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Old 13th April 2014, 22:31   #25921  |  Link
Ceremony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Carmack View Post
I had this error too. I downloaded an obscure VCredist 2005 from MS and it worked.
nope, didnt work. installed these two:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3387
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=5638

no change, same error...
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Old 14th April 2014, 01:36   #25922  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by Fullmetal Encoder View Post
It would be worse since the larger the screen resolution is compared to the resolution of the source image the larger the number of pixels that must invented to fill that higher resolution in the process of interpolating the image. Generally speaking I think that an image that has thousands of guesses as to what should be in those pixels is less desirable than an image that has hundreds of guesses. Unless, of course, there is something seriously awry with my understanding of how scaling is done.
This is not true; the more resolution at the destination the better. It isn't "guessing" it is math.

Some examples thinking about vertical resolution only through the same reasoning holds true to for horizontal.

480 -> 1080
source lines want to display on 2.25 lines of the destination.

480 -> 2160
source lines want to display on 4.5 lines of the destination.

4 out of 5 (80%) of the lines are the same values as the source at 2160 while only 2 out of 3 (66%) of the lines are the same at 1080.

Of course the math doesn't really work like that, no original source pixels are left after either resize (except for NN which is why tp4tissue likes it), but the error in the scaling does decrease this way.

Another way to phrase it; If you are trying to approximate an image it is easier to do if you have more pixels to use to do the approximation, the error at each pixel can be smaller. It doesn't matter if the image is a real image or a 720x480 set of pixels, more pixels still allow a better approximation.
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Old 14th April 2014, 02:45   #25923  |  Link
vaporizer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceremony View Post
nope, didnt work. installed these two:
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3387
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=5638

no change, same error...
openclspeedtest needs this vc redist 2005 sp1 x86 pack: KB2538242
http://www.microsoft.com/de-de/download/details.aspx?id=26347

Last edited by vaporizer; 14th April 2014 at 03:18.
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Old 14th April 2014, 03:14   #25924  |  Link
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Updated the survey/spreadsheet To be easier to input information. You can enter settings relatively painlessly now. It looks like you can't do too much with the forms, unless you created a whole separate google app, which is possible I guess.

Last edited by Procrastinating; 14th April 2014 at 03:18.
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Old 14th April 2014, 04:19   #25925  |  Link
Asmodian
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Originally Posted by Procrastinating View Post
Updated the survey/spreadsheet To be easier to input information. You can enter settings relatively painlessly now. It looks like you can't do too much with the forms, unless you created a whole separate google app, which is possible I guess.
It looks very nice but I have to agree with michkrol. We need more standardization to get easily comparable data. Especially in settings and video clips, that way you reduce user error and confusion a lot. Just an idea, I know collecting and hosting video samples is a lot more work. Maybe just specify horizontal dimensions too; 4:3 720p is much easier on NNEDI3 than 16:9 720p. edit: Maybe ask users to use software decoding too? One less variable.

Edit: at your default set of settings my GPU declocks so I get... less than comparable rendering times. I am not sure how to deal with this except using default settings that do not down clock on anyones system. That means 200ms+ rendering times on some systems though so probably isn't a solution. Maybe include a field for GPU clock speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Also, madVR cannot make use of multiple GPUs, mentioning the whole CF/SLI stuff just overcomplicates it.
Sadly SLI or not does change the results a lot. I turn off SLI when watching <=720p content so I can turn the NNEDI3 neurons up. I would love to know about CF.

I wonder what is actually happening with SLI on? The second card gets some significant GPU usage but much less than the main card.

1280x720p24 -> 2560x1440 @ 72Hz, Bicubic75 AR chroma, Bicubic75 AR image, NNEDI3 128 Luma doubling, No smooth motion, no debanding, Ordered Dither, 3DLUT calibration, Windowed Overlay.

SLI on 41.2ms*
GPU0 81% @ 1097 MHz, 19% PCI-E, 7% memory controller
GPU1 18% @ 836 MHz, 16% PCI-E, 0% memory controller

SLI off 29.9ms*
GPU0 67% @ 1097 MHz, 5% PCI-E, 7% memory controller
GPU1 00% @ 324 MHz, 0% PCI-E, 0% memory controller

*rendering times measured without nvidia inspector open but it didn't seem to affect them.

GTX Titans, 3770K @ 4.6 GHz, Z77 chipset, each GPU is on PCI-E 3.0 x8, 32GB DDR3-2133CL9.

Note: This is with Zoom Player forced to "Single-GPU" SLI rendering in the drivers, not that the setting seems to help vs nothing set for Zoom Player (forcing AFR rendering or something on Zoom Player flashes black frames trying to give you a seizure).

edit: I cannot seem to change the SLI behavior anymore, windowed overlay, FSE, Old Windowed, or New Windowed. They all act the same no matter what I set in the drivers (except disabling or enabling SLI completely of course). This isn't bad per say as the only thing I could do before was break playback.

Last edited by Asmodian; 14th April 2014 at 08:00.
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Old 14th April 2014, 07:28   #25926  |  Link
Ceremony
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vaporizer View Post
openclspeedtest needs this vc redist 2005 sp1 x86 pack: KB2538242
http://www.microsoft.com/de-de/download/details.aspx?id=26347
thanks, that did the trick! Here are the measurements of a A10-7850K APU (with 2400MHz CL11 DualChannel RAM):
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Old 14th April 2014, 08:43   #25927  |  Link
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Added clocks and changed a few things, Google doesn't like moving columns linked to forms around, apparently. Learned regex.

What sort of default would you guys recommend, namely madshi? One which has sub-40ms render times for the high end say, and above-40 for low-end. Maximizing nnedi of course.

Tears of steel seems like a pretty reasonable standard video. If all is decided tomorrow, I can reorganise the survey.

Last edited by Procrastinating; 14th April 2014 at 11:11.
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Old 14th April 2014, 15:07   #25928  |  Link
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480p content is 720x480, not 848x480. (and it should actually be scaled to 853x480)
A large amount of the SD content I watch is PAL, which would be 720x576.

40ms as a target would only be suitable for film content.
I watch a lot of videos which require rendering times to be below 16ms. (60fps)


Does 10-bit content put any additional strain on the GPU for scaling, or is it just more demanding because decoding has to be done in software? (thus irrelevant)
I wouldn't know, as I thought that format was only used with pirated content.
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Old 14th April 2014, 15:11   #25929  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
Does 10-bit content put any additional strain on the GPU for scaling
It does not. Although since its twice the size, it might put additional load on the memory controller during the upload stage, which may however not be all that important.
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Old 14th April 2014, 15:25   #25930  |  Link
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Do you guys think that NNEDI3 for Chroma is a waste of resources?
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Old 14th April 2014, 15:44   #25931  |  Link
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Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
480p content is 720x480, not 848x480. (and it should actually be scaled to 853x480)
A large amount of the SD content I watch is PAL, which would be 720x576.

40ms as a target would only be suitable for film content.
I watch a lot of videos which require rendering times to be below 16ms. (60fps)

Does 10-bit content put any additional strain on the GPU for scaling, or is it just more demanding because decoding has to be done in software? (thus irrelevant)
I wouldn't know, as I thought that format was only used with pirated content.
You do realize, that depending on where you live you might be allowed to make personal copy/backup of your media for your personal use?

It might make sense to deinterlace/ivtc and scale the video to correct aspect ratio if you want to watch it on an older TV with built-in video player or a (cheap) hardware media player with very limited format support and you are re-encoding it anyway, since it was broadcasted at some crazy bitrate and you want to (re)watch it later. And once again it's perfectly legal in some countries.

As for the 10-bit H264, the need to decode in software is the biggest difference, so perhaps a "DXVA-N/DXVA-CB/software decoder" option and always using 8-bit 4:2:0 content (most common) would be good for this tests.

Once again it's not used for pirated content only, you might opt to use 10-bit while encoding your streams to save space or improve quality/size ratio. I hear it helps even with 8-bit sources. It is useful with computer-rendered movies/animations to avoid banding with lower bitrate.
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Old 14th April 2014, 16:35   #25932  |  Link
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Originally Posted by michkrol View Post
You do realize, that depending on where you live you might be allowed to make personal copy/backup of your media for your personal use?
Of course, but why would you not just leave it in its native format? Conversion takes time and resources, and results in worse image quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michkrol View Post
It might make sense to deinterlace/ivtc and scale the video to correct aspect ratio if you want to watch it on an older TV with built-in video player or a (cheap) hardware media player with very limited format support
I don't see the relevance to madVR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Do you guys think that NNEDI3 for Chroma is a waste of resources?
I wouldn't say that NNEDI3 chroma scaling is a waste, but there are plenty of other things you might want to enable first.

As far as I can see, there is zero reason to enable chroma doubling though.
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Old 14th April 2014, 16:58   #25933  |  Link
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Do you guys think that NNEDI3 for Chroma is a waste of resources?
I use NNEDI3 chroma scaling for 1080p content on a 1080p screen, just because the GPU is idle otherwise, but if I need to scale the image itself, I would prefer higher neurons of Luma doubling any day.
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Old 14th April 2014, 17:10   #25934  |  Link
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Of course, but why would you not just leave it in its native format? Conversion takes time and resources, and results in worse image quality.
this forum is about creating backups from dvds. and if you want to IVTC your disc (and there are very very good reason to do this) you need to reencode it. MadVR IVTC is good no question but it got problems with VFR, cadence break/unusal cadences. removing CM out of tv streams is also a very good thing to do you also got deblocking debanding more types of IVTC NNEDI3 deint and lots lots more. 848x480 is mod of 16 this is very important (or was...) for encoding and thanks to croping left and right 2 pixel is comes down very very close.

Watching a 3 gb TV stream with 2:2/3:2/4:2:2:2 telecine deint by MadVR doesn't look nice at all reencoding. it to about 200-1000 mbsaves a lot of space.
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Old 14th April 2014, 17:44   #25935  |  Link
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@madshi:
Blaire linked to your recent workaround (your changelog for 0.87.9) for the NV driver issue and asked me via PM, if there still is a driver fix needed.

I kinda feared this would happen, since your woraround takes the pressure off of NV to fix an issue no one else (besides you and people that use NV hardware with madVR) seems to care about (that's how I interpret it).

It looks to me that they were in the process of working on the fix, but they re-checked if they have the newest madVR version to test against.

Now, what should I tell him? Some technical details would probably be helpful. Also how you (if memory serves right, a madVR user actually came up with the idea) worked around the bug, so NV knows where and what to search for.

Last edited by iSunrise; 14th April 2014 at 17:53.
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Old 14th April 2014, 20:25   #25936  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6233638 View Post
I wouldn't say that NNEDI3 chroma scaling is a waste, but there are plenty of other things you might want to enable first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
I use NNEDI3 chroma scaling for 1080p content on a 1080p screen, just because the GPU is idle otherwise, but if I need to scale the image itself, I would prefer higher neurons of Luma doubling any day.
Yes, I mean for scaling 1080p video (Chroma) on a 1080p or 1440p Display.

I CAN see a small difference in chroma aliasing with NNEDI3 vs Lanczos, but the question is whether its worth the extra 30% GPU hit?
I'm also using Ordered Dithering instead of Error Diffusion (another 30% GPU hit).

I guess I prefer a cool running system (and a low electricity bill ) instead of squeezing every last drop of "almost invisible" performance from the system.
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Old 14th April 2014, 21:14   #25937  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I CAN see a small difference in chroma aliasing with NNEDI3 vs Lanczos, but the question is whether its worth the extra 30% GPU hit?
Only you can answer this for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
I'm also using Ordered Dithering instead of Error Diffusion (another 30% GPU hit).

I guess I prefer a cool running system (and a low electricity bill ) instead of squeezing every last drop of "almost invisible" performance from the system.
But this makes me think not.
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Old 14th April 2014, 21:28   #25938  |  Link
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Humm, this page really makes a strong case for GPGPU on maxwell: Nvidia’s new Maxwell-powered GTX 750 Ti is hyper-efficient, quiet, a serious threat to AMD

Apparently miners are pretty happy with its low TDP, as they said in that url "GCN’s advantages in the GPU compute market are not so great that superior power consumption and per-core scaling can’t close the gap".

I just saw a sale on this 760 but it's very hot and pretty sluggish with GPGPU apparently.

FWIR in a local review, a slightly o/c 750Ti is only barely slower than my o/c 7850 in some games(saving 70W in the process) and some ppl claim that AMD's success in GPGPU was more a matter of luck with their choice of architecture than anything else, very eager to try that highly o/c 750Ti, hopefully it'll get here by the end of the week

Last edited by leeperry; 14th April 2014 at 22:39.
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Old 14th April 2014, 21:52   #25939  |  Link
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That 750Ti looks like the better option (vs 760) to me. A very nice madVR card!

I will wait for the giant die version of Maxwell, if they ever release it.
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Old 14th April 2014, 21:59   #25940  |  Link
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I've been using the 750 Ti since early March, and I feel like I have it pretty dialed in for my needs. I'd like to share my current MadVr configuration so folks out there can get an idea of it's capability, and determine if it's the right card for them.

In addition to MadVr, the GPU is also responsible for LavFilters via MPC-HC. Lav set to CUVID HW Deinterlacing, 50p/60p with High-Quality Processing enabled. I'm also using LumaSharpen as a post-resize shader. This is all under a native resolution of 1920x1080.

Image upscaling: Lanczos 3 AR
Image downscaling: Catmull-Rom AR+LL
ChromaUpscaling: 1080p NNEDI3 32 neurons / Everything else Bicubic 75 AR
Image Doubling: I will share my profile so you can see the range with which each profile operates:

1080p: 16 neurons (Not with NNEDI3 ChromaUpscaling, and it's not used often.)
720p < 24fps: 64 neurons
720p > 24fps: 32 neurons
720p > 30fps: 32 neurons
SD < 24 fps: 128 neurons
SD > 24 fps: 128 neurons
SD > 30 fps: 32 neurons

Code:
if (srcWidth >= 1900) and (srcHeight >= 721) "1080p"
else if (srcWidth >= 956) and (srcWidth < 1900) and (srcHeight >= 500) and (deintFps <= 23.98) "720p < 24fps"
else if (srcWidth >= 956) and (srcWidth < 1900) and (srcHeight >= 500) and (deintFps > 23.98) and (deintFps < 29.7) "720p > 24fps"
else if (srcWidth >= 956) and (srcWidth < 1900) and (srcHeight >= 500) and (deintFps > 29.7) "720p > 30fps"
else if (srcWidth <= 956) and (srcHeight <= 576) and (deintFps <= 23.98) "SD < 24fps"
else if (srcWidth <= 956) and (srcHeight <= 576) and (deintFps > 23.98) and (deintFps < 29.7) "SD > 24fps"
else if (srcWidth <= 956) and (srcHeight <= 576) and (deintFps > 29.7) "SD > 30fps"
Debanding: high
Dithering: ED, option 2 with both boxes checked
Nothing checked under trade quality for performance


I have my card overclocked to 1250Mhz, and boosts stable up to 1388Mhz. GPU Memory is at 1463.

I've been following madvr for quite a long time now, and I've noticed a lot of conjecture towards where the GTX 750 Ti stands in terms of performance. Hopefully this helps reign in some of that conjecture.

i7 3770k @ 3.7Ghz GTX 750 Ti Windows 8.1 64 bit

Last edited by hu1kamania; 14th April 2014 at 22:03.
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