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Old 2nd June 2019, 21:23   #56441  |  Link
Alexkral
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charky View Post
Bottom line : no, I don't think you can "un-teal & un-orange" a movie that has been color graded this way
Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 21:55   #56442  |  Link
huhn
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
What they want is no small black bars at the top and bottom, losing image data off the sides. They already know how to get a proper image but they would rather lose some ot the image from the sides than have the remaining black bars.

This is why it cannot be done with madVR.
you can remove all blackbars with madVR like he said using blackbar detection by combining "if there are big black bars:" and zoom small black bars away
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:10   #56443  |  Link
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you can remove all blackbars with madVR like he said using blackbar detection by combining "if there are big black bars:" and zoom small black bars away
Oh I understand now, with the visible screen area defined and zooming black bars away you get the sides cropped and no black bars. Works great! They can even set the screen area a bit smaller to account for the slightly too wide horizontal stretch.

I forgot that zoom big black bars away is willing to lose any amount of image area.
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Last edited by Asmodian; 2nd June 2019 at 22:12.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:14   #56444  |  Link
huhn
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and it can fail spectacularly not to say possibly increases render time massively.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:28   #56445  |  Link
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Why does it increase the rendering time?
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Old 2nd June 2019, 22:32   #56446  |  Link
huhn
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if you crop and zoom blackbar you need to upscale and depending on your settings it can melt your GPU.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 23:02   #56447  |  Link
Village Guy
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HDR Anomaly

I have been testing HDR on the latest build passing thru metadata. HDR mode kicks in perfectly, unfortunatley it gets stuck in HDR mode until I reboot the PC. Is this a known anomaly?
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Last edited by Village Guy; 2nd June 2019 at 23:06.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 23:30   #56448  |  Link
bcec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
Could you list some examples of teal/orange movies?
All the movies in Nolan UHD set and upcoming Batman/Returns/Forever/&Robin UHD release. Harry Potter UHD releases. There are more, and Warner Bros is the worst offender.

Note that none of these movies had orange-teal grading originally - even in their BD releases. This is something the studio did *after the fact* for 4K releases to make things pop. But it looks awful, not to mention it is not Director's original intent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charky View Post
...
Bottom line : no, I don't think you can "un-teal & un-orange" a movie that has been color graded this way
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Why not? If what you want is just to remove a color cast then it's just a matter of color balancing. Probably not a good idea as you said, and certainly not a job for madVR anyway.
Why not? MadVR is already doing a color correction when it does HDR->SDR. The reason I though about it is because how madshi is doing a hdr->sdr conversion, and there were many cases originally where color casts/shifts were there. I am not saying it is possible, but let's assume it is for a sec, I think I would want something filename based (a keyword in filename combined with an optional checkbox in madVR).
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Old 2nd June 2019, 23:41   #56449  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Oh I understand now, with the visible screen area defined and zooming black bars away you get the sides cropped and no black bars. Works great! They can even set the screen area a bit smaller to account for the slightly too wide horizontal stretch.

I forgot that zoom big black bars away is willing to lose any amount of image area.
OK, so I got this to work for the most part, but I can't use NGU scaling anymore even on an RTX 2070 or GTX 1080 when using anamorphic lens option.

I am dealing with 4K tone-mapped video on a native 4K display, so processing starts to get really extreme when it has to upscale chroma and luma and do tone-mapping. Normally there is no luma upscaling because its 4K native on 4K. And when it's 1080p video there is no tone-mapping because its SDR.

It works if I set chroma and luma scaling to Lancosz AR for instance. But if I set chroma and luma to NGU sharp medium even it's like 80-100ms render times even on a 2070 or 1080.

There is no way to make this work without using the anamorphic stretch I'm guessing.

The whole zooming away black bars stuff is what makes it only work if I fill the 16:9 panel with the 2.40:1 video via anamorphic stretch factor 4 / 3.

I wish madVR just had a simple image cropping option that didnt require this zooming stuff and just took the picture as is, 1:1 on the screen, and allowed to cover the edges with a specific amount of black like some projectors allow.

Last edited by SirMaster; 3rd June 2019 at 00:38.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 00:02   #56450  |  Link
garson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
@garson,

is there a reason you're watching a 720p file ? is that just for testing ?

Scaling 720p to 1080p results in far worse quality and more gpu use than simply watching a 1080p file.
No reason to be honest. This is from my old collection of GoT episodes in 720p. Just used it for testing of upscaling performance.
I just tried now with EVR instead of MadVR and looks like file is just like that, small stutters in some scenes.

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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:13   #56451  |  Link
Alexkral
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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
Why not? MadVR is already doing a color correction when it does HDR->SDR. The reason I though about it is because how madshi is doing a hdr->sdr conversion, and there were many cases originally where color casts/shifts were there. I am not saying it is possible, but let's assume it is for a sec, I think I would want something filename based (a keyword in filename combined with an optional checkbox in madVR).
Can you post any screenshot to show how madVR's color correction for tone mapping is removing any SDR color cast? Actually what I often see is the opposite. Color correction for tone mapping is something mandatory, and it's not clear at all the best way of doing it. The aim of madVR is to reproduce the content in the most faithful way, I think what you're asking for could only be solved with an auto white balance feature which could potentially cause more harm than good.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:20   #56452  |  Link
Asmodian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
OK, so I got this to work for the most part, but I can't use NGU scaling anymore even on an RTX 2070 or GTX 1080 when using anamorphic lens option.

I am dealing with 4K tone-mapped video on a native 4K display, so processing starts to get really extreme when it has to upscale chroma and luma and do tone-mapping. Normally there is no luma upscaling because its 4K native on 4K.
Do not set NGU image upscaling at a ratio below 1.2, it is pointless on a scaling factor that small. Chroma scaling difficulty will be the same so no change there. Upscaling the 4K to 8K and then downscaling to nearly 4K is not helpful and very slow.

Can you do a blind test with an assistant? See if you notice an improvement from NGU upscaling compared to Jinc.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 01:41   #56453  |  Link
huhn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
I wish madVR just had a simple image cropping option that didnt require this zooming stuff and just took the picture as is, 1:1 on the screen, and allowed to cover the edges with a specific amount of black like some projectors allow.
mpc-hc video frame normal size that will do 1:1 presentation or mpc-hc video frame touch from outside. you don't need blackbar detection to use this it may be better not to use it in this case.

with the screen config "define visibile screen area..." you can add black bars and you are cropping the rest of the image.

which is BTW. the opposite of what you wanted before.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:02   #56454  |  Link
Warner306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirMaster View Post
OK, so I got this to work for the most part, but I can't use NGU scaling anymore even on an RTX 2070 or GTX 1080 when using anamorphic lens option.

I am dealing with 4K tone-mapped video on a native 4K display, so processing starts to get really extreme when it has to upscale chroma and luma and do tone-mapping. Normally there is no luma upscaling because its 4K native on 4K. And when it's 1080p video there is no tone-mapping because its SDR.

It works if I set chroma and luma scaling to Lancosz AR for instance. But if I set chroma and luma to NGU sharp medium even it's like 80-100ms render times even on a 2070 or 1080.

There is no way to make this work without using the anamorphic stretch I'm guessing.

The whole zooming away black bars stuff is what makes it only work if I fill the 16:9 panel with the 2.40:1 video via anamorphic stretch factor 4 / 3.

I wish madVR just had a simple image cropping option that didnt require this zooming stuff and just took the picture as is, 1:1 on the screen, and allowed to cover the edges with a specific amount of black like some projectors allow.
You don't have to use the anamorphic stretch if you don't want to. You can simply define the screen area in screen config and then zoom away the black bars with zoom control. The result should be the same.

If you need to reduce image upscaling, create a separate scaling algorithms profile for 4K content and set it to Lanczos3 + AR. In the end, you should end up with more pixels if upscaling is involved, so it should be worth it.

A 1080p profile could use NGU image doubling. I know there is at least one other person out there using the anamorphic stretch with tone mapping with a lesser GPU. He said he was using a similar combination.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:07   #56455  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by bcec View Post
All the movies in Nolan UHD set and upcoming Batman/Returns/Forever/&Robin UHD release. Harry Potter UHD releases. There are more, and Warner Bros is the worst offender.

Note that none of these movies had orange-teal grading originally - even in their BD releases. This is something the studio did *after the fact* for 4K releases to make things pop. But it looks awful, not to mention it is not Director's original intent.
It has been said the Nolan movie look orange because they were scanned from the original film negative and no attempt was made to change the original color. So the colorist didn't necessarily change the color tone to make it look that way.

The yellow look of The Prestige was debated several times in the HDR -> SDR tone mapping thread. Many insisted that the color correction from tone mapping must be wrong, but I think that look is authentic to the original source material.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:19   #56456  |  Link
huhn
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you can easily test anamorphic lens with any TV and show that you don't need a high end GPU you just need to understand what you are doing. or with other words don't use settings that work without an lens they are very different.

Quote:
You don't have to use the anamorphic stretch if you don't want to. You can simply define the screen area in screen config and then zoom away the black bars with zoom control. The result should be the same.
you still need to fix the AR so this will not work. you have to at least use stretch to window in mpc-hc to get it kind of working for 21/9 sources in the end madVR does the same thing just worse and not adaptive.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:28   #56457  |  Link
Warner306
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Does it really take that much upscaling just to correct a small portion of a 2.37:1 window? The ratio is almost identical to 2.40:1 by a few pixels. The anamorphic stretch on the projector should do the rest.

I don't know what upscaling is involved with the anamorphic setting. You seem to be able to apply it with or without screen masking, which creates different sized images. The one who told me they were using the anamorphic setting with tone mapping was using something like a GTX 1070 with a special profile for 4K content and upscaling to 4096 x 2160p.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:42   #56458  |  Link
huhn
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i give you the none complicated example missing out a lot of parts:

3840/21*9=~1646
that means you are upscaling an 3840x1646 image to 3840x2160. that's a lot of work and with doubling not much fun for the GPU.
but it's get's better projector are usually 4096x2160 so if you mess up the settings it's doomsday depending on your setting you may double 3840 to reach 4096.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 03:15   #56459  |  Link
bcec
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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
Can you post any screenshot to show how madVR's color correction for tone mapping is removing any SDR color cast? Actually what I often see is the opposite. Color correction for tone mapping is something mandatory, and it's not clear at all the best way of doing it.
See examples below. I didn't say madVR removes color cast. Rather I've seen in the earlier versions of its HDR->SDR conversion was producing some colors inaccurately, sometimes causing a cast. This is long fixed, however my thought process was that perhaps (?) that could be a feature to un-teal + un-orange these movies.

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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
The aim of madVR is to reproduce the content in the most faithful way,
This is not true, there are many features in madVR that enhances the image by changing the source material in one way or another. For instance de-ringing, denoise, thin edges, crispen edges, and the list goes on. It doesn't simply display the given data, it manipulates it in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Alexkral View Post
I think what you're asking for could only be solved with an auto white balance feature which could potentially cause more harm than good.
I think it is more complicated. As far as I understand, a blanket white balance wouldn't work because teal/orange conversion is done with something like this:
- apply orange to mids
- apply teal to highlights and shadows
So it would require undoing this, and it would probably be hard, maybe impossible. however madshi does tackle hard things with ease :P

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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
It has been said the Nolan movie look orange because they were scanned from the original film negative and no attempt was made to change the original color. So the colorist didn't necessarily change the color tone to make it look that way.
That simply is BS. See some examples:
dark knight bluray
dark knight uhd

interstellar bluray
interstellar uhd

There are many other 4k rescans from older films, where colors are very accurate (bladerunner, ghostbusters, etc). Warner Bros is clearly applying teal/orange to make things pop. If movie has that look originally (for instance Transformers), then I have no problem. But this change from original material needs to be outlawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
The yellow look of The Prestige was debated several times in the HDR -> SDR tone mapping thread. Many insisted that the color correction from tone mapping must be wrong, but I think that look is authentic to the original source material.
There's nothing wrong with MadVR right now, it is reproducing The Prestige uhd disk as accurately as it can. However, as I said, UHD release has an awful teal+orange color grading applied to it.
prestige bluray
prestige uhd

Last edited by bcec; 3rd June 2019 at 03:19.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 03:21   #56460  |  Link
huhn
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try a synthetic bt 2020 hard clip lut to DCI P3 native on a D65 calibrated screen.
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