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4th November 2015, 17:12 | #34041 | Link | |
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- D3D11 - chroma up:super-xbr (100) - image down: Spline (4) - image doubling: none - image upscaling: Jinc - dithering: ED 2 - No quality trade The results are plain smashing (Even with interlaced samples).Big thanks,Madshi! For me,89.12 is almost perfect (Almost because the codec in use isn't indicated in the OSD anymore and what does "Touch window from inside" mean?).
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4th November 2015, 17:26 | #34042 | Link | ||
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It should be very visible in most cases, but of course additional sharpness gets harder to notice with increasing viewing distance. |
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4th November 2015, 18:02 | #34043 | Link | ||
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4th November 2015, 21:37 | #34044 | Link | |
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These comparison shots show super-xbr is superior: Image Comparison – Clown: Jinc super-xbr100 NNEDI3 256 neurons Image Comparison – Lighthouse: Jinc super-xbr100 NNEDI3 256 neurons Image Comparison – Lighthouse Top: Jinc super-xbr100 NNEDI3 256 neurons
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 4th November 2015 at 21:51. |
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4th November 2015, 22:29 | #34045 | Link |
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With the lighthouse top example, you can see that with a sharpness of 100, the ringing with super-xbr is clearly more distinct than with Jinc AR.
And the top needle (and dark line structures in general) gets very fat, which is another disadvantage. |
4th November 2015, 22:36 | #34047 | Link | |
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I have heard a couple of people say super-xbr rings too much. But I don't think this is true.
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 4th November 2015 at 22:39. |
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4th November 2015, 23:12 | #34048 | Link | |
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More intensive haloing and very fat lines are not to be found in the source. If you watch cartoons with ringing right along black contoure lines, it is very annoying (and lines also get too fat). It gets even uglier if you put SuperRes on top and super-xbr 100 tends also more to aliasing than NNEDI3 64. With bacondither's new Adaptive Sharpen experimental build (not yet included in madVR), you can get more sharpness with NNEDI3 as well, without ugly haloing. The same goes for NNEDI3 + SuperRes. Of course Jinc isn't magic, yes. It's a limited linear scaler. But with super-xbr, you get a very soft image if you don't want ringing or dark lines boosted. Probably less of an issue for many BDs, but there's always a first time when some artifacts become annoying. |
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4th November 2015, 23:51 | #34049 | Link | ||
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It is all subjective. The haloing is not noticeable with real-world content, to me, and the extra detail is very apparent. I'm just standing up for super-xbr as a great algorithm as has been said about Jinc and NNEDI3. Other's mileage will vary. This a quote from madshi: Quote:
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 4th November 2015 at 23:58. |
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5th November 2015, 00:48 | #34050 | Link |
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Well, as I said, super-xbr may look mostly fine with most BD content, so it's absolutely legitimate to like it.
I'm aware that super-xbr reconstructs lines much better than Jinc with increasing scaling factor. However, sharpness values over 75 can introduce a lot of artifacts. This doesn't have to be an issue for a specific picture, but there are definitely cases where it can look far from good. For instance, you can hardly use SuperRes in linear light with super-xbr 100, as lines will get extremely fat. And you may not use gamma light either, since super-xbr 100 already noticeably highers many areas of the picture. In fact, I even find super-xbr 100 alone with your Lighthouse example unconvenient to the eyes. It looks like a very artificial contrast to me. The line boosting of SuperRes LL is almost harmless, compared to super-xbr 100. In the end, it's a matter of taste. However, I think it's a fact that super-xbr can't be combined well with most postprocessing, unlike NNEDI3. |
5th November 2015, 11:52 | #34052 | Link |
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Postprocessing isn't evil by definition. Hardly anyone would suggest to use Jinc or super-xbr without AR filter. In fact, afair it is always enabled for super-xbr in the image doubling settings, since it rings so terribly.
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5th November 2015, 21:39 | #34053 | Link |
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SuperRes softens super-xbr. So the picture is not oversharpened. It is actually improved.
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players |
5th November 2015, 22:18 | #34054 | Link |
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but if its really improved from a rather objective point of view then it would be a default setting, wouldnt it?
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5th November 2015, 22:34 | #34055 | Link |
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As I already said, SuperRes doesn't like ringing.
I wouldn't use SuperRes with super-xbr. Instead I'd use super-xbr with a low sharpness setting + Adaptive Sharpen, then ringing is far less of a problem. NNEDI3 64 quadrupling + SR (strength 3, sharpness 1, ll off): super-xbr 100 + SR: Jinc AR + SR: super-xbr simply looks terrible in this example. I'd even prefer Jinc, as it has less ringing problems. NNEDI3 + SuperRes is best by far. |
5th November 2015, 22:56 | #34056 | Link |
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Your findings back-up the previous test images. super-xbr has more ringing but less aliasing. That seems pretty clear. SuperRes was said to have the most problems with aliasing, which is why it was recommended to be used with NNEDI3 or super-xbr.
The simple nature of animation makes it unappealing as a test for image upscaling. Faces and detailed backgrounds with many surfaces show the differences in detail far better. But that is just my opinion. I still like super-xbr. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. The desire to have a sharp vs soft picture would have a lot to do with this preference.
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players Last edited by Warner306; 5th November 2015 at 23:11. |
5th November 2015, 23:12 | #34057 | Link |
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As far as I've seen, super-XBR doesn't really add much ringing from upscaling, but rather preserves source ringing a lot more than nnedi3 does. Also, in terms of sharpness, SuperXBR 75 is about the same as jinc3, so those two would be a fairer comparison for how badly each rings.
A bigger problem seems to be the way small details with high contrast (pupils in eyes) get fairly messed up when sharpness is set lower than 2 for superres. In the blonde's eyeballs, the pupils get extra white dots in them that shouldn't be there. If it's anything like the images I've been testing, the problem fixes itself at sharpness 2 and 3 (but 3 tends to be pretty aliased). For clean sources, SuperXBR + SuperRes for 720p->1080p (CR downscale) has no ringing problems in my experience. I don't think it's fair to compare it to nnedi3, which is a lot better at cleaning up source ringing artifacts compared to any other madvr scaler. |
5th November 2015, 23:16 | #34058 | Link | |
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HOW TO - Set up madVR for Kodi DSPlayer & External Media Players |
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5th November 2015, 23:25 | #34059 | Link | |
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Test patterns: Grayscale yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version), Multicolor yuv444p16le perceptually spaced gradient v2.1 (8-bit version) |
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5th November 2015, 23:42 | #34060 | Link | |||||
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SuperRes reintroduces aliasing of the source when it has been filtered away by upscaling (NNEDI3 has a very strong AA effect). I haven't seen a single case where SuperRes really introduces aliasing which isn't supposed to exist. There have been ground truth comparisons here which showed aliasing problems with SuperRes, yes. But the aliasing was probably introduced by downscaling the image with linear light first. This is e.g. the case with the lighttower example of leeperry. When you downscale it in gamma light, there is no aliasing visible when upscaling it again and applying SuperRes. We btw. also still have the radius option in madVR, a higher value will lead to less aliasing (but probably also less sharpness). In fact, SuperRes can even repair aliasing introduced by upscaler. But this functionality is not endless, so an upscaling algorithm with fewest aliasing is still preferred (which is again NNEDI3 with enough neurons). Quote:
Of course this alone is not comprehensive enough to judge finally, but I still find it very important. Quote:
But on the other hand it's true that NNEDI3 filters away ringing, yes. SuperRes reintroduces some of it, since it's like correcting an upscaling error. Quote:
I think it just doesn't work well with super-xbr, as even tiny amounts of ringing can get nasty with super-xbr + SR (even with a sharpness option of 1, default is 2 which boosts ringing a lot more). Quote:
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Tags |
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling |
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