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Old 13th December 2003, 17:48   #241  |  Link
manolito
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VBR sizing pass always improves quality?

Posted by bobwillis
Quote:
I have found that for OPV high Q (>40) encodes, it is definitely benificial from a quality point of view to perform the additional VBR sizing pass. The quality difference between the two was easily discernable; so in future I will always be enabling the resizing pass.
Quote:
My experiments suggest that you should always perform the additional VBR sizing pass in order to acheive maximum quality from this OPV method.
Posted by tylo
Quote:
I could add another constraint for doing sizing pass: Q above a certain number.
For a Q value over 40 even r6d2 now recommends using a traditional multipass VBR encode instead of a OPV with an optional VBR sizing pass. Frankly, I have a little problem here to understand how this could be true.

Up to now I thought there was a general agreement that the OPV method was inherently better than multipass VBR, because this method guarantees that the quality of your encode will never go beyond the Q you specified.

Of course, if the OPV pass comes out undersized, the VBR sizing pass will improve quality, but if the OPV encode is oversized, the sizing pass should decrease quality. In the (very unlikely) event that the OPV pass comes out at exactly 100%, how could the sizing pass (that uses the VAF from the OPV pass) possibly improve quality?

Or could it have something to do with CCE? There is a thread in the CCE section (remember Yuri?) where some people found that CCE 2.67 sometimes screws up a few frames, but that the problem goes away if you do more than one pass.


Confused
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Old 13th December 2003, 18:58   #242  |  Link
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@w00kie I just noticed something and what if anything it means or why I don't know.
Encoded using TMPGEnc Plus

Same movie that I know has the too high bitrate problem, now on the final encoder mpv BV says
Resolution: 720*480
Aspect ratio: 4:3 Generic
Framerate: 29.97
Nom. bitrate: 9000000 Bit/Sec
VBV buffer size: 112
Constrained param. flag: No
Chroma format: 4:2:0
DCT precision: 10
Pic. structure: Frame
Field topfirst: Yes
DCT type: Frame
Quantscale: Nonlinear
Scan type: ZigZag
Frame type: Progressive

encoded with CCE they always say 9800000 there. I have not idea why D2S set to 9000, CCE template set to 9000 whats with the 9800?
Well on this movie that I know will for sure go to high on bitrate I'm going to try RoBa OPV tonite and lower the 9000 to 8200 and see if 1) Nom Bitrate comes out to be 9000000 and 2) if SS finishes.
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Old 13th December 2003, 19:07   #243  |  Link
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Quote:
My experiments suggest that you should always perform the additional VBR sizing pass in order to acheive maximum quality from this OPV method.
If you always do the sizing pass, then this method really is no longer a one pass solution; it is in fact 2 pass.

I also wonder what is going on in the "sizing" CCE pass. If it only adjusts the size a few percentage points to fit the target media, then I am not all that convinced one would visually see much difference. If you folks do see a measurable difference than it makes me think the "sizing" pass is doing more, probably what a multipass VBR method does.
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Old 13th December 2003, 19:38   #244  |  Link
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Confusion

OK, let's try it to put it in one single post so everybody can grasp the logic behind it (and even destroy the logic with better logic.)

Quote:
Originally posted by manolito
For a Q value over 40 even r6d2 now recommends using a traditional multipass VBR encode instead of a OPV with an optional VBR sizing pass. Frankly, I have a little problem here to understand how this could be true.
It's always about bitrate. The higher the BR, the higher the output quality caeteris paribus (i.e., with same number of passes).

OPV is better than VBR when Q<40. The CCE manual explains why: 1~40, Priority is given to image quality over compression rate.

When you are encoding in low BR conditions, like 1 CD for instance, you are likely to get a Q>40. In this case, doing more passes may improve the quantization distribution, but you will have a high quantization average anyway. The best you can get is a very uniform quantization as result. Probably some difficult parts will look slightly better because CCE will have time to redistribute more the scarcely available bitrate here and there. But just distribute bitrate, not create more. And it's always about bitrate.

Quote:
Up to now I thought there was a general agreement that the OPV method was inherently better than multipass VBR, because this method guarantees that the quality of your encode will never go beyond the Q you specified.
OPV is better than VBR, but that is not the reason. With VBR and enough space known in advance, Q will also be within the limits you need.

The actual reason is that OPV will do faster what VBR takes several passes to achieve. But the ultimate goal of both is the same: a leveled quantization given the space constraints. They are just different approaches to the same goal, but the generated stream has the same structure, etc. Don't look at them as so different animals after all.

Ask yourself this question: If I had infinite disk space, or better: If I could buy CDs of any size and just pay for the minute (1 minute=10-MB). Which encoding method would I use?

The answer would likely be: the one that in the least time possible will give me the quality I prefer.

That is OPV.

Now, CDs come in 80 minutes only (let’s forget other custom sizes for the sake of argument). So, you got this tool from Tylo that, in auto mode, estimates how many CDs are needed. Suppose the answer is 1.5 CDs for a certain movie. Why waste 0.5 CD? So, Tylo improves the quality beyond your request to use that available space. But Tylo could be cheating, and you’d never know if that extra half CD was filled or not.
Quote:
Of course, if the OPV pass comes out undersized, the VBR sizing pass will improve quality, but if the OPV encode is oversized, the sizing pass should decrease quality.
Yes, but in either case quality will be higher than the one you were willing to accept, and probably to distinguish too, so don’t worry and be happy.
Quote:
In the (very unlikely) event that the OPV pass comes out at exactly 100%, how could the sizing pass (that uses the VAF from the OPV pass) possibly improve quality?
IMHO it won’t, it is always about bitrate.
But I have no reason to doubt on other people’s findings. So let’s assume quality may be better after 9 passes (perhaps not), but when quantization is high, not matter how uniform it is, quality is not the best you can get so it doesn't matter how many passes you do. It will never be better than an encode with Q<40 with OPV.
If you're going for quality, don't go over the 40 threshold. If you are going for size, and want a Q>40, you don't really need D2Sroba on its current state.
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Old 13th December 2003, 19:42   #245  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by windtrader
[B]If you always do the sizing pass, then this method really is no longer a one pass solution; it is in fact 2 pass. /B]
Correct. Just like 3 pass VBR is in fact 4 passes because of the initial .vaf file generation pass.

The OPV + the additional VBR resizing pass is really a VBR encode but using the OPV pass as a .vaf generation stage.

I'll try and explain that more clearly; the OPV pass generates the .vaf file which the additional VBR pass then uses.

This is why the two give distinctive results. OPV without the resizing pass is just what it says One Pass Variable (Bit-rate) encoding.
OPV + the VBR resizing pass is really VBR but using a .vaf file generated by the OPV pass.
The two are really quite different techniques.

All my eyes have told me so far is that Q>40 in single OPV mode is quite poor quality. This is no surprise, it is stated as such in the CCE manual. So what you really need for a high Q encode is VBR. VBR requires a .vaf file before encoding can begin. OPV creates such a .vaf file, so why not use that? Hence the OPV + VBR resizing technique.

I hope that clears things up a bit?

Regards,
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Old 13th December 2003, 21:06   #246  |  Link
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Q Range mode

@Tylo,

I've been thinking of the possible usefulness of a Range Q mode. I expose here to submit the idea to public scrutiny.

Assumptions:[list=1][*]D2Sroba is mainly a quality encoding tool.[*]Auto Q=~33 or so is a good superior limit.[*]Normally it is hard to spot quality differences below Q = ~ 15.[*]When Q is around a value below Auto Q/2, you are likely to get 1 more CD.[/list=1]
Suggestion:
What if we could set a range Q mode, meaning a Q outside which it will not be recommended to increase the CD count in auto mode?

Or in other words: I want my encode in the [15-35] range. If the obtained Q is below the minimum, use KISS (UnDot()+Deen()) and start over again. It is very likely you'll get Q ~ 30 now, using 1 less CD and investing more time but with no noticeable quality loss.
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Old 13th December 2003, 23:27   #247  |  Link
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Hmm. Not a bad idea. You first want a go without filters, (implying that this always gives a better result?), and then as a second attempt with filters to see if that squeezes it into the desired num CDs?

Another way to look at it:
- The very first sample encode in auto mode uses Q=Auto Q.
- If estim. bitrate for that is a reasonable small amount (or %) above the target bitrate for either 1, 2, etc CDs, we add the filters and try again, hoping that this time the estim. bitrate will jump under the target bitrate for the desired num CDs.

Note: this will only take one sample encoding extra.

If this should be done, where and how should the filters be inserted in the avs script?

PS: v3.1.0 is uploaded. Added Q > X contraint to Sizing pass.

Last edited by tylo; 13th December 2003 at 23:45.
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Old 13th December 2003, 23:44   #248  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by tylo
Hmm. Not a bad idea. You first want a go without filters, (implying that this always gives a better result?)
KISS at least is very good at reducing noise without other impact. In fact, the cleaner the source, the less compression KISS produces. (I use it sometimes to measure the noise).

KISS is very good in general, and I don't use it always just because it sucks at speed. But I'd be willing to sacrifice speed for media when doing SVCDs, particularly if otherwise the Q would be ridiculously low.
Quote:
If this should be done, where and how should the filters be inserted in the avs script?
After IVTC and before cropping. I could implement a KISS flag in FACAR, so no matter where you put the "global KISS=1", it would work (if before FACAR, of course) .

However, it would be nice if the implementation was resizer-tool independant. I think the best would be to look for the crop line and put it before that. If there is no crop line, the resizer line, if there is no that one either, I guess it does not matter , just before the ResampleAudio would do.

To support FACAR, it would be cleaner to uncomment preresize.avs, and let the user put there the dirty stuff, whatever he might want.
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Old 13th December 2003, 23:46   #249  |  Link
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Great Tylo will be trying it tonite with my above bitrate idea that probably means nothing anyway.

Now a little off topic but I must say using D2S for DVD2DVD I really must say I can't get a bad encode they all look fantastic actually.
Over the past 3 weeks I've been using 3 movies to test T3, Matrix2, and X2 all in the 2 to 2.5 hour range.
I've tried RoBa OPV with CCE 2.50 & 2.67
MPV 3pass with CCE 2.50 & 2.67
and most recently 2 pass TMPG Plus on T3 and TMPG DVD Author to finish it and it looks damn fine too, just took forever 10 hrs on the encode alone. I have a slow PC Pegasys reports a 35-40% increase in speed on p4 hyper-threading processors, I'd say anyone with a p4 HT looking for an affordable movie only backup solution should definately look into D2S/FACAR/TMPG 2 passvbr/TMPG DVD Author and not ignore them getting hooked on the BIG names...just my 2 idiot cents, me...well still haven't got to my friends high end home theater system yet I think they all look fine maybe I can make a decision on a 43" Sony hooked to the DVD Player via composite video cables as to what looks best to me, we will scrutinize them, frame by frame through fire and explosions the usuall stuff looking for bad stuff.
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Old 14th December 2003, 03:07   #250  |  Link
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tylo, do you class 3.08 as a full and stable release? If so, perhaps it would be good to declare it as such and just maintain and fix bugs that pop up. Then any of this other wormy stuff could be done as an alternate branch labeled, "Non-Stable and experimental release not for general consumption" ? I don't know how you feel about dealing with two sources, but if acceptable to you, it might solve a lot of problems and frustrations for the mass majority of users who would probably find 3.08 more than satisfactory for 99% of their needs.

Heck, personally for SVCD if I see a Q32 over 7.25 megs for a one disk encode I just stop the process, add any filters I want (or increment an additional disk), and do a restart. At some stage the user needs to know a little something about the process. I don't think it possible, even for you, to provide a solution for every possible permutation that might be requested. Especially without breaking something.
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Old 14th December 2003, 04:05   #251  |  Link
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Not attempting to refute my mentor, but several of the features currently supported by D2Sroba came from a can of worms. I’m sure forgetting some of them, but they are at least:[list=1][*]Originally referred to as “Really worst Q”, today named “Max Q”, which eliminated the need for custom BR limits (and their hard coded values into the plugin) [*]Optional sizing pass.[*]Audio after video.[*]Video maximum BR auto adjust.[*]Equally sized images on unfilled media.[*]Video BR extrapolated based on D2S’s for any number of CDs.[*]Newton method.[*][Add:]Range mode reduced to [n,n+1] media.[/list=1]
This “Not better than this Q” parameter is a new mode of operation, which might be called “Auto+”. It needs not be to a threat to current stability.

Software tools are live entities, particularly when they show progress and cover an interesting need.

It might be a good idea, as DDogg suggests, to start a new Beta branch, but for what I know about Tylo, real programmers don’t do code freezes.
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Old 14th December 2003, 13:49   #252  |  Link
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You both have good points. An addition like the one discussed would be experimental indeed (and maybe only useful for few), so I won't rush into it - maybe never..

- 3.0.8 - stable
- 3.1.0 - added extra Q>X test for doing sizing pass. Another change I did: NumCDs take priority over Max Q: If Max Q was set low in 3.0.8, it wouldn't go over that even if it didn't fit num CDs, leading to oversized images. Max Q is currently only used for '?' mode, and could be taken out altogether (it was originally there only to set the search range for the binary Q search algorithm).

The functionality and behaviour of the last version will be frozen. I.e. If 3.10 has no other issues, I'll freeze that.
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Old 14th December 2003, 13:57   #253  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by tylo
Max Q is currently only used for '?' mode, and could be taken out altogether (it was originally there only to set the search range for the binary Q search algorithm).
IIRC, you still need it in '?' mode anyway to avoid the BR limits from the early days. (Unless you have already thought of it and have a solution.)
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Old 14th December 2003, 14:37   #254  |  Link
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Could you setup a link for the stable version on the website?
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Old 14th December 2003, 14:42   #255  |  Link
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I got a problem. If I am connected to the internet and try to start a download, D2SRoba detects the download window as a CCE windiow and messes up the processes.
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Old 14th December 2003, 15:46   #256  |  Link
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Re: Q Range mode

Quote:
Originally posted by r6d2
Or in other words: I want my encode in the [15-35] range. If the obtained Q is below the minimum, use KISS (UnDot()+Deen()) and start over again. It is very likely you'll get Q ~ 30 now, using 1 less CD and investing more time but with no noticeable quality loss.
I would like to see this type of automatic filter flexibility as well because there are some instances also that I find just don't need filtering to accomplish accurate low Q satisfaction, and for you to implement a "if desired Q is within acceptable quality without filters then don't apply filters" option, would be great. Since we've decided that 1-2% sample is adequate then this wouldn't take much extra time. Just when I though this s**t couldn't get any better
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Old 14th December 2003, 16:03   #257  |  Link
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Since not to many people are doing DVD2DVD the bitrate too high on low q's issue has not come out much, how far if it can even be determined has not either, setting a lower max bitrate seems to be a fix but not one I like, maybe good for a calm movie but for instance on a high action movie ie: T3 according to BV I have a max in the area of 8400+ with max set to 8200 and it did complete without the too high bitrate failure but on the same movie 3pass vbr max set at 9000(not effected by the low q cce bitrate misbehavior) the max went to
9600+ ( these are BV's reading so...probably nt accurate but good for illustration)
What I'm saying is that by setting the max lower you just taking away from scenes that could have used more, if it's going to be visually noticable I don't know yet as I've not done a viewing test.
Also you will have a lower avg. As far as the second pass being forced in opv roba to "straighten things out" I dont think that will straighten out the over bitrate in fact it never has.

I did some tight settings to and hit 100% on pass 2
Settings:
- Output type : DVD
- CD size : 4480
- Number of CD's : 1
- Sample percent : 2.0
- Adjust Q : 1.0
- Sizing pass : Yes (if opv sz < 2.0% or > 0.0% from target sz - or Q > 40)
- Audio after video : No
- Adjust max br : No
- Batch prepare : No
- Clean previous : Yes
- Crash recover : No

- Movie length : 01:49:00 (156808 frames, 23.976 fps)
- D2S audio brate : (448 + 0) kbps
- D2S video estim. : 5167 kbps, 1 CDs
- Select Ranges : every 600, select 12 frames
- Sample frames : 3144
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- 1 CD: video_br=5167 (5167) audio1_br=448 video_sz=4224156114. fill=100.0% cbr=0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Number of CDs : 1
- Target mpv BR : 5167 (max 8200) kbps, size=4224156114. bytes
--------------------------------------------------------
Search for Q:
- Estim. mpv BR : 2979 (Q=13, err=-42.3%, size=2435834524., sample sz=48838476.)
- Estim. mpv BR : 4094 (Q=6, err=-20.8%, size=3347008905., sample sz=67107520.)
- Estim. mpv BR : 5876 (Q=1, err=13.7%, size=4804575175., sample sz=96331720.)
- Estim. mpv BR : 5093 (Q=3, err=-1.4%, size=4164147762., sample sz=83491152.)
- Determined Q : 2 = round(3 - 1.0 + (-1.4)/7.6)
--------------------------------------------------------
- Encoding Movie
- 2003-12-14 01:39:54
- Actual mpv file size:
12/14/2003 03:33 AM 4313170356 Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv
- OPV pass result: 102.1% on target ( 4313170356 / 4224156114.) CCE 2.50 speed: 0.96
--------------------------------------------------------
- Executing VBR Sizing Pass - 5167 kbps.
- Actual mpv file size:
12/14/2003 05:25 AM 4223958400 Encoded_Video_CCE_NTSC.mpv
- Sizing pass result: 100.0% on target ( 4223958400 / 4224156114.) CCE 2.50 speed: 0.97


final image 4,684,949,504 bytes a very full dvd

@telemike? using your PC while encoding? not something I'd ever do anyway.

Last edited by syzygytec; 14th December 2003 at 20:05.
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Old 14th December 2003, 16:28   #258  |  Link
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Hey, I'm not suggesting these ideas are not good ones. They are potentially very good if they work out. All I was suggesting is to provide a link to a declared stable version, as well as an alternative 'in progress' version. Frankly I want to see more mainstream users experiencing d2sroba. I think this is one way to cause that to happen. It might be good to even to have separate threads where stable build users can report or ask questions. Dunno for sure on that as I have not thought it out completely.
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Old 14th December 2003, 17:49   #259  |  Link
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OK now more interesting stuff on max bitrate and nombitrate and no clue what it all means. I ran into this making a TMPGEnc DVD Author Guide:

*The combined bitrate of the clip exceeds the upper limit for a standard DVD
The current bitrate is video: 9800kbps, audio: 448kbps, combined: 10248kbps
The combined audio and video bitrate can be no more than 9.848Mbps (9848kbps)


From the DVD Author help:
For a standard DVD, it is necessary with a combined bitrate (video and audio) lower than 9.8Mbps (9848kbps).
With a bitrate higher than 9.8Mbps it becomes a nonstandard DVD, and we cannot guarantee that this will play correctly in a DVD player.
If you are making a non-standard DVD, it might be different from the specifications that your DVD player supports. Please check the maximum supported bitrate of your DVD player.
If you are re-encoding to the appropriate bitrate for Linear PCM audio, AC-3 audio (max 448 kbps), and mp2 audio (Max 384 kbps) the bitrate should be within the limit.
Please also make sure that the combined bitrate for the captured clip is within the limit.


Well now that speaks back on what I noticed yeterday where bitrate viewer said the NomBitrate was 9000 on the TMPG encode, my idea of lower the max by 800 didn't affect this
the cce encode still reads 9800 NomBitrate in BV and now DVD Author barks about it
Whats this all mean? what is Nominal bitrate I'm pretty damn sure the movie dooesnt go over 9848 at least BV came up with a peak of 9200+ and SS didn't fail muxing. So it's reading that nom bitrate figure somewhere
and translating that as the video max.
Man it is wierd. Just some more of my wierdness probably noone reads anyway

Anyway DVD Author gives you an Ignore button and I think it is safe to do so. Just wish I knew what it all means.

Last edited by syzygytec; 14th December 2003 at 17:51.
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Old 14th December 2003, 20:27   #260  |  Link
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syzygytec, forgive me if I missed it. My eyes are hurting today. What minimum have you been using with these tests for Low Q CCE OPV>DVD? I hope nothing under 2000?

Last edited by DDogg; 14th December 2003 at 20:44.
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