortgage their house and buy a RTX 2080 TI...
Lol, I have a laptop with a 1060 in it and I have dynamic tone-mapping enabled, NGU sharp medium chroma, NGU sharp very-high image, and error diffusion 1 dithering all enabled and there are no frame drops. Also all the trade quality for performance options are unchecked. It's most certainly fast enough.

Plays 1080p and 4K UHD 24Hz both just fine. If I want to do 60Hz (which is very rare), then I go with Lancosz instead of NGU for scaling and it works.

Last edited by SirMaster; 1st July 2019 at 16:02.
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Old 1st July 2019, 16:25   #56723  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
Lol, I have a laptop with a 1060 in it and I have dynamic tone-mapping enabled, NGU sharp medium chroma, NGU sharp very-high image, and error diffusion 1 dithering all enabled and there are no frame drops. Also all the trade quality for performance options are unchecked. It's most certainly fast enough.

Plays 1080p and 4K UHD 24Hz both just fine. If I want to do 60Hz (which is very rare), then I go with Lancosz instead of NGU for scaling and it works.
Do you use a 3D LUT for calibration? Do you need black bars detection or UHD Bluray menus, hence can't use D3D11 native? Do you use 12bits? Did you try upscaling a 480p DVD (50p or 60p) to 4K with your settings?

Again, people can be very happy with a 1060 if they only use a fraction of the features or are happy to reduce PQ (NGU Chroma medium or using Lancosz instead of NGU is reduced quality, though I agree not very noticeably), especially (but not only) at 60p.

It's all about which features you need, and how happy you are to compromise PQ. You seem to be very happy to compromise PQ and only use a subset of features, there is nothing wrong with that.
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Old 1st July 2019, 17:02   #56724  |  Link
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Originally Posted by cork_OS View Post
As 1060 3Gb user I would recommend 6Gb version.
Seconded. It's okay with smaller queues but having to compromise on those isn't great. Every major update to Windows 10 has also made things slower for me, although part of that may be CPU-related (I haven't done too much testing since the last time madshi fixed a function that started using a ton of CPU for no reason, so I'm not sure).
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Old 1st July 2019, 19:14   #56725  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Do you use a 3D LUT for calibration? Do you need black bars detection or UHD Bluray menus, hence can't use D3D11 native? Do you use 12bits? Did you try upscaling a 480p DVD (50p or 60p) to 4K with your settings?
these settings cost "little" to nothing even for a way way older GPU.

d3d11 doesn't make a real major difference anyway if it would do that how could an iGPU even do a copyback operation at all?
rendering at 10 bit doesn't cost much more either hard to even measure it's pretty much writing an 10 bit output instead of 8 the math/work should be the same.
blackbar detection can even save performance.
even 480p60 upscaling can be done using NGU just tested 576p50 with ngu high quadruple with 13 ms.


currently tonemapping and 1080p->UHD scaling or quadrupling which has a huge diminishing return are very costly.
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Old 1st July 2019, 19:30   #56726  |  Link
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
these settings cost "little" to nothing even for a way way older GPU.

d3d11 doesn't make a real major difference anyway if it would do that how could an iGPU even do a copyback operation at all?
rendering at 10 bit doesn't cost much more either hard to even measure it's pretty much writing an 10 bit output instead of 8 the math/work should be the same.
blackbar detection can even save performance.
even 480p60 upscaling can be done using NGU just tested 576p50 with ngu high quadruple with 13 ms.


currently tonemapping and 1080p->UHD scaling or quadrupling which has a huge diminishing return are very costly.
Yeah right, why don稚 you get a 1080ti and try to do what I知 doing instead of stating generic nonsense?

Black bar detection or UHD BD menus means no D3D11 native. In my setup, copyback is much slower than native. I知 not cropping black bars, I知 detecting them to do a vertical shift of the picture according to the A/R of the content.
12bits (there is no 10bits option with HDMI on nVidia) is significantly slower than 8bits here. Good for you if it痴 not the case with your setup.
A 3D LUT is also significantly slower, by this I mean a few ms.
Stack all this together and you go from no dropped frames to stutter.
Please post all your settings for the upscaling of 480p60 to 4K60 RGB 4:4:4 8bits with NGU luma very high and NGU chroma high in 13ms on an nVidia GPU (which one?) in D3D copyback on Windows 10 Pro x64 1809 or more recent (see my sig for details), at least that would be useful if true.
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Old 1st July 2019, 20:40   #56727  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
Yeah right, why don't you get a 1080ti and try to do what Iツ知 doing instead of stating generic nonsense?
so if i don't have the same card i can test with a different one? i don't have to because i don't have to use the option you are using the need for the individual user are very different and it's no secret that madVR can kill a 2080 ti with useful settings while on the other hand another user is totally happy what a 1060 can do at UHD.

Quote:
Black bar detection or UHD BD menus means no D3D11 native. In my setup, copyback is much slower than native.
what do you understand as much slower? i even have issues to measure the difference d3d11 is faster and clearly more efficient but at the moment we are paying for an interop just for using it which make it not as good as it should/will be.
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Iツ知 not cropping black bars, Iツ知 detecting them to do a vertical shift of the picture according to the A/R of the content.
then why don't you crop them? is it even possible to move them to let'S say the top but not cropping them? i had a discussion about this with madshi when it was a new feature where he claimed it should general save performance so generally be used because madVR is processing less pixel which is true where i was holding the argument that doesn't save performance if you need more scaling or worse just scaling because you are using blackbar detection.
Quote:
12bits (there is no 10bits option with HDMI on nVidia) is significantly slower than 8bits here. Good for you if itテつ痴 not the case with your setup.
unrelated to madVR it doesn't matter what the GPU is sending the screen madVR is either rendering 8 bit or 10 bit nothing else and yes the performance difference is meaningless to my tested cards.

Quote:
A 3D LUT is also significantly slower, by this I mean a few ms.
it's clearly not free but even a 960 can do a 3D LUT for like 2 ms
Quote:
Stack all this together and you go from no dropped frames to stutter.
my 960 can do a 3d lut, blackbar detection plus moving the image so you have to do something far far more demanding like tone mapping NGU very high scaling error diffusion or what ever countless option i'm missing here.
Quote:
Please post all your settings for the upscaling of 480p60 to 4K60 RGB 4:4:4 8bits with NGU luma very high and NGU chroma high in 13ms on an nVidia GPU (which one?) in D3D copyback on Windows 10 Pro x64 1809 or more recent (see my sig for details), at least that would be useful if true.
i said high not very high which can't be highlighted enough here a OSD from 1060 it's based on default madVR settings no calibration nothing on this system all setting should be visible in the OSD: https://abload.de/img/osd2ejwd.png

it's a 576i50 file which should give higher render times then 480p60 while obviously still easier to do in real-time.
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Old 1st July 2019, 21:45   #56728  |  Link
Manni
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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
so if i don't have the same card i can test with a different one? i don't have to because i don't have to use the option you are using the need for the individual user are very different and it's no secret that madVR can kill a 2080 ti with useful settings while on the other hand another user is totally happy what a 1060 can do at UHD.
Do you ever read what people write before writing nonsense? This is EXACTLY the point I was making. That for some people who don't use all the features and are ready to compromise on PQ, a 1060 is fine. And for others, who use all the features and don't want to compromise on PQ, a 1080ti can be just enough.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
what do you understand as much slower? i even have issues to measure the difference d3d11 is faster and clearly more efficient but at the moment we are paying for an interop just for using it which make it not as good as it should/will be.
Here D3D11 copyback is at least 15-20% slower than D3D11 native. It's even more obvious when measuring files with MadMeasureHDR. It takes 10-15mn in D3D11 native with my 1080ti, at least 20-25mn in copyback, and more than 30mn with my iGPU on the MBP 13" 2018.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
then why don't you crop them? is it even possible to move them to let'S say the top but not cropping them? i had a discussion about this with madshi when it was a new feature where he claimed it should general save performance so generally be used because madVR is processing less pixel which is true where i was holding the argument that doesn't save performance if you need more scaling or worse just scaling because you are using blackbar detection.
Of course it is possible to shift them without cropping them, I do it all the time. I tried cropping and it doesn't make much of a difference. In any case, you need to test with 1.78 pictures otherwise it looks like you're fine and then you play Pacific Rim in HDR and you don't understand why your frames are dropping. That's why I don't bother cropping the frames. Whatever settings I choose have to work with 1.78 content, so even if I could save a few ms with cropping wide ARs it wouldn't help my 1.78 titles.

In any case, I only mention the black bars detection because it's a common software feature that requires copyback. I need copyback for UHD Bluray Menus in jRiver, so black bars isn't really relevant.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
unrelated to madVR it doesn't matter what the GPU is sending the screen madVR is either rendering 8 bit or 10 bit nothing else and yes the performance difference is meaningless to my tested cards.
Good for you. It's not meaningless here. That's why I suggest you test a 1080ti with my OS and then report back, instead of claiming that there is no difference.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
it's clearly not free but even a 960 can do a 3D LUT for like 2 ms
And what difference do you make between "a couple of ms" and "2ms"? That's exactly what I said.

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Originally Posted by huhn View Post
my 960 can do a 3d lut, blackbar detection plus moving the image so you have to do something far far more demanding like tone mapping NGU very high scaling error diffusion or what ever countless option i'm missing here.
What you're missing is the worst case scenario. I don't care what you can do with your 960 without using HDR dynamic tonemapping. I'm only telling you that when you try to play say Pacific Rim in 4K HDR with dynamic tonemapping in 12bits with a 3D LUT in D3D11 copyback using NGU Chroma high or very high, it's much more demanding than when you play Lawrence of Arabia in 8bits without a 3D LUT in passthrough with lower chroma settings.

It's all the extra features that push a perfectly fine 35ms to a stuterring 42ms. You only need a few ms here and a few ms there to end up on the wrong side of 41ms, especially with 1.78 content in HDR.

A lot of people brag about their lower GPU, but they either don't use all the features or they compromise on quality. Or they don't notice frame drops.


Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
i said high not very high which can't be highlighted enough here a OSD from 1060 it's based on default madVR settings no calibration nothing on this system all setting should be visible in the OSD: https://abload.de/img/osd2ejwd.png
Thanks I'll take a look.


Again, my point isn't to say that you can't be happy with a 1060. Clearly a lot of people are happy with a 1060, and I'm very happy they are. But if someone buys a 1060 today, I'd rather be sure that they realise that they are limiting the number of features and the PQ they can get. That's all. I didn't upgrade to a 2080ti because I don't really need to, but I'm glad I have the 1080ti, especially since madshi is doing the dynamic HDR Tonemapping, it's VERY taxing.
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Last edited by Manni; 1st July 2019 at 21:56.
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Old 1st July 2019, 21:51   #56729  |  Link
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I need to sacrifice something on my new computer for madvr 1080p->4k.

gtx 1650 + 16GB RAm + 250GB NVme SSD M2 + fancy case with lots of 3.5/2.5 slots

or

gtx 1660 + 8GB RAM + normal ssd 250GBG + not so fancy case with enough but limited 3.5/2.5 slots.

Please help!!!
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Old 1st July 2019, 21:53   #56730  |  Link
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before i answer in detail. never use d3d11 copyback if you don't have to do that. use d3d9 copyback.
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Old 1st July 2019, 21:57   #56731  |  Link
Manni
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before i answer in detail. never use d3d11 copyback if you don't have to do that. use d3d9 copyback.
You need D3D11 for 10bits in Full screen windowed mode. D3D9 isn't an option for 10bits unless you're happy with FSE (I'm not).
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Old 1st July 2019, 22:06   #56732  |  Link
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Maybe just some simplicity for noobs?
There are two camps:

1080p PJ's with and without fake 4k or Displays that are 4k.

You are one or the other, perhaps both.

1080p needs a way to play 4k titles especially using HDR. Look into all the testing that is being created for this camp and the hoops you need to jump through in order to produce HDR looking results. Expect to use the high quality expensive video cards to process something watchable. A GTX 1070 is the minimum from what I understand and more expensive higher cards will produce even better results. Can't speak for AMD cards.

2160p displays can use low to mediocre cards producing the same if not better results than the algo camp above ^. GTX 960 4GB is a good example. With a good UHD HDR rip, nothing more is needed imo. You are not going to increase any picture quality by using a higher quality video card to use more algo processing because there isn't anything to improve on a native UHD rip on a native 4k display. That's assuming you have a decent display that doesn't need its deficiencies improved which is a whole nuther story. If that's the case, then you belong in the PJ camp.

You can expect better results upscaling 540, 720, and 1080p titles on your 4k display but tbh, the results will more than likely appear (small) and I doubt YMMV. This includes junk rips downloaded from someplace. You can only improve this crap so much before the return is negligible and you don't need 6/8 GB of memory to improve them nor do you need new cards costing as much as a mortgage payment. The prices are and have been outrageous forever not because of the tech and production cost but to appease over exuberant stock market investors and nothing more.
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Old 1st July 2019, 22:12   #56733  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Manni View Post
You need D3D11 for 10bits in Full screen windowed mode. D3D9 isn't an option for 10bits unless you're happy with FSE (I'm not).
totally unrelated they just have the same name because it is the same API.
d3d9 presentation can't do 10 bit presentation what so ever and decoding has nothing todo with that.

edit: i should just use the correct name DXVA2 copyback which uses d3d9.

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Old 1st July 2019, 22:52   #56734  |  Link
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Honestly, I don't think dynamic tone mapping in the way it's being developed deserves even a bit of extra processing. If you want brighter highlights there are other ways to get them, just use the curve the way it was formulated. Probably most people don't know that madVR uses an alternative roll-off based on the DisplayCAL implementation, which has the property of better preserving the detail near the peak at the expense of luminance. This is also the default option in DisplayCAL, but at least there you have the option to use the original BT.2390 roll-off. Now one may think that the latter is less correct because it has the risk of producing overexposed highlights, but in reality this is simply an aesthetic choice. It's a trade off between detail and luminance, some filmmakers prefer the former and others the latter, and neither is more correct than the other. We are sick of seeing blown out windows in SDR and nobody is shocked, probably only because they are not so bright, so I don't understand this obsession to preserve even the smallest detail of the highlights. Using a DisplayCAL 3DLUT you can even adjust that trade off by setting the Mastering display peak luminance, I do this with my shaders and for me this increase in luminance really makes a difference.

I'm not against dynamic tone mapping, but I think it would have made more sense that its development would have been based on the original roll-off. I was more interested at the beginning in dynamic target nits, which I thought could be very useful to raise the reference white level in a way that made sense, but lately I'm thinking it's probably more correct to set a static target nits based on the measurements. Anyway, to say that this is the best PQ that can be achieved, seems to me at least quite exaggerated. The HDR10+ curve is much more sophisticated, and unlike the BT.2390 EETF, has been expressly designed to do dynamic tone mapping. Furthermore, there are currently spatially varying tone mapping algorithms that are able to deal with problems such as noise visibility or contrast distortions, and which should not be very difficult to implement.
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Old 1st July 2019, 23:06   #56735  |  Link
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some people on here have AMD cards, but you'd never guess it
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Old 1st July 2019, 23:46   #56736  |  Link
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some people on here have AMD cards, but you'd never guess it
In that case, between RTX 570, RTX 580 and GTX 1650? pricewise

I know about the NGU thing on amd polaris but...
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Old 1st July 2019, 23:54   #56737  |  Link
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Wait until the 7th... GPU prices may shift a lot with the upcoming Navi releases

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Old 2nd July 2019, 00:18   #56738  |  Link
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Originally Posted by xabregas View Post
gtx 1650 + 16GB RAm + 250GB NVme SSD M2 + fancy case with lots of 3.5/2.5 slots
or
gtx 1660 + 8GB RAM + normal ssd 250GBG + not so fancy case with enough but limited 3.5/2.5 slots.
Is this for a dedicated HTPC, or a general purpose PC that will also be used for madVR?
For dedicated HTPC the second option is better. For a general usage PC I wouldn't get less than 16 GB of RAM.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:04   #56739  |  Link
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Is this for a dedicated HTPC, or a general purpose PC that will also be used for madVR?
For dedicated HTPC the second option is better. For a general usage PC I wouldn't get less than 16 GB of RAM.
Mainly general purpose PC that will also be used for madVR!!

I can replace gtx 1650 with RX 580 4GB or RX 570 8GB. The price is the same.

Is the only problem of amd polaris on NGU algos??
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:29   #56740  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Honestly, I don't think dynamic tone mapping in the way it's being developed deserves even a bit of extra processing. If you want brighter highlights there are other ways to get them, just use the curve the way it was formulated. Probably most people don't know that madVR uses an alternative roll-off based on the DisplayCAL implementation, which has the property of better preserving the detail near the peak at the expense of luminance. This is also the default option in DisplayCAL, but at least there you have the option to use the original BT.2390 roll-off. Now one may think that the latter is less correct because it has the risk of producing overexposed highlights, but in reality this is simply an aesthetic choice.
I think the aesthetic choice comes from designing tone mapping for SDR devices that don't produce overly bright highlights anyways. Getting extra pop from 100 nit highlights on a projector has negligible returns in its own right. User feedback drove some of the decision making. I'd have to see images of the two curve options to see if the difference is notable.

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I'm not against dynamic tone mapping, but I think it would have made more sense that its development would have been based on the original roll-off. I was more interested at the beginning in dynamic target nits, which I thought could be very useful to raise the reference white level in a way that made sense, but lately I'm thinking it's probably more correct to set a static target nits based on the measurements.
The static target nits sacrifices too much brightness or too much contrast, depending on the scene. For SDR output, it can sometimes seem necessary when you are working with a display with a limited range of contrast. It also prevents some of the issues on low brightness displays such as lowering the black floor too much with a static curve when the source has a lot of content near black and a fair bit of content at a high peak white.

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Anyway, to say that this is the best PQ that can be achieved, seems to me at least quite exaggerated. The HDR10+ curve is much more sophisticated, and unlike the BT.2390 EETF, has been expressly designed to do dynamic tone mapping. Furthermore, there are currently spatially varying tone mapping algorithms that are able to deal with problems such as noise visibility or contrast distortions, and which should not be very difficult to implement.
Does HDR10+ have a tone curve? Do you have a link to information on this curve? HDR10 leaves the choice of curve to the display. The spatial tone mapping options have been discussed at AVS Forums, but they were deemed too slow, even for madVR.

Edit: I found the HDR10+ Bezier curve that can be embedded in HDR10+ content on Google. It looks like an interesting curve for rolling off the highlights, but it doesn't seem to dig deep enough to be a good curve for HDR to SDR tone mapping.

HDR10+ does apparently have the ability to read the APL of the image to avoid unwanted tone mapping for low APL scenes and has a method of avoiding tone mapping of small patches of bright pixels.

http://mile-high.video/files/mhv2018..._10_Mandel.pdf

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