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Old 1st March 2019, 03:03   #55061  |  Link
huhn
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i wonder what projectors in cinemas do...
and i wonder why the thread on AVS where madshi is active is projector related.

so i do a guess here "because he cares about projectors too".

and back to the topic i pretty much ask him why an HTPC user should care or if there is something exclusive.
and you can read this answer. so HTPC will be able to do the "same" or don't need that feature or what ever you interpret into it.
i'm not attacking projectors with that what so ever and i don't asked that to piss him off. i just wanted to know if madVR will be able to do the same or what differentiating this product.
i don't attack HDR tone mapping with that too.
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Old 1st March 2019, 03:09   #55062  |  Link
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It was a pertinent statement/question for sure.
Madshi is pretty excited about it obviously.
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Old 1st March 2019, 10:27   #55063  |  Link
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A rough mock up found in the wild of madVR ENVY

https://imgur.com/a/AZy01pS

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Old 1st March 2019, 11:04   #55064  |  Link
Manni
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
I set the 1080Ti card to RGB 0-255 12bits and madvr to the same. I noticed weeks ago that my NX9 wouldnt display when I set it to RGB, however it only worked if I left it on Auto. I thought it was odd as in the past I had my X9900 set to RGB and everything was fine, I believe if all in the chain is set to RGB, the proj should be in RGB, is that correct?
Yes it is. It should also work if you set it manually to YCC422.

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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
I have a feeling now that since Im using 12bit and auto on the NX9 that Im now doing a conversion to 422 which I believe isnt good....
No it's not, especially as it happens behind madVR's back, and isn't reported by the JVC (which still happily reports RGB 12bits in the info panel).

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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
Am I ok with how I have the card/madvr/NX9 setup at the moment or should I be changing everything to 8bit until JVC fix this?
As I said, I recommend to use RGB Full 8bits with the new JVCs at the moment. This has no visible detrimental effect as long as you force 8bits in madVR as well. If you let bit depth set to "auto" or "10bits or more" in madVR, you will get a lot of banding. The nVidia CP should be set to RGB full 8bits, and you can either set the JVC and madVR to 0-255 if you care about having the correct levels in the desktop, or set the levels to 16-235 in the JVC and in madVR if you mostly care about video content. My HTPC is for movie playback only so I prefer to set both to 16-235 to avoid unnecessary conversions, as the content is in video levels and madVR's 3D LUT works in video levels as well. That way it remains in video levels all along. Using auto for levels in the JVC is fine most of the time, but then you're never sure if something isn't as it should. I use auto for colorspace but I set levels to 16-235 manually to see when something is not done as expected.

JVC has been informed of the forced YCC422 issue at 23/24/25/30p in RGB 12bits and hopefully they will correct it in a f/w update (see https://discuss.avscience.com/index....11347#msg11347).
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Last edited by Manni; 1st March 2019 at 11:14.
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Old 1st March 2019, 11:31   #55065  |  Link
jkauff
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Not "Edge", it was "Envy".
Oops. Quite right. Guess I was a bit blown away, too.
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Old 1st March 2019, 12:03   #55066  |  Link
Warner306
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Originally Posted by tp4tissue View Post
The projector will always be there for nostalgia.

But without a custom graded movie designed FOR the very limited ANSI-contrast ratio, It's never going to look RIGHT, because the intent is so far mismatched.

Going forward with big tvs being so affordable, I don't think projection has much to give on standard HDR media, Unless they include a projector grading on the disc..

That is probably much more relevant a Pursuit/ ask from the Disc manufacturer by projector enthusiasts, than Madvr's dynamic tonemapping with regards to Projection.

You would demand this through the projector companies, who would then leverage industry to produce the grading.
I can agree all HDR content should have a grade for projectors, but the projector market might never be large enough for that to happen. Tone mapping can be an adequate replacement until that happens.

Dolby Cinemas uses a special 107 nit grade for HDR movies, so this isn't unheard of.

There could be some that want to use this tone mapping with an HDR TV. I think the bigger issue is knowing whether or not you need or can get better tone mapping with better technology. And maybe this box is meant to do other things, as well. Tone mapped HDR has become too complicated to understand.
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Old 1st March 2019, 15:11   #55067  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Originally Posted by Warner306 View Post
I can agree all HDR content should have a grade for projectors, but the projector market might never be large enough for that to happen. Tone mapping can be an adequate replacement until that happens.

Dolby Cinemas uses a special 107 nit grade for HDR movies, so this isn't unheard of.

There could be some that want to use this tone mapping with an HDR TV. I think the bigger issue is knowing whether or not you need or can get better tone mapping with better technology. And maybe this box is meant to do other things, as well. Tone mapped HDR has become too complicated to understand.
Well the good news is , it's already been graded for Projectors at theaters which don't have much higher ANSICR than serious home setups (probably less in many cases),

The consumer such as yourself just needs to get active and Beat the projector company over the head to form a consortium to beat the movie company over the head to include the projector grading..

Everything you guys want already Exists, and can be included without much effort, what need-be is DEMAND..

Pitchforks time. Clipboard + Petition
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Old 1st March 2019, 15:24   #55068  |  Link
422415
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I hope someone can tell me what is happening or what I am doing wrong. I play 4K 10bit HDR content through Potplayer/madVR but my Epson is reporting 8bit color and BT2020 colorspace. I have my nVidia CP set to RGB Full 12bit which is confirmed in the madVR OSD and the OSD is reporting 10 bit content being sent.
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Old 1st March 2019, 15:44   #55069  |  Link
ashlar42
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One question concerning RAM usage, as I'm contemplating the upgrade to either a GTX 1070 or a RTX 2060. Is the extra RAM important or are 6GB enough for 4K upscaling (from SD and HD sources)?
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Old 1st March 2019, 16:39   #55070  |  Link
huhn
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4 GB Vram is enough for UHD output. BTW. we are only able to see how much Vram is reserved not how much is used.

don't buy an nearly 3 year old architecture if it isn't massively cheaper.

@422415
can you make a screen of the OSD?
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Old 1st March 2019, 17:06   #55071  |  Link
madshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madjock View Post
A rough mock up found in the wild of madVR ENVY

https://imgur.com/a/AZy01pS

No HTPC required !
Haha!
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Old 1st March 2019, 17:10   #55072  |  Link
422415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
4 GB Vram is enough for UHD output. BTW. we are only able to see how much Vram is reserved not how much is used.

don't buy an nearly 3 year old architecture if it isn't massively cheaper.

@422415
can you make a screen of the OSD?
I will take a picture later today when I'm home.
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Old 1st March 2019, 17:44   #55073  |  Link
brazen1
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I can see it now...

Premarket headline Reuters - madVR 'Envy' initiates IPO (Initial Public Offering) today on Nasdaq led by founder and CEO - madshi. Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk were not available for comment.

Salesman - "Would you like an extended warranty for your new display? How bout' an Envy? They're on aisle 8 next to the remote controls if we still have any left in stock".
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Old 1st March 2019, 18:40   #55074  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlar42 View Post
One question concerning RAM usage, as I'm contemplating the upgrade to either a GTX 1070 or a RTX 2060. Is the extra RAM important or are 6GB enough for 4K upscaling (from SD and HD sources)?
Used 1060 is still the go to for madvr,

ALTHOUGH, you gotta watch out for the crappy models which fill the lower ebay prices.

1070 and 2060 would give you NGU (very high), buh imho, the price difference isn't worth it. because 1060 can already do ngu luma very high for HD to UHD upscaling.

the 1070 would allow for NGU Chroma (H/VH) ontop of NGU Luma, but imho, paying higher price for chroma is meh, because the visual difference is very minute.



vRam is a non issue, 4gb is enough.
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Old 1st March 2019, 18:46   #55075  |  Link
tp4tissue
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I can see it now...

Premarket headline Reuters - madVR 'Envy' initiates IPO (Initial Public Offering) today on Nasdaq led by founder and CEO - madshi. Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk were not available for comment.

Salesman - "Would you like an extended warranty for your new display? How bout' an Envy? They're on aisle 8 next to the remote controls if we still have any left in stock".
I'd imagine the company will mainly stay private UNTIL it has a very large product portfolio which necessitate branch out.
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Old 1st March 2019, 20:57   #55076  |  Link
422415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
4 GB Vram is enough for UHD output. BTW. we are only able to see how much Vram is reserved not how much is used.

don't buy an nearly 3 year old architecture if it isn't massively cheaper.

@422415
can you make a screen of the OSD?
I have attached the madVR OSD and my projector info when playing hdr files
Attached Images
  
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Old 1st March 2019, 22:14   #55077  |  Link
70MM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni View Post

As I said, I recommend to use RGB Full 8bits with the new JVCs at the moment. This has no visible detrimental effect as long as you force 8bits in madVR as well. If you let bit depth set to "auto" or "10bits or more" in madVR, you will get a lot of banding. The nVidia CP should be set to RGB full 8bits, and you can either set the JVC and madVR to 0-255 if you care about having the correct levels in the desktop, or set the levels to 16-235 in the JVC and in madVR if you mostly care about video content. My HTPC is for movie playback only so I prefer to set both to 16-235 to avoid unnecessary conversions, as the content is in video levels and madVR's 3D LUT works in video levels as well. That way it remains in video levels all along. Using auto for levels in the JVC is fine most of the time, but then you're never sure if something isn't as it should. I use auto for colorspace but I set levels to 16-235 manually to see when something is not done as expected.

JVC has been informed of the forced YCC422 issue at 23/24/25/30p in RGB 12bits and hopefully they will correct it in a f/w update (see https://discuss.avscience.com/index....11347#msg11347).
Manni I want to thank you so much for informing us that this is the case. As I said I knew something was very odd weeks ago when I couldn’t use RGB on my NX9, but I just didn’t know why… I have changed everything in the chain to 8bits and 16/235 (since I only use that PC for video), the image is much cleaner, banding improved so Im happy to have this finally sorted!

Since you were the one to sort this, don’t you think it would be good to inform others on the AVSF NX thread in case they too are using madvr, I think it would be good?

Also when we get a fix from JVC and can return back to 12bit, can you explain what maybe better when playing BDs and UHD films on our madvr setups using 12bit over the 8bit we are doing in the meantime?

Again many thanks for the great detective work.
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Old 1st March 2019, 23:02   #55078  |  Link
Manni
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I have changed everything in the chain to 8bits and 16/235 (since I only use that PC for video), the image is much cleaner, banding improved so Im happy to have this finally sorted!
Glad you got it sorted.

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Since you were the one to sort this, donÂ’t you think it would be good to inform others on the AVSF NX thread in case they too are using madvr, I think it would be good?
I think most of those using madVR should follow here (if they don't it's their loss ), so I wouldn't post something that specific there, it's a bit off topic and technical. I'll mention it in the recommended settings in the JVC calibration thread for the 2019 models though, as there is a short section for madVR users already. I'll announce a sub-thread on calibrating the JVCs for madVR after a new build is out, as I'll also suggest recommended settings for SDR and HDR playback on the JVCs.

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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
Also when we get a fix from JVC and can return back to 12bit, can you explain what maybe better when playing BDs and UHD films on our madvr setups using 12bit over the 8bit we are doing in the meantime?
I wouldn't expect much improvement regarding banding as madVR's dithering is truly excellent (provided the bit depth is set properly in madVR and of course dithering is enabled and set to ordered or error diffusion). There might be a minimal improvement in noise near black, but nothing I could see without pixel peeping, at least not in the few clips I checked. 10bits is important in the content, but for reproduction 8bits seems to be absolutely fine.

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Originally Posted by 70MM View Post
Again many thanks for the great detective work.
You're welcome
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Last edited by Manni; 2nd March 2019 at 00:54.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 00:46   #55079  |  Link
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As a 1060 6gb owner, I can tell you that if you have any intention of using madvr's tone mapping at all, there WILL be compromises. I honestly wish I had a much faster card but at the time the stupid crypto mining idiots were buying up all our cards. LOL I don't know what current prices look like but if you're looking at tone mapping I'd bump that up to a 1070 to get some breathing room. The 1060 CAN do it...it just requires some...convincing here and there.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:03   #55080  |  Link
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Are you talking about the fancy live dynamic tonemapping that's in the latest test builds? My 1050 Ti can tone map using the pre-measure method but only for 24p content. I was assuming that a 1060 would do live dynamic tonemapping easily, this is disappointing.
I hope that in the 7/8nm next generation there will be a card with 1060/1660 processing power for 75W TDP.
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