Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Hardware & Software > Software players

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd September 2013, 04:14   #20001  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Doylestown, PA in the U.S.A.
Posts: 362
I'm sure you have a reason, but why do you have the HD3000 outputting to your monitor instead of your discrete GPU?
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2013, 10:03   #20002  |  Link
vulture_g7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6
Sure, that's a very valid question! Having HD 3000 as a primary card of sorts means the 7870 is in idle mode for about 80% of the time I spend before my computer, surfing the net, managing files and writing emails. That results in much lower power consumption and heat dissipation inside my tower. Also, quicksync is readily available to lav decoder without resorting to tricks when HD 3000 is active for video playback.
vulture_g7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2013, 14:43   #20003  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
madVR is great. i asked before if i need change anything on madVr options since i have a panasonic G20 and only do 4:2:2 not 4:4:4

1) on madVR options should i change RGB levels for TV (16-235) or to PC (o-255)?
2) on LAV video configuration should i change RGB levels for TV or PC?
3) i have a receiver denon 2309 and i set it for TV levels.

i sold my last laptop with hd5650 and buy new one with gt630m gpu. need change anything on nvidia options?

thanks
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2013, 21:34   #20004  |  Link
soulkeeper
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post

where did you toggle this? in madvr (devices -> monitor -> properties) madvr control + shift + alternative + i or in lav filter.
Ιn ati CCC..pixel output format..

my question still remains..
assuming madvr is making the 16-235 to 0-255 luma expansion/conversion,should i be able to get the BTB and WTW information on my display?

according to this

http://sunmaiblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/calibrate-htpc-for-optimal-video-output/

""1. Luma resampling – Why WTW and BTB is important?

Luma resampling refers to expanding video level (16-235) to PC level (0-255), and as we can easily see that the procedure produces fractional numbers which even HDMI 1.4 can not carry. In order to send luma through HDMI, fractional numbers are rounded to integers.
Obviously there are several problems with such algorithm:

1) BTB and WTW is cut off after luma is expanded.
2) Banding is introduced (as the screenshot below shows). See the above example, the transition from 19-20 is mapped to 3-5. To reduce banding, we have to use a process called “dithering” which generates artificial pixels with luma 4 in between areas where luma is 3 and 5 in our example. Dithering is good in a way it reduces banding, but bad in a way it introduces artificial information which doesn’t exist in the original video.
3)Some graphics card later convert 0-255 back to 16-235
when using HDMI output which potentially causes even more information lost.

The luma information outside video range (0-16 referred to as BTB and 235-255 referred to as WTW) are important though we don’t normally see them in a movie. IMO they provide the following values:

It gives us the baseline when we calibration the brightness and contrast of our display.
It shows that the video luma is not cut off/expanded along the video pipeline.
Some movies have contents with luma value above 235, and as a result it’s recommended to reserve white up to 240 in order to see them.

Finally my suggestions are:

Avoid luma expansion/compression if possible. It’s perfect that our HTPC outputs 0-255 without expanding luma and our display cuts BTB and WTW.
If luma conversion cannot be avoided (most cases), make sure that dithering is enabled to reduce banding. We can use FFDshow with dithering enabled and HQ RGB conversion or MadVR to achieve this.""

Last edited by soulkeeper; 2nd September 2013 at 22:01.
soulkeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 02:07   #20005  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Doylestown, PA in the U.S.A.
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulture_g7 View Post
Sure, that's a very valid question! Having HD 3000 as a primary card of sorts means the 7870 is in idle mode for about 80% of the time I spend before my computer, surfing the net, managing files and writing emails. That results in much lower power consumption and heat dissipation inside my tower. Also, quicksync is readily available to lav decoder without resorting to tricks when HD 3000 is active for video playback.
So, what happens if you add your player to Virtu MVP as a dMode app? I have the opposite setup and madVR doesn't like iMode. I use the "fake display" trick to get LAV to use QuickSync, but I only use hardware decoding when the CPU is running Handbrake at full throttle. Normally I use software decoding, with my GTX 660 handling the video rendering.

Last edited by jkauff; 3rd September 2013 at 02:14.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 04:56   #20006  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
Are there any plans to have an SVP like algorithm built into madVR? I was thinking about testing it but I'm wary that it will interfere with madVR's processing chain for the worse.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 07:19   #20007  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Doylestown, PA in the U.S.A.
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by dansrfe View Post
Are there any plans to have an SVP like algorithm built into madVR? I was thinking about testing it but I'm wary that it will interfere with madVR's processing chain for the worse.
I think madshi has said before that he has no plans to implement SVP-type framerate-doubling in madVR.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 08:06   #20008  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 8,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by soulkeeper View Post
Ι
my question still remains..
assuming madvr is making the 16-235 to 0-255 luma expansion/conversion,should i be able to get the BTB and WTW information on my display?

according to this

http://sunmaiblog.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/calibrate-htpc-for-optimal-video-output/
Don't believe everything you find on the web.
Converting YUV to RGB already produces fractional numbers, expanding 16-235 to 0-255 at the same time doesn't make it any worse, in fact it could potentially even make it better since the destination range is slightly larger.

Output of 0-255 is the best setup with madVR, if your TV supports it.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 14:10   #20009  |  Link
huhn
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,210
@soulkeeper

if your display only supports 16-235 you can set your amd to unlimited and put madvr to 16-235.

in this case the tv gets 0-255 but cut it and everything is fine

it will mostlikely change it to 0-255 it self after this...
huhn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 15:08   #20010  |  Link
bejita7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 25
Quick question: I have 10-bit hi444pp video file:
Code:
Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High 4:4:4 Predictive@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames                : 8 frames
Codec ID                                 : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration                                 : 37s 246ms
Width                                    : 1 280 pixels
Height                                   : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:4:4
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Writing library                          : x264 core 125 r0+2877 3a754e7
Encoding settings                        : cabac=1 / ref=8 / deblock=1:-1:-1 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=esa / subme=11 / psy=1 / fade_compensate=0.00 / psy_rd=0.60:0.10 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=24 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=0 / chroma_qp_offset=3 / threads=3 / lookahead_threads=1 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=0 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / fgo=0 / bframes=6 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=23 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=60 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=14.0000 / qcomp=0.80 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=81 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=3:1.00
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709
When I play it in MPC-HC with madvr and LAV filters, madvr gives 8-bit output.

Is this correct? Shouldn't output be 10-bit?
bejita7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 15:27   #20011  |  Link
6233638
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by bejita7 View Post
Is this correct? Shouldn't output be 10-bit?
madVR only supports 8-bit outputs. I'm not sure that anything supports 10-bit out other than professional applications running on workstation cards. (Quadro/FirePro)

AMD cards use 10-bit LUTs and may send a 10-bit signal to your display, but it's still coming from an 8-bit input.
6233638 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 15:52   #20012  |  Link
bejita7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
madVR only supports 8-bit outputs.
But when I play 10-bit 4:2:0 video, output is P010 10-bit. Or Am I misunderstanding something here?
bejita7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 15:55   #20013  |  Link
vivan
/人 ◕ ‿‿ ◕ 人\
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Russia
Posts: 648
"RGB32, 8 bit, RGB" on your screenshot is not madVR output, it's madVR input. That means that decoder performs such conversion and it's not the best way.
Check that 10-bit 4:4:4 colorspaces are checked in LAV decoder settings.
vivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 16:23   #20014  |  Link
nevcairiel
Registered Developer
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Hamburg/Germany
Posts: 8,962
Sounds like you are using xy-vsfilter, which doesn't support 4:4:4 10-bit.
__________________
LAV Filters - open source ffmpeg based media splitter and decoders
nevcairiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2013, 16:43   #20015  |  Link
bejita7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Sounds like you are using xy-vsfilter, which doesn't support 4:4:4 10-bit.
Ah, so that's it. Indeed, when I play it without xy-vsfilter it's Y410 10-bit. Thanks for explanation.
bejita7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2013, 12:31   #20016  |  Link
vulture_g7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkauff View Post
So, what happens if you add your player to Virtu MVP as a dMode app? I have the opposite setup and madVR doesn't like iMode. I use the "fake display" trick to get LAV to use QuickSync, but I only use hardware decoding when the CPU is running Handbrake at full throttle. Normally I use software decoding, with my GTX 660 handling the video rendering.
Kmplayer and/or Virtu doesn't like it and I get a black screen during playback either in windowed or full screen mode. :/
Now that you mention it, I'll try with other players and report back what happens.

edit - I also get an error message from kmplayer :
madVR reports:
creating Direct3D device failed (80070057)
No similar problem with the VMR9 renderer for example.

Last edited by vulture_g7; 4th September 2013 at 17:10.
vulture_g7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2013, 19:55   #20017  |  Link
Gagorian
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 27
I'm using MPC-HC and madVR to play movies on my 133" screen. I'm seeing some very faint border issues inside the picture frame, it seems like there's some kind of faint inner frame just inside the madVR window, it seems to start exactly two pixels from the bottom of the screen where there's a distinct line/border (haven't verified the pixel count at the other side borders). When viewed from a far it seems like there's slight bending/blurring of the picture frames inside the actual frames. This happens with different aspect ratios and I can't see how my projector would cause this.

Is it possible some madVR processing causes the issue, so that the pixels close to the borders of the image aren't processed the same way as the others? I got some images but I had trouble getting my camera focused so they're blurry, can try to post them or better images if needed.
Gagorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2013, 21:22   #20018  |  Link
dansrfe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gagorian View Post
I'm using MPC-HC and madVR to play movies on my 133" screen. I'm seeing some very faint border issues inside the picture frame, it seems like there's some kind of faint inner frame just inside the madVR window, it seems to start exactly two pixels from the bottom of the screen where there's a distinct line/border (haven't verified the pixel count at the other side borders). When viewed from a far it seems like there's slight bending/blurring of the picture frames inside the actual frames. This happens with different aspect ratios and I can't see how my projector would cause this.

Is it possible some madVR processing causes the issue, so that the pixels close to the borders of the image aren't processed the same way as the others? I got some images but I had trouble getting my camera focused so they're blurry, can try to post them or better images if needed.
It would be helpful if you could post close-up and distant images of the border to get a better idea of what it looks like.
dansrfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2013, 21:51   #20019  |  Link
psousa
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 21
guys i dont know what im doing wrong. i followed this guide: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=80253.0

i have a panasonic G20 and i set the display mode on madvr to 1080p23, 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p59 and 1080p60 (my tv support all) as soon i play movie tv change the refresh rate but i have huge drop frames on madvr ( ctrl + J ). my gpu is a gt630m and only 50% load.

if i remove all display modes from madvr, movies play without any frame drop. i really want to see how smooth a movie will be at 1080p24 but everytime i try it i have huge drop frames, so i still see movies at 1080p60.

do i need enable anything special on madvr to enable 1080p23/24 withou huge drop frames?

btw my panasonic have some 24p option that i can enable but that thing is horrible, nothing smooth so i really want see how good is madvr 1080p24.

thanks in advance

edit: forget, already fixed it

Last edited by psousa; 4th September 2013 at 23:54.
psousa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2013, 03:03   #20020  |  Link
jkauff
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Doylestown, PA in the U.S.A.
Posts: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by vulture_g7 View Post
Kmplayer and/or Virtu doesn't like it and I get a black screen during playback either in windowed or full screen mode. :/
Now that you mention it, I'll try with other players and report back what happens.

edit - I also get an error message from kmplayer :
madVR reports:
creating Direct3D device failed (80070057)
No similar problem with the VMR9 renderer for example.
I think between us we've established that Virtu and madVR don't play nice together.
jkauff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.