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Old 10th July 2003, 22:51   #21  |  Link
Animaniac
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koepi
Sorry pals, but could you discuss matroska related topics in a matroska thread instead of hijacking _the_ OGM revival thread? This is rude of you.

But this just proves my oppinion about certain people right again

Koepi
I agree that there should be less Matroska advocating across the message board, but when discussing the present and future of OGM, it's difficult not to talk about the compeition. Each format is going to push the other to become better, and ignoring that fact would be a terrible mistake. This would be like discussing the merits and flaws of Codec A without comparing it to rival B (, C, etc.). A better analogy would be not talking about OGM in AVI related threads when it was just beginning to compete with AVI, but that definately did not happen. If anything, OGM advocates should welcome the competition, and help make the format better. Furthermore, forbidding discussion of the competition shows a lack of faith in OGM.
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Old 10th July 2003, 23:09   #22  |  Link
Liisachan
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Yep, what I meant was "It would be great if I could embed unicode-based SSA in (New) Ogg format" and I hope it ll come true sooner or later now that the codes are open

I know I can do that with other formats like AVI/MKV, but it has nothing to do with my post. That was a feature request for the "new" OGM

and, altho it is true that i made a small page to play with MKV, I also made big pages for OGM in 6 languages, "Lazy Man's Guide to Ogg Media (OGM Files)"

Like I said, I ll be a huge fan of _any_ format with which i can do what i want to. I'd say "OGM is not dead" should be good news for everyone including ppl who are developing another format. For instance, if OggDs.dll is updated decently, it is possible that they dont have to work hard for CoreVorbis.ax ; I know this is a delicate topic, but I think, well, basically, there s nothing wrong with having more than one options,
and it is natural that we are looking forward to the new Ogg format which might come with Ogg Theora, as Ogg Vorbis is really nice. (tho, technically, a container and a codec is different)

Go, fish!
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Old 10th July 2003, 23:31   #23  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koepi But this just proves my oppinion about certain people right again Koepi
I personally apologize for this behaviour from our team members Koepi. I dont know what was driving Pamel, Steve was even dropping an email to our MLs about how to behave here in this thread, and even then he was posting about our container again, which really shouldnt have happened at all.

Maybe Pamel was surprised to see Liisachan requesting SSA support in OGM, i guess we were all too certain that the whole anime world was just waiting for us, but Liisachan is right if she as a user wants to have the choice, and we have to accept that.

Again, sorry .....
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Old 11th July 2003, 01:32   #24  |  Link
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Imagine if the XVID crowd starts flooding DivX forums... it would be as justified as what you matroska guys have been doing in this thread

Please redirect users to your threads as much as you can, so you can leave space for the competition to grow


Best regards,
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Old 11th July 2003, 02:11   #25  |  Link
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I for one love OGM, and love the news. I'm glad tobias has given oggds to the open source community for further advancement, cheers tobais.
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Old 11th July 2003, 02:29   #26  |  Link
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it's not a black and white world. i don't think mkv discussions should be forbidden on this thread, but mkv supporters should apply some common sense before advertising (not talking about a specific post). that's it. be nice and considering to eachother and the rest will come along.

imho, having 2 able 'competing' containers will only do well for our community.

nevertheless, i still think that this thread should keep the focus on ogg/ogm.
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Old 11th July 2003, 03:14   #27  |  Link
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A bit back on topic.

We should make a quick checklist of all the features that are broken in OGM right now, and get to work on those ASAP.

Muxing AC3 and Ogg together
Supporting the <color> tag in SubtitleDS

Keep adding guys
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Old 11th July 2003, 03:50   #28  |  Link
Liisachan
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hiro2k
A bit back on topic.

We should make a quick checklist of all the features that are broken in OGM right now, and get to work on those ASAP.

Muxing AC3 and Ogg together
Supporting the <color> tag in SubtitleDS

Keep adding guys
Something that I want to see in the new OGM (I am not a developer, so some of my wishes may be too much or might be silly)

SUBS:
1. <font> tags in SRT(not only color, but fontsize etc)
2. positioning like ASS's {\an}
3. "subs collisions" so that 2+ ppl can speak at the same time in the movie (today's OGM don't accept SRTs which include overlapped data in timeline)
4. UTF-8 support; without which, OGM has no future about i18n/m17n. Many minor languages don't have their proper code pages, but have all Code Points needed scattered in Unicode table. For example, I happened to get a script in Tatar (a minor language spoken in a part of Russia), and was disappointed to find I can't put Tatar subs as SRT in today's OGM no matter what. (Hence I softsubbed in Tatar using another format.)
5. SSA/ASS and coming USF

AUDIO:
1. AAC (already ok?)
2. MP+
3. FLAC

CHAPTERS:
Which charset should we use in Chapters? I guess UTF-8, while SRT doesn't accept UTF-8. This should be unified.

PS. I do love .OGX import/export--one of the OggMux 0.9.5's new features; that is really convenient when you want to mux the same files again and again for some reasons (correcting typos in an srt etc)--especially, with OGX, you have to type about chapters only once. Really cool.
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Old 11th July 2003, 04:03   #29  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hiro2k
A bit back on topic.

We should make a quick checklist of all the features that are broken in OGM right now, and get to work on those ASAP.

Muxing AC3 and Ogg together
Supporting the <color> tag in SubtitleDS

Keep adding guys
I'm pretty sure the audio problems are because there's a built-in splitter, since the splitter needs to output the same channels/bit/frequency, therefore 2 channel Vorbis with AC3 is not allowed. A swichter-less splitter (as found with all other splitters) is what we need. At least that's what I think.
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Old 11th July 2003, 07:30   #30  |  Link
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Chapters:
The chapter seeking algo seems to be of by one.
Chapter keyframes have to be inserted one frame delayed in order that ogm dsf finds them.
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Old 11th July 2003, 08:19   #31  |  Link
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My wishlist:
1- spilt Ogm/Ogm spilter, Vorbis encoder & Vorbis decoder in 3 filters (CoreVorbis is wonderful, so I want to use it also for Ogm/Ogg );
2- Unicode;
3- AAC;
4- RealVideo/Audio.
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Old 11th July 2003, 08:21   #32  |  Link
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The SubDS sources are there already as well? I thought Tobias wanted to release a new version first, 15times faster as the old version due to mmx optimizations

Before you create the todo-lists please take into consideration that the sources are from OggDS 0.9.9.3 - not the latest ones :-/ So fixes which are necessary for that version should make it into the lists as well.

and OT again: I have nothing against competition. In fact I like it. But abusing every possibility to advertise matroska ("you don't need ogm, use matroska, it can already do it.") - especially when competition arises in the special announcement/revival thread - is misplaced.
I didn't forbid anything btw., I don't know how that rumour came up. I wrote that this kind of behaviour is rude. Please rethink your positions concerning me forbidding discussions. I _asked_ for something. that's completely different.

Regards
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Old 11th July 2003, 08:35   #33  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koepi
and OT again: I have nothing against competition. In fact I like it. But abusing every possibility to advertise matroska ("you don't need ogm, use matroska, it can already do it.") - especially when competition arises in the special announcement/revival thread - is misplaced.
Koepi, this matroska vs OGM has been going for a while. We first contacted Xiph a long time ago to join our efforts/knowledges but they simply wanted to push OGG so it didn't end well. What happens here is what happened in many places. The latest was on a Gentoo forum where you can see Monty saying that noone needs matroska when there is OGG, in a matroska related thread. I'm really tired of all this shit and I would like everyone to work instead of bashing the other.

Now if anybody want to compare things, you can reach me to know why I think in many cases matroska is the way to go.
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Old 11th July 2003, 09:47   #34  |  Link
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I am not monty.
Monty even dislikes OGM (in the meantime it seems it is really just the extension that bugs him - the implementation seems to be correct.)

The OGM implementation has nothing to do with monty and/or xiph (ok, it's hosted there now. but noone of their crew will work on it, that's for sure.) I had my troubles with xiph as well (nice flamewar with emmett.)

So don't mix up things here please.

OGM is started by Tobias (-> going back where this thread belongs). It's coded by one from us. _He_ never mentioned anywhere we wouldn't need matroska. I didn't write that either (I only wrote that OGM suffices for my needs for now and I may have no use for it ) OggMux will be renamed and support matroska as well. But you only keep bashing at OGM - which is very weak and I loose some of my interest in supporting matroska.

Could we please concentrate on the topic of this thread now and assemble a todo-list (and maybe find someone interested/with a little spare time in coding the OggDS filters further)?

Thanks
Koepi
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Old 11th July 2003, 09:58   #35  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koepi
Could we please concentrate on the topic of this thread now and assemble a todo-list (and maybe find someone interested/with a little spare time in coding the OggDS filters further)? Thanks Koepi
Good idea. Lets start with SSA ... how are you going to handle overlapping timecodes in OGM ? Any ideas here ?
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Old 11th July 2003, 10:12   #36  |  Link
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i am voting for discussing ogm development in this thread only and create an own "ogm vs. matroska" thread to discuss the differences, advantages, disadvantages (this would be much clearer, fairer and would make our lives (and reading) much easier)

now back to topic:

missing changes between 0.9.9.3 and 0.9.9.5 (from tobias' hp):

- Changed everything to Unicode(tm) to ensure that other languages are handled correctly.
- Support for Vorbisgain tags
- The OggSplitter supports now the IAMMediaContent interface to pass some tags like "TITLE" a.s.o. to the player.
- The tray icon shows now also the title instead of "Ogg DSF"
- Fixed some problems with tray icon, which caused some players to crash when closeing
- Fixed vorbis.dll (the project on the Xiph CVS has an error, which results in vorbisenc to be compiled in vorbis.dll and to get an unusual big size)
- Support for 639-2 codes in the language tag. The corresponding LCID is then reported to the player. ( E.g. English[eng] )
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Last edited by bond; 11th July 2003 at 10:15.
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Old 11th July 2003, 10:46   #37  |  Link
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Apologies

Well, let me express my deep apologies for what happened here. I don't like it as much as you, Koepi (who's currently the only active person on the OGM side).

I explained to all our team why we should calm down on such issues just when this thread started. Apparently it was not enough (especially for Pamel). So I tried to be a bit more convincing on our IRC channel. I hope this kind of things will be the past now.

Of course we both (OGM and Matroska ppl) get our heads hot quickly when something in our field is mentioned. And we would like our work to be appreciated and used as much as possible. But it should not be agressive or by trying to steal users on the back. But it should be only done when comparison is involved not in OGM or matroska specific threads... Let's make the competition creative, not destructive.
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Old 11th July 2003, 14:33   #38  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by DKDIB
My wishlist:
3- AAC;
4- RealVideo/Audio.
i just tried muxing aac and rm into .ogm with tobias' multiplexer and aac seems to work without any problem
read more here

realmedia doesnt seem to work (as gabest already wrote)
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Old 11th July 2003, 14:55   #39  |  Link
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AAC should work if you write headerless aac-streams (which option got added to the latest aacmachine-releases). I wrote about that some time ago?

Bond, can you try using OggMux as well please and post any errors occuring here?

Regards
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Old 11th July 2003, 15:00   #40  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koepi
AAC should work if you write headerless aac-streams (which option got added to the latest aacmachine-releases). I wrote about that some time ago?
i used .mp4 files (splitted by 3ivx) from nero as input
i guess 3ivx doesnt pass the header to the ogm multiplexer...

Quote:
Bond, can you try using OggMux as well please and post any errors occuring here?
failed to render input aac! i tried aacs from nero, faac and aacenc (of course i never used any option to be headerless )
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