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Old 12th May 2016, 23:36   #37921  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
BTW, is there any easy way to play retail encrypted .m2ts files with mVR & Reclock? Can't really waste 40GB per movie remuxing them.



Couldn't have said it better,

1080p with ringing is a total waste when you can get such natural looking deringing in realtime, who needs 4K no more

Turns out it seems to work stunningly well with SuperRes LL@2 + AB@100 so please don't remove AB from SR anytime soon, still playing around but I certainly like what I see in combination with vanilla 100% LL SSIM2D & vanilla sxbr(whose main problem was amplifying existing ringing as I understand it).

Outrageous results really, hats off
Anti-bloating tends to cancel out legitimate sharpening when used with SuperRes; at least, that's been my finding. It only bloats when combined with another sharpener such as crispen edges.
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Old 13th May 2016, 01:27   #37922  |  Link
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Hey madshi the new options on madvr are amazing...
I know we already talk about this but in would like to ask you to rethink about and if its possible implement on madvr
The resolution of my tv is 1366x768 (Windows says that native is 1360x768 but in tv datasheets says 1366x768, i use the two resolutions depending on the movie fps)
That implies aways upscaling or downscaling the movies
I almost watch 720p content and on this movie resolution madvr don't allow me to use upscaling refinements only image refinements because is small scaling factor near the movies native resolution
I like to use some sharpen because its not a big screen and the sharpen plus enhance details give me for depht
But seens that using some of the sharpen algos and upscaling after produces a little distortion on image, more bloated, and ant bloating filter poduces some extra blur and great loss of depht
I really like sharpen edge but seens that to get more depht with ab before scaling i have to use bigger strenghts but ant bloat sometimes produces some strange distortions and much blur when use before scalling
Adaptive sharpen plus ab is great but is unusable in this scenario because using both give me more distortion and dont reduces the oil paint apparence../
In some past version (can t remember the version that this has changed) madvr allowed to use upscalling refinements on such smallers scaling factors even 1919 to 1920 on my other laptop that is full hd and the effect was pretty good much less artificial... And for last this limitation don t let me use super resolution wich produces good natural sharpen results even with this small scalling factor... Same for supersampling that don t allow using upscalling refinements with this resolution, but in the past if i checked aways when upscaling is required the refinements were used... I don t really have much interest in supersampling but really want to use upscaling refinements when scaling 720 to 768 especialy the antibloat
Im on my phone now but this weekend i can make some screenshots examples of
Ant bloat loss of quality if used pre resizing, i made some tests scaling on avysinth... To see the effect after scalling...
Can you allow use upscalling refinements to smal scaling factors?
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Last edited by CarlosCaco; 13th May 2016 at 13:06.
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Old 13th May 2016, 01:46   #37923  |  Link
XMonarchY
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Originally Posted by har3inger View Post
Like madshi said, it's a problem when studios use certain scalers or sharpeners to resize a master down to the DVD or blu ray. He says that it's not from compression, but I find it sometimes helps with light ringing from compression (h264 is like jpeg. Everything gets turned into a lossy Fourier function which inherently introduces ringing)

You could probably try removing dark haloing for anime if your sources are high enough resolution. I feel like the halo detection is per pixel, which means that any dark lines won't get confused as long as they're sufficiently thick in pixel count. I tried it for clean 720p cartoon encodes, and it doesn't do any damage at the very least (or benefit much either, because they're so clean to start with)
Thanks. Madshi posted comparison picture and the one for Dark Halo Removal was VERY blurry. When combined with the De-Ringer, does Dark Halo Removal make the image blurrier too?
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Old 13th May 2016, 06:21   #37924  |  Link
Uoppi
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
Anti-bloating tends to cancel out legitimate sharpening when used with SuperRes; at least, that's been my finding. It only bloats when combined with another sharpener such as crispen edges.
Do you mean the AB tick box of SuperRes specifically - or any AB (downscaling, doubling, enhancements) used simultaneously with SuperRes?
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Old 13th May 2016, 12:45   #37925  |  Link
Werewolfy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
madVR v0.90.18 released

http://madshi.net/madVR.zip

Code:
* added new deringing algorithm
* added dering key shortcut and file name tag ("dering(ing)=on/off/half/full")
* fixed: upscaling refinement wasn't always active when doing supersampling
* fixed: Jinc upscaling was replaced by Lanczos3 when upscaling in only X or Y
* fixed: some graphical corruption when combining NNEDI3 + SSIM2D + Anti-Bloat
* fixed: image was too bright with linear light down- and sigmoidal upscaling
* fixed: sometimes HDR SMPTE 2086 metadata got lost
Here are a few image comparisons that show how my new deringing algorithm compares to AviSynth's "DeHalo_alpha" (default settings) deringing script:

clown:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR

some anime:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR

light house:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR

some movie:
no deringing - - | - - DeHalo_alpha - - | - - madVR
Your dering algorithm is very promising, it derings very well when maintaining details. It's way above DeHalo and other deringing filters I've seen so far. But sometimes it adds some artefacts as you can see here :

http://postimg.org/image/efe86s6f5/full/

Also note that the color of the door is slighlty different and the lines on the bottom of the wall just next to the door are narrower.

Here I found it too agressive on 2 spots :

http://postimg.org/image/durdyqd8h/

Could you improve a little bit the situation? Personnaly, I would prefer to have a lower deringing strength with fewer artefacts and better details preservation.
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Old 13th May 2016, 15:25   #37926  |  Link
iSunrise
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
What percentage of video content includes source ringing? Is this more or less common than banding with 8-bit sources?
Ringing is very common when the source master is of lower resolution than the target resolution (especially old DVD masters, less common on newer DVDs or Blu-Rays, since the studios went back again to do at least a 2K scan of the negatives) and the studios upscaled and sharpened the picture to much.

It's not limited to only film content, but also animes or live action performances.

Last edited by iSunrise; 13th May 2016 at 15:28.
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Old 13th May 2016, 16:05   #37927  |  Link
cremor
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Did anyone else notice that image doubling seems to sometimes activate in v0.90.18 when it shouldn't?
When I play a movie in windowed mode (scale 0,0,1920,1080 -> 138,0,1782,925) madVR performs image doubling and image downscaling (image > suber-xbr < SSim2D100 AR) although only downscaling is needed. But it seems like it only does this if the target resolution is a little bit smaller than the source resultion. Other target resolutions (including 50%, 100% and 200%) work as expected.
My image doubling setting is "only if scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)".

Downgrading to v0.90.17 - without changing any setting - fixes the problem.

Last edited by cremor; 13th May 2016 at 16:07.
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Old 13th May 2016, 16:09   #37928  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cremor View Post
Did anyone else notice that image doubling seems to sometimes activate in v0.90.18 when it shouldn't?
When I play a movie in windowed mode (scale 0,0,1920,1080 -> 138,0,1782,925) madVR performs image doubling and image downscaling (image > suber-xbr < SSim2D100 AR) although only downscaling is needed. But it seems like it only does this if the target resolution is a little bit smaller than the source resultion. Other target resolutions (including 50%, 100% and 200%) work as expected.
My image doubling setting is "only if scaling factor is 1.5x (or bigger)".

Downgrading to v0.90.17 - without changing any setting - fixes the problem.
known issue.
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Old 13th May 2016, 18:00   #37929  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by Uoppi View Post
Do you mean the AB tick box of SuperRes specifically - or any AB (downscaling, doubling, enhancements) used simultaneously with SuperRes?
Yes, I don't think SuperRes needs its own anti-bloating. It doesn't fatten the image as much.
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Old 14th May 2016, 00:59   #37930  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by iSunrise View Post
Ringing is very common when the source master is of lower resolution than the target resolution (especially old DVD masters, less common on newer DVDs or Blu-Rays, since the studios went back again to do at least a 2K scan of the negatives) and the studios upscaled and sharpened the picture to much.

It's not limited to only film content, but also animes or live action performances.
Does anti-ringing do anything for compression artifacts:

"The signal is bandwidth-limited, discarding too much information for high frequencies."
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Old 14th May 2016, 02:29   #37931  |  Link
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Apologies.

Last edited by Farfie; 14th May 2016 at 12:43. Reason: Known issue
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Old 14th May 2016, 03:20   #37932  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Farfie View Post
https://skipe.pro/evvw7e.png
Uh, I think something wrong is going on here... I think it started happening after I updated nvidias drivers today (to 365.19), but I'm not sure as I haven't been watching as much as I wish lately. In fullscreen it acts normal, but when downscaling it's upscaling with nnedi3 first before downscaling?
known issue.
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Old 14th May 2016, 09:31   #37933  |  Link
Uoppi
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As madVR forces Lanczos and Bicubic 150 on top of NNEDI3 when deinterlacing, I decided to try SXBR quadrupling instead to circumvent that.

A couple of questions arose though:

1) When used in combination with SSIM (1D 100) AB + AR downscaling, which one of the below SD -> 1080p configurations should be expected to yield the most optimal results, at least theoretically speaking? I'm not sure I'm seeing much of a difference apart from different rendering times:

a) SXBR anti-bloat 25 doubling + SXBR (50 or more) quadrupling
b) SXBR (100 or less) doubling + SXBR 25 anti-bloat quadrupling
c) SXBR 25 anti-bloat for both doubling and quadrupling

2) Is there much point in using AB also with SSIM downscaling if already using SXBR AB for doubling and/or quadrupling? Again, I don't know if I can spot a difference or if it's placebo (but would at least like to optimize resource use of course).
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Old 14th May 2016, 14:19   #37934  |  Link
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madshi, is there a way to resize the MadVR settings window or collapse all the profiiles upon opening the window?

I've finally managed to set up a number of profiles for different resolutions under both processing and scaling algorithms, but it's a pain having to scoll to find each one.
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Old 14th May 2016, 14:50   #37935  |  Link
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Slightly off topic (and perhaps me being a bit thick) - Anyone use a 1440p monitor here?
...
I have read 1440 is a bad screen size for watching films/tv shows/streaming as it doesn't have a 1:1 scale like 4K would from 1080, only that it benefits games. Have a 980ti so I have the graphical grunt for MadVR but just wondering whether it's worth moving up screen size from a 23" 1080p monitor to a 25"/27" 1440p one. I'm presuming there are no adverse affect with MadVR too (besides being able to use less settings at the higher res)?
Focus on the aspect ratio.. I have a 2048x1152 monitor, which is an odd size, but it is 16:9 so there are no issues with upscaling without black bars. I often do watch it with black bars around the 1080p image though given the small size difference. I'm not sure there is any point running a scaler to take it from 1080 to 1152 as with any device other than the PC, non-PC needs to be done by the monitor's built-in scaler, on a PC it is better done in madvr luma upscaling algorithms of madvr rather than the monitor which is best set at 1:1 image to speed up processing and maintain native pixel scale.

There are some really odd form factors out there these days, I've seen some unusual ultrawide monitors intended to be a replacement for two monitors side by side, etc.

Last edited by Sunspark; 14th May 2016 at 14:53.
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Old 14th May 2016, 15:10   #37936  |  Link
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Originally Posted by BluesFanUK View Post
madshi, is there a way to resize the MadVR settings window or collapse all the profiiles upon opening the window?

I've finally managed to set up a number of profiles for different resolutions under both processing and scaling algorithms, but it's a pain having to scoll to find each one.
You don't need to scroll to find the profile for Every resolution change, instead you can set the profile auto select rules and/or you can define hotkeys for each profile
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Old 14th May 2016, 15:42   #37937  |  Link
Sunspark
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Hi, am I the only one who finds the layout of the options non-intuitive?

To explain, in processing > image enchancements, it is the same as scaling algorithms > upscaling refinement except that the latter has a superres toggle.

I think the superres toggle is both luma and chroma after scaling, whereas the superres in chroma upscaling is before, so it is possible to superres chroma twice.. maybe. Both are just called superres though. Only in the forums is one referred to as superchromares but not actually in madvr itself.

I think processing image enchancements is before scaling, and scaling algorithims upscaling refinement is after.. so it is possible to sharpen edges (random example) twice if you toggle it in both image enchancements and upscaling refinement panels as they can be set independently. The checkbox is not either/or exclusive.

Then in the processing's artifact removal, the reduce ringing artifacts brand new option is there, but the chroma and image upscaling options in the scaling algorithms category also have checkboxes for "activate anti-ringing filter".. so maybe it is possible to anti-ring twice if you check it in both the upscaling and the processing artifact removal.. As a user I wonder with the new deringer, should the anti-ringer be de-selected from chroma/luma upscaling as those are the older settings..

I feel that there are a lot of options that while perhaps they occur at different stages in the rendering pipeline, seem to lend themselves to being activated more often than they should be, whether by design or user error.
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Old 14th May 2016, 15:59   #37938  |  Link
leeperry
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
What percentage of video content includes source ringing? Is this more or less common than banding with 8-bit sources?
Actually I'm starting to wonder whether some/most/all to some extent camera optics don't create ringing to begin with and it'll only get worse with cheap optics because plastic provides very low constringence so mix it with poor MTF sharpness, several slightly decentred daisychained lenses and bam! you got yourself some very nice ringing/fringing/chromatic aberrations

I haven't had much time to play with that new feature just yet but it sort of looks like fixing the R/G/B panels misconverges of a LCD projector as edges look cleaner and less noisy. Anyway so far I'm totally sold and couldn't imagine turning it off ><

Last edited by leeperry; 14th May 2016 at 16:02.
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Old 14th May 2016, 16:25   #37939  |  Link
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You don't need to scroll to find the profile for Every resolution change, instead you can set the profile auto select rules and/or you can define hotkeys for each profile
Think you mis-understood. I have the profiles set up with the auto select rules, that's not an issue. My issue is I have all these profiles set up under scaling algorithms and processing, but when you open MadVR to change a setting every single folder is open, creating a fairly large scrolling bar.
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Old 14th May 2016, 16:46   #37940  |  Link
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Hi, am I the only one who finds the layout of the options non-intuitive?
I think the settings are pretty clear if you know what you are doing. Remember, MadVR isn't even 1.0 yet and very much work in progress. Also, dering isn't the same as anti-ring so they they all can and IMO should be enabled.
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